User talk:Fergananim/ArchiveIX

Cerball

Hello! Good to hear from you!

There is indeed a bit more can be added about our man Cerball. I only got a short way through adding stuff from Downham's "The career of Cearbhall of Osraige" before I got sidetracked with something-or-other. I got MacCotter's book, so I need to sort out the Osraige article with that. And then I read that the new edition of Ó Corráin's Ireland before the Normans might be a whole new book rather than just an update like the last printing of Byrne's Irish Kings, so that might be useful. There's a lot could be done with most of the kings from Diarmait mac Cerbaill to Diarmait na nGall, but I'm putting any writing work off until I've finished moving and running around. All the best! Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:08, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

• I know, such a shame life gets in the way of our Wiki hobbies! Will write up more on Tairdelbach and Ruaidhri Ua Conchobair before I move beyond Connacht, but the likes of Cearball does need promotion, especially photos and illustrations. Updating Kings of Ui Maine, makeinglist of the kings of Aidhne. Would welcome a look. Am currently working on Mairtine with DinDraithou. Would appreciate opinion on expanded Prehistoric and legendary ancestors in Irish people. Is there anything you would like me to look over? I'll be gentle! Fergananim (talk) 01:23, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Ciannachta

You would think that with all I've read about Munster groups, and having written Éile, that I would be able to offer something to an article on the Ciannachta. I really can't and so will have to look into them. They're one of those groups I've so far ignored. If you will start the article I will add to it after reading around.

The Uí Maine actually entered a recent dream of mine and may have got themselves involved in some astrophysics I was pondering. I recall a green triangle possibly being their territory. I'm no expert on their kings but I would like to see a much longer article on Maine Mór. Plus I don't think Maine gets a fada. The name is an important one and should tell us something about their background. A discussion of this is probably hiding somewhere in Irish scholarship for us to discover, maybe in more than one place. DinDraithou (talk) 19:40, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh and this is 'original' but I suspect Maine Mór and Maine Munchaín alias Dáire Cerbba may be related. Dáire is of course a very Érainn-associated name, but Maine does not seem to be. By process of elimination are we looking at a legendary figure from the old Laigin-Domnainn-Gaileoin block? DinDraithou (talk) 19:51, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

• That's intrigueing, because I wonder was Maine an ancestor-deity; same could apply to the Mairtine. I'll have to re-read my T.F. O'Rahilly. I'm curious about this 'green triangle' - tell me more! The only thing I can think of that might relate to it are the books of Tom O'Connor (priest) but his claims just do not stand up to close scrutiny. I'm online for a while. Fergananim (talk) 20:02, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Ardchluain na Féne and Mucfhalach Mac Dáire Ceirbe; Cian d'Fhearaibh Bolg; Iverni

High Meadow of the Féni no doubt. But John T. Koch in Celtic Culture: A Historical Encyclopedia surveys the academic arguments, the general consensus on féni appearing to be that it developed from a meaning of 'hunter, (landless) warrior' and is not only related to fian but to goidel and a number of Welsh and other Celtic terms.

Mucfhalach I googled and it would appear to mean a place where swine are fed.[1] So 'Swine-feeding-place of the Sons of Dáire Ceirbe'? Ó Duinn's misreading? See Hogan [2][3]. 'Feeding-place of the Swine (mhuc) of Dáire Ceirbe', it looks like it should be.

It took me awhile to realize you had created Cian d'Fhearaibh Bolg because you didn't give me the bluelink. That's an interesting story. But it looks extremely late and fanciful and he almost surely has nothing to do with the historical Iverni and their kindred, who despite possibly lending that one word really have nothing to do with the Fir Bolg of legend. They are absolutely disconnected throughout the corpus.

What goes unmentioned in the more popular traditions is that the Uí Néill genealogists especially contrived it so that the Érainn are the closest kin to them and the Connachta. Officially they meet the Dál Fiatach and Dál Riata (the half-forgotten Munster septs are not included) not that far back in Óengus Tuirmech Temrach in CGH. The low opinion of the Érainn is a much later 2nd millennium invention which has mistakenly been projected back into the 1st millennium. Overall the Uí Néill got along better with the Érainn that anyone else and they were intermarried with the Dál Fiatach and Dál Riata. I plan to point this out when I expand Kingship of Tara further, and Connachta and Iverni. DinDraithou (talk) 16:23, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Greetings

I am looking for at least one editor who is interested in culture from Ireland. My area of interest for the past few years here has been that of the biographies of musicians. I'm looking for another editor familiar with Irish terminology who can speak the Irish toungue, and who might help me expand the text and add references to Rory Gallagher and James Byrne. Living in North America, I can't afford to pay for backdated issues of the Irish Times, and since both articles are about people who are deceased, finding references would be difficult, although I've already made attempts to improve both articles. Would you be interested in assisting me with these articles? --Leahtwosaints (talk) 02:14, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

• I'd be delighted to help. My area of interest in mainly pre-1800, but if you suggest a subject, I'll certainly try to help. Fergananim (talk) 02:24, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Baronies of Tipperary

What about starting with Eliogarty? Laurel Lodged (talk) 23:12, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

• Not this minute, but sure! Fergananim (talk) 23:33, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Photos

Thanks for the praise. I have a lot of photos, very local, but not wanting to pollute articles for the sake of it. I am working on getting photos of places that appear to be lacking them alright. It will take some time, but it is interesting though. I have tagged a lot of geo-coords too, and not to mention, trying to improve articles. Anyway, just saying thanks for noticing. --DubhEire (talk) 23:57, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Irish genealogies

Because as far as I can tell he is the only one of us with both an extensive knowledge of the manuscripts and traditions and access to O'Brien's all-important CGH, I asked Cavila here if he would consider creating an article on the Irish genealogies or Pre-Norman Irish genealogies. He is enthusiastic and has some great ideas but is very busy with real world things.

Obviously you could create the article too. I just spent some time on your user page and found out you have been creating great articles on the important manuscripts, including Rawlinson B 502. Somehow I missed these when browsing before.

Plus I've been following your additions of sections on the genealogies to the more general articles. I hope you haven't thought I was ignoring you in asking Cavila. In fact the next step was to ask you to come in with Duald Mac Firbis and extend the pre-Norman tradition into modern times.

Maybe if you create the article you could reserve a good space for Cavila to discuss the development of the written tradition? There's a good chance he already has something in some state of preparation. DinDraithou (talk) 18:21, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

• Not a problem! The more the merrier, because real life keeps me away from this stuff too. That way, such an article can list all the important manuscripts, including those with articles themselves. I do have an article on Dubhaltach MacFhirbhisigh, which I consider my very best work on wikipedia. I'm not too sure how to trace it on from him, but give me time, I'll think of something. Fergananim (talk) 19:09, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
  • I have the perfect person: John O'Donovan. As far as I can tell, modern scholarship on the genealogies begins with him, with his copiously annotated editions and translations of tracts from Mac Firbis. He also added a considerable genealogical appendix of his own fashioning to his 6th volume of the AFM. DinDraithou (talk) 00:18, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Mairtine

Wow! Brilliant research! DinDraithou (talk) 13:59, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Articles for deletion nomination of Mian Kelly

I have nominated Mian Kelly, an article that you created, for deletion. I do not think that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mian Kelly. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time.

Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. avs5221 (talk) 23:03, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Alexander III; Irish genealogy

I actually have relatively little background in Scotland and have gotten into the Dál Riata only recently. Mostly I know them from secondary literature and a couple of pedigrees. About the fate of Alexander III's dynasty I know next to nothing except that he was the last of them to rule Scotland (whom we know of). In any case the earliest reliable ancestor of the House of Dunkeld was Crínán of Dunkeld. They did however claim to be the "Seed of Conaire Mór", and personally I find this, even without a pedigree, to be at least a little believable because it looks like a much clearer statement of what they believed to be their ethnicity than some forgery of a kinglist or whatever. The House of Dunkeld clearly believed in their Irish ancestry, even if their background may (or may not) have been relatively modest.

You know I love lots of extra references so I may not be the best person to ask about what is appropriate for Irish genealogy! But I notice that Cavila has redlinked Irish genealogical texts at Rawlinson B 502. Or did you do that? DinDraithou (talk) 01:31, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Irish genealogy

Hi Fergananim&thanks for your kind words. I am, however, not a medieval gaelic scholar - and certainly not a "good one". I'm just interrested in mediaval Irish/Scottish (and thus Hiberno-Norse) history, and greatly enjoy reading - and occasionally commenting on - the works done by people like yourself, DinD. and Angus here at Wikipedia.

As for your first question, with "references" I would understand the sources actually used to write the article. If you have used - or plan to use - all these sources fort his article then you certainly shouldn't make the list shorter. I have the feeling however that this list is more intended as a "resource" section where the reader could find suggestions for further reading - if that was your intention I would change the headline to "Resources", organise the various types of works in subsections (general Irish history like RIA etc/ primary sources like AFM and other chronicles/ recent genealocical studies/ etc etc) and rather expand instead of shortening it. I'm not familiar with many of those works listed, but I just now found a useful piece of information in noticing the 2001 Four Court edition of Byrnes "Irish kings..." - somehow I had missed that one, now ordered :). While some of the printed versions of the annals may have better critical apparatus or such, I would still include links to online accessible versions like CELT in such a resource list - I've certainly found the resources at that project very useful.

I'll try to take a look at those other artcles of yours later, but don't expect to qualified input.

Best regards, Finn Rindahl (talk) 11:37, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

The thing about IKHK was just that I - for some reason - had assumed this was a sold out not reprinted book (like "Ireland before the Normans", from what I hear the new print of this on is postphoned from FourCourts again...). Now I saw it with ISBN number and recent publishing year and realised buying it was just one click away.

But since we're speaking about resources, apart from a few online accessible articles my "library" is limited to Downhams "Viking Kings of Britain and Ireland: The Dynasty of Ivarr to A.D. 1014", Woolfs "From Pictland to Alba", Kari Maunds "The Welsh Kings" and following Angus' advice RIA: "A new history of Ireland". Now I just ordered Byrnes IKHK, so the question is: Do you have any suggestion for what I should get next. For reference, here's what Angus replied to the same question of mine in October (when I ordered RIA). Best regards, Finn Rindahl (talk) 12:21, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't look too long to me, Fergananim, but I'm usually all too happy to err on the side of inclusion when deciding whether to add a reference. Dppowell (talk) 03:22, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Merger of Early history of Ireland and Gaelic Ireland

Hi, just enquiring about where the merger discussion notified on the WP:IWNB is taking place?

I'd be against the merger for a number of reasons. From the off-set, I should say that I dislike the term "Early history of Ireland" as a title of an article - "early" to the history of what with respect to Ireland: geology, settlement, written history, native written history, native written history in Latin script, what was the early history of Ireland from the perspective of early writers of Irish history in Latin script, as an independent state? That aside, the the Gaelic period covers a specific topic (i.e. Gaelic civilisation) rather than a period in the history of Ireland. Regardless of what one means by the term "Early Irish history", the two don't coincide either in period or substance. --RA (talk) 23:32, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Good points. There is a great deal more input into the general subjects than editors seem aware, and they do need incorporation. So to that end, I put up the proposal to at least attract attention, debate and input. Fergananim (talk) 23:36, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Discussion is always a positive thing. I've place formal "merge" templates on the two articles and opened a thread at Talk:Gaelic Ireland. --RA (talk) 00:38, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Kingdom of Connacht

Hi Fergananim, well first of all you should invest in Photoshop CS. If you find a basic image from a book, showing the borders of the specific kingdoms for reference, then its quite easy in that program to take a blank map of Ireland and draw the kingdoms onto it. I've found that the further west you go, the more likely it is that a modern day county would correspond roughly the borders of a Gaelic kingdom. - Yorkshirian (talk) 22:34, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Inkscape would be a more fruitful download. It is a (free) vector graphics program, which means it is line-and-point method for creating computer graphics, so it is more suitable for map work than a raster graphics program like Photoshop (or its free counterpart GIMP), which are pixel-based and more suited to photographs. Using Inkscape you can alter one of these maps: commons:Category:SVG maps of Ireland. (Looking at that category, I've just noticed that there is one that might meet your/our needs.)

I do some work at the map workshop. If you need a hand, drop me a line and I'll be happy to give you some pointers. If you want to simply request me to do some work for you then that's part of what I do around here too so I be happy with that also. --RA (talk) 22:46, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Gearóid Mac Eoin

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Yeah, I know! I just had to save it en masse before I began editing because I had to rush to the jacks! Buidghe go Deo, wouldja gimme a break! Fergananim (talk) 09:30, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Christian Malone?!?

This should be right up your alley I believe - someone has identified "Christian Malone" as a Clonmacnoise abbot writing Chronicon Scotorum, see Ireland_800–1169#Decline_of_Viking_power. Since Dubhaltach Mac Fhirbhisigh is a friend of yours: do you know of any identified author of CS? Finn Rindahl (talk) 23:33, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

I remember finding him before, & thought I wrote it up properly. Will take a look immediatly. How life with you? Fergananim (talk) 00:26, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Life's fine with me, thank you - hope yours is too :) I've just started a major undertaking of trying to fix [[Ireland_800–1169 which is in a sorry state... it's going to be a lot of work so I'm almost regretting it already (began yesterday). I'm describing my intentions at Talk:Ireland_800–1169, any comments&advice there are most welcome.

What puzzled me about Malone was that he is not at all mentioned in our articles about CS, neither the English version or the rather more extensive German version. I was mainly looking for some reference about him, but an article would of course be grand.Finn Rindahl (talk) 10:21, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

I thought I had some info on him, but cannot yet find it. I don't envy you on the 800-1169 job, I'll drop over and see if I can help. Fergananim (talk) 13:13, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

No, hang on, I got him - Gilla Críst Ua Máel Eóin, Abbot of Clonmacnoise, died 1127. Two others of the name - Áed Ua Máel Eóin, d. 1153, and Tigernach Ua Máel Eóin, d. 1172 - were also abbots. John Grenhan says that The family was an offshoot of the O'Connors of Connacht, and lived up to the ecclesiastical origin of their surname in their extended connection with the famous Abbey of Clonmacnoise, with a long line of Malone bishops and abbots. The family were also known as soldiers, with distinguished members fighting in the army of James ll. After his defeat, they had to seek refuge on the continent, particularly in France and Spain. One branch of the family, the Malones of Westmeath, retained large estates and became members of the Anglo-Irish gentry. That kinda makes sence ... okay, I got it, will get on it. Fergananim (talk) 13:18, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for finding that guy, "Christian Malone" - hrmpf - just like callong Máel Sechnaill Malachy Donaldson or something. But the question still remains if he is the writer of CS, as it continues until 1150 he certainly couldn't have written it all. Perhaps the process started during his abbacy or something?

Thanks also for input on the talk page, it's a slow work in progress (but I'm learning new things all the time, which really is my main intention - writing wikipedia to educate others is an "intended side-effect" of my own "education". Best regards,Finn Rindahl (talk) 13:49, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for writing that article, I found a reference to CS which I added (accessible here)... I owe you a virtual pint ;) Finn Rindahl (talk) 10:08, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Cormac Mac Carthaigh

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Gimme a minute! Fergananim (talk) 03:49, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Copyright problem: Gearóid Mac Eoin

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Community restrictions

O Fenian (talk) 02:48, 22 March 2010 (UTC)