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"Livity" and "Livity (album)"

I'm confused. I moved the coverage of the album Livity to article "Livity (album)", and in article "Livity", I restored the content about the concept of Livity that it's based on. Why the reversion in article "Livity" to the content of "Livity (album)"? If you'd like to have "Livity" stay about the album, could you please move the text about the concept of Livity to, say, "Livity (concept)"? —Sburke (talk) 07:59, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

• Hey there. It looks like we've had an edit conflict. I've responded at Talk:Livity. (You actually restored the hijacking of the album's article.) Best regards, Cindy(talk to me) 08:47, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

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DYK nomination of Jack Geraghty

Hello! Your submission of Jack Geraghty at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Yoninah (talk) 17:13, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. I responded to your questions in the nomination. Best regards, Cindy(talk to me) 18:12, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Please see new note on DYK talk page. Yoninah (talk) 19:56, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (clergy)

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DYK for Jack Geraghty

The DYK project (nominate) 16:48, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

DYK for James M. Geraghty

The DYK project (nominate) 16:48, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

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Pasadena City College

Thanks. Let's hope it sticks this time. All I know of "Pasadena" - it was a hit record in my teens (in UK). John of Cromer in Philippines (talk) mytime= Fri 21:50, wikitime= 13:50, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Pasadena City College

User PCC1924 has now reverted everything - not only the current protest but the entire section. We (you) need to rack up the warnings.John of Cromer in Philippines (talk) mytime= Sat 20:37, wikitime= 12:37, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

• I think I'm 15 hours ahead of you, so almost bedtime. I couldn't wait - I put {{uw-delete2}} on the talk page. If you're ill, you should go to the DOC. John of Cromer in Philippines (talk) mytime= Sat 22:26, wikitime= 14:26, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
  • I think you did good. Just continue placing escalating warnings. Once the editor receives a four warning on his talk page, they can be reported to WP:AIV. I'm in Seattle at Pacific Standard Time. It's 8:30am right now. My health? Yeah, I think I'm practically living at the doctors right now. Surgery has been postponed four times now. Next scheduled date is April 8. I'm living from day to day on pain meds and sleeping a lot. Thanks for everything. I think you're doing great. Best regards, Cindy(need help?) 15:31, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

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Please comment on Wikipedia talk:Op Privilege Policy

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Please comment on Wikipedia talk:How to write a plot summary

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Adminship?

Well you do have the admin someday userbox, and you do have a need for the tools. Do you think you are ready for a RFA? I been impressed with your work for a while and we need more cleanup type administrators. Let me know so I could write the nomination. Thanks Secret ^account 18:45, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

• Hey there, thanks for asking! I appreciate the vote of confidence. While I would be honored with a nomination, I'm scheduled for major surgery in a couple of weeks. My time on Wikipedia right now varies from one day to the next. If we started an RFA, people might be scratching their heads wondering "Where'd she go?" Things should be back to normal by the end of May. Could we revisit your offer then? Cindy(need help?) 19:29, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Sorry to hear that and hopefully all goes well, I know that feeling of having the stress of major surgery. If I'm still actively editing in late May we can discuss this further. Thanks Secret ^account 04:20, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

You'd get my !vote, and you do get my best wishes for your op. Peridon (talk) 22:45, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Socks

You tagged The Battle of Walla Walla - I've blocked the author as a sock of User:Polllitur (three Ls). He's also been Seringapatam. Looks reasonably persistent, so if you spot any more people posting minimal length articles on obscure battles or wars, it'll be him again. (I think there's an earlier one behind Polllitur, but can't remember who he was then...) Peridon (talk) 22:41, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

• Yeah, I recognized the editor from some work done through another account earlier this month. (When I came back after getting sidetracked, it looked like everything was under control.) Walla Walla was a screaming red flag for me. I'm just 50 miles away and knew there was no such battle in the 1700s. And at the same time, the tribes mentioned are not from around here. I'll def be keeping my eyes open. Hope you're having a great weekend! Cindy(need help?) 01:37, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

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Regarding speedy deletion tag at Maysara Abu Hamdiya

I have contested your your speedy deletion tag on Maysara Abu Hamdiya, as the person is notable and his death is a part of ongoing events in the Middle East and more details are likely to be added to the page. It would be nice if you could give some feedback either as a reply, on my talk page or on the talk page of the article in question. Thank You. FrancisPontifex(talk) 07:06, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

• Sorry, I must have missed it when I turned in for the night. Did you post a comment, ask me a question, or contest the speedy deletion on the article's talk page? Do you have questions? Cindy(need help?) 20:26, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
  • I had contested it on the talk page, but the article got removed anyway. I think an admin got a bit overzealous and deleted it without reading the talk page. However, some other users, (User:Furious Style and User:Phil Bridger) got in on the debate and the deletion was reverted. Thank you for replying, even though the reply itself was after events unfolded. -- FrancisPontifex(talk) 07:50, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

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Talkback

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Please comment on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Captions

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User:2433n

Hi Cindy, thanks for your comment. You said if I had any problems to leave a comment on this page but I wasn't sure where to write it so I just put it here. Regarding the page I created on 05/04/2013 Iqbal Mohammed how do I add a citation about the university he attended? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2433n (talk • contribs) 15:57, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

• Hey there! Instructions for posting comments are on the top of the page. As far as adding citations, they are added in the same way that the other citations on the page were added. You can read more information here. At this point though, it is essential that the article provides citations from independent sources. Feel free to contact me anytime. Best regards, Cindy(need help?) 00:25, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

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• EdwardsBot (talk) 07:35, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Pioneers in Engineering

Hi there, is the speedy deletion for this article primarily about "copying text verbatim" out of https://pioneers.berkeley.edu/home/? Thank you. WinterSpw (talk) 06:32, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

• I have responded on the article's talk page. You can find additional information in the deletion notice on your talk page. Best regards, Cindy(need help?) 06:38, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Hello, I noticed you reverted ALL my edits on this article when you reverted, not just some but ALL. Please point specifically to what I should be looking at when you say the article does nto comply with Wikipedia's Manual of Style. Please do not revert ALL of my edits because some of the content right now on that page is NOT accurate. I am going to make another edit to the article that is similar to the one I made in the future, so please point to things this article needs fixing instead of reverting everything. Thank you for your support. WinterSpw (talk) 20:08, 9 April 2013 (UTC) Explain to me what about all of my edits were wrong. Please. WinterSpw (talk) 20:19, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
    • I'm sorry to hear that you are frustrated. The article was deleted on April 4th due to blatant copyright violations. Following that deletion, you appropriately copied the content to your sandbox, but failed to remove the copyvio. At that point, you resubmitted the content to the mainspace on the same day, with copyright violations intact. Rather than delete that article again, I edited the article to bring it into compliance with the encyclopedias policies and guidelines. Please note that repeated recreations of inappropriate articles by editors who refuse to follow policies and guidelines, in this case, specifically related to copyright violations generally result in a blocking or suspension of editing privileges. It may also result in a salting of the article, which simply means that the encyclopedia software adds a restriction where articles, for example, "Pioneers in Engineering" are blocked from creation. I came upon this article when it was flagged for deletion due to copyright violation. I took it upon myself to attempt to save the article, recommending that you draft the article in your sandbox. The article required a major edit and pruning of the article's content, but instead, you resubmitted the article with the copyvio intact. Again, your most recent creation was a blatant copyright violation. In response, I edited the article in an attempt to save it from deletion. You're welcome. Clearly you have a conflict of interest when it comes to Pioneers in Engineering. We are not here to allow self-promotion of individuals, organization, or their programs. This is an encyclopedia. We cannot allow copyright violations or even close paraphrasing. Articles need to be written using your own words. Wikipedia is not a reflection of the organization's website. We do not allow ownership of articles. The Pioneers in Engineering can and will be editing and revised at will by individuals from around the world. Your statement that the article's content right now is not accurate, simply implies that it is not written verbatim to the content on the organization's website. At this point, due to conflict of interest, it is important that you refrain from editing the article. Please post questions, concerns, and suggestions on the article's talk page. I will address your concerns there and edit the article in accordance with the encyclopedia's goals in mind. You can find more information about the Manual of Style HERE, Conflict of Interest is HERE, Copyright policy is HERE, other guidelines pertaining to the purposes of Wikipedia can be found HERE. Wikipedia is not a directory, for example, the 20 some odd embedded links to the schools that have participated in your program is not appropriate. It is a duplicate of the organization's website. Leave it there, where it belongs. Keep in mind that Wikipedia is not a marketing tool for managing or maintaining the image of your organization. That is what the organization's website is for. It is common for individuals to misunderstand the purpose and goals of the encyclopedia. I came to Wikipedia the same way. I created an article for the organization that I founded. It was a wake up call to understanding that Wikipedia is diametrically opposed to what I thought it was. I am sincerely here to help. If you have additional questions about the article, please post them on the article's talk page. Thank you and best regards, Cindy(need help?) 23:39, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
      • Can I say I am thankful to you, but my question was, and my emphasis is on, why did you revert everything I typed. I clearly am frustrated, because my intentions were to clarify sentences to convey the right meaning. Look at the edits I made. I clarified, not written over what you wrote. I was thankful for you until you reverted all my edits. I can see why you deleted the list of links and the sources and got rid of the external links. What I don't understand is why you are preventing me from making changes that are rearranging content to improve readability. I request you allow me to make these changes. We can work together to edit the article. I am not owning the article in any way. I was the one who created it, yes, but I understand Wikipedia is a place where anybody can edit articles. I need to convince you to accept my edits on the introduction and the background sections so that accuracy, the conveying of meaning, and readability are improved. I am not making Wikipedia a reflection of this organization's website. That was not my intention when creating the list of schools and the list of sources. The list of schools and list of sources were to try to establish notability, but clearly you indicate that Wikipedia's MOS and copyvio laws do not allow for this, so I consent. But when the need to use the revert button (especially when reverting everything when a good amount of work has been done in the editing process) arises, please explain yourself, clearly, and not just say "Reverted good faith edits due to the manual of style" as per Wikipedia:REVEXP#Explain_reverts. I don't know what's going on. To avoid further frustration and to advance the editing of the article, I agree with you on the deletion of the external links, the sources, and the list of schools, but I encourage you to see that my edits to the article's main content, the wording of the sentences and rearrangements, are in fact my attempts at improving readability and meaning. Do I have your support? WinterSpw (talk) 05:53, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
        • Take a look at this report. It is a comparison of your most recent version of the article with the previous version that was deleted due to copyright violations. I offered assistance and addressed specific issues on the talk page of your draft article. However, rather than choose to consider the guidance offered in good faith, you simply chose to resubmit the same article, once again violating legal copyright protections. Rather than outright delete the article, I chose to copyedit the content and the copyright violations, in an effort to bring the article into compliance with the encyclopedia's policies and guidelines. I then applied maintenance templates to the article to identify further issues that I was not able to resolve at the time. Upon your next visit to the article, you chose to remove the maintenance templates and restore the copyright violations. The edits that you made to the article once again revealed that you do not have a full understanding of the project, in line with creating an encyclopedia and following and maintaining encyclopedic standards of writing, editing, notability, reliable and independent sourcing, and requirements for verification of all content. I've offered assistance through links to the policies and guidelines. Rather than redundantly reproducing the content, links were offered for you to spend some time reading, reviewing, and becoming familiar with the expectations of the community of their fellow editors. I remain more than willing to help, but it is essential that you do your part and spend some time learning about the project's policies and guidelines. It honestly troubles me that you state that you don't know what's going on. If you had read and reviewed the policies and guidelines, it would be abundantly clear "what is going on". Note specifically, I reverted your edits because they were not made in accordance with the encyclopedia's policies and guidelines. Most alarmingly, your edits repeatedly ignored warnings against violating laws against copyright protection. Please spend some time reading, reviewing, and becoming familiar with the links provided in our discussion here. Edits I've made have been to support the Pioneers in Engineering article in order to essentially save it from deletion. Honestly, while you may think that your edits are helping, they're not. The best thing that you can do at this point outside of becoming familiar with the policies and guidelines of the encyclopedia, is researching PiE in order to locate reliable and independent sources. Lacking significant coverage in reliable and independent sourcing will lead to deletion. We need sources from newspapers, books, magazines, journals, websites, etc. that have no association or affiliation with the University, staff, high schools, participants, or the program in any manner. We also cannot use blogs, press releases, or articles in reputable sources that are based on press releases, essentially press releases masquerading as independent sources. Focus on locating these reliable and independent sources, because honestly, if this article were nominated for a community discussion it would most likely be deleted due to lack of notability in accordance with WP:ORG. There's not much more I detest than being harsh with new editors, but sometimes this is the only way to make things abundantly clear. In all regards, I remain available to help. Best regards, Cindy(need help?) 04:22, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Books by Dejan Stojanović

I was going to rename the articles about his self-published books and redirect it to the author's page at Dejan Stojanović, but I'm seeing a lack of sources on that entry. It also has quite a bit of puffery to it as well. Would you be willing to do a little detective work to see if he actually merits an article or not? I'll ask for some other people to step in and help as well. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 07:25, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

• Without fully understanding Serbian, I can say that the "prestigious Rastko Petrović Award from the Society of Serbian Writers", is highly questionable. I've checked all the other language articles. This award, even trying an alternative name of "Rastko Petrović Literary Award" appears nonexistent. A search for the "Society of Serbian Writers" comes up overwhelmingly with links to information for Dejan Stojanović. The Marko Car (writer) article states that Car is the founder of the Society of Serbian Writers. The Serbian article for Dejan Stojanović translates "Society of Serbian Writers" to "Serbian Writers' Association" or "The Association of Writers of Serbia", with a wikilink to an article that provides an official website for the organization. I've searched the organization's website in both English and Serb for "Rastko Petrović Award" (or any variation), while also searching for "Dejan Stojanović" and (Serbian: Дејан Стојановић). I can't find a record of this specific award or an honor presented to the subject under a different award title. Interestingly enough, the Serbian article for Petrović says nothing about an award offered in his name either. I've tried looking for copies of the books offered for citations and cannot verify their existence. That said, I am not Serbian. I would recommend sending it to AFD and seeing if anybody else comes up with anything more. Let me know your thoughts. Cindy(need help?) 09:07, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
  • That's what I was leaning towards as well. I hate using AfD when I'm not as fully certain of an article's non-notability, but I think that might be the best option here. Just PRODing it would probably be futile, since it'd likely get removed and PRODed articles don't often get as many eyes on them as AfDs do. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 17:04, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
    • @Tokyogirl79, I'm going to spend some time copyediting and pruning the article to see what I can come up with, using the information Mountlovcen8 has provided below. Let's take another look when I'm done and see if we can verify the content through the sources offered. I'll ping you when I'm done. Cindy(need help?) 04:52, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Dear Cindy, You can find the source related to the Rastko Petrovic Award at the official site of Matica iseljenika Srbije [1], specifically [2] and you can look it up for the year 2000. This was an award for the book (Conversations [Razgovori], published in 1999, Knjizevna rec, Beograd) of selected interviews and articles originally published between 1991 and 1993 in the magazine Views in Serbia and it was awarded by both Association of Writers of Serbia Association of Writers of Serbia and Matica iseljenika [3]. The book contains interviews, among others, with the Nobel Prize winner Saul Bellow, with Steve Tesich, and with Charles Simic. Before judging I would recommend that you read them. Some of the places you can read them at are:
    • Reflections with Saul Bellow
    • Interview with Charles Simic
    • A Few Moments with Steve Tesich
  • In relation to poetry books, the books were not self-published according to Amazon. I would also recommend that you read at least a few poems before judging. I think that this clarifies your misunderstanding, but please try to be a little bit less sarcastic, although I believe you are sincere, when talking about the work of other people in which decades of time and effort were invested and please don’t accuse, question or otherwise undermine, before you make sure you checked the facts; for instance, the fact about the award. Best regards, Mountlovcen8 (talk) 17:47, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
    • Understand that my opinion of the subject's writing and/or whether or not I read his work has no bearing on this discussion and/or viability of whether or not it is appropriate for the English Wikipedia. Understand additionally that the collection of works by the subject have been shown on Amazon to be ebooks published by New Avenue Books, which is a vanity press and only shows that you are the sole author this publisher has worked with. While I am sincere in my efforts to accurately assess the viability of this article, understand that this process may continue to include questions and doubts about the subject and article. The goal here is to improve the encyclopedia, rather than provide a platform to promote of various subjects. Let's make sure to keep the focus on the goal. Cindy(need help?) 04:52, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
  • The copies of the books originally written in Serbian you can easily find in the Library of Congress (or Library of Congress Online Catalog). Regarding the articles used as sources for citations, they were mostly published in the Serbian major daily newspapers and literary magazines. However, one text used as a source, written by Miloslav Sutic, was published in the literary magazine Knjizevna rec and also in the book Odzivi, which you can find here [4]. All these newspapers and magazines can be looked up in the Catalog of the National Library of Serbia (Narodna biblioteka Srbije) at [5] although I don’t think all the specific articles from newspapers and magazines are listed in the catalog since that would be overwhelming. This can be easily checked in the library. In those days not many articles were posted to the Internet, in Serbia, not even now anywhere, although one of the sources about Sunce sebe gleda can be checked at [6]. This article was published in the major daily Newspaper Politika and the page on the internet provides its content. Best regards, Mountlovcen8 (talk) 19:50, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
    • @Mountlovcen8, Thank you for communicating with us and providing some clarification to this article. I will be spending some time copyediting and pruning the article to see what I can come up with, using the information you've provided below. Please keep in mind that since this is the English Wikipedia, it becomes difficult to verify the content provided, when we are unable to understand and/or read Serbian (or other languages, for that matter). While we have editors that help with translations, they are few and far between, stretched to the Nth degree. Please make sure to communicate on the article's talk page, since I will be asking for additional support from you to verify sources. Anything unencyclopedic and/or unsourced will be removed at this point. Again, thank you for touching bases with us. Cindy(need help?) 04:52, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Hello Cindamuse, I am not sure if you are aware of this discussion or not. I'm tied up IRL right now, but hopefully I can get a good look at this sometime soon. Regards, Airplaneman ✈ 23:53, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

• Hey there, thanks for contacting me. Yes, I have been aware of the discussion. As you can see from the discussion above, I was asked to assist with bringing some clarification to this article, to no avail. (I just shake my head at the most recent addition in the lead, "His poetry is characterized by a recognizable system of thought and poetic devices, bordering on philosophy, and, overall, it has a highly reflective tone." Oy vey.) We essentially have a single purpose editor User talk:Mountlovcen8, creating articles in support of Dejan Stojanović and his associates. I have attempted to edit and prune the article in accordance with the community guidelines for neutrality, while working to locate and/or translate any sources provided in order to determine reliability and independence. At this point, this editor pretty much claims ownership at every turn. For the most part, content in this article lacks verifiability, while being primarily supported by sources directly connected to the subject. The editor has offered to prove notability by sending me hard copies of the actual published works by the subject. He has also suggested that I read some of the subject's poems so that I can get a better idea of the subject's notability. I'm sure the editor is sincere, but unfortunately, his ideas are not in alignment with Wikipedia's. While I can imagine that we can establish notability for the subject, we need full citations in order verify the content. We cannot use the book itself to prove or support notability of the book. It kinda reminds of another editor that wanted to "prove" the notability of a CD, by uploading photos of the CD's liner notes, because other sources simply didn't exist. While I generally have the utmost patience with new editors, this editor has no desire to listen, learn, or read policies and/or guidelines for himself. My only intention here has been to help establish notability, but when an editor huffs and puffs unappreciative sentiment to assistance offered? Well, there comes a time when we just need to shake the dust off of our feet and move on. At this point, I am spent. Like yourself, my real life takes precedence right now. I also have major surgery scheduled for Monday. Now that you are aware of the issues with this article and have apparently worked well with this editor in the past, I am inclined to step back. I appreciate your offer to help Mountlovcen8 with this article. I wish you well and hope that this article may be brought to a place of neutrality, supported by verifiable sources. I will be here through the weekend, but probably only sporadically through the end of May. If you have questions, please feel free to contact me. Best regards, Cindy(need help?) 00:48, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Captions

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Move request - Angela Miller

Hi Cindy! Can you please have Angela Miller moved to Angie Miller (American singer)? She is a contestant on the current finalist on American Idol. Although Angela is indeed her birth name, it is not her common name. Angie is the overwhelming usage in reliable sources and on the TV show. In fact, even all the sources in the article verify that it's Angie. The official American Idol website verfies her name as Angie. A Google News search shows over 7,000 results for Angie Miller and about 30 for Angela Miller. I assume the only reason the article's creator titled it with Angela is because there is another Angie Miller article, Angie Miller (British singer), so they decided to use the American Idol contestant's birth name instead of her common name. But they should have titled it Angie Miller (American singer), as I'm requesting here. Thanks! --76.189.111.2 (talk) 15:40, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

• Hey there! No problem. But at the same time, the other Angie Miller doesn't appear to be notable. Would probably recommend researching the subject in an attempt to establish notability. If it cannot be shown, the American artist should be moved to Angie Miller. I also created a redirect from Angie Miller (singer-songwriter). Let me know your thoughts. Cindy(need help?) 16:17, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Thanks so much! Actually, I just discovered that there are three Angie Miller articles. The American singer, the British singer, and... (drum roll please)... the volleyball player. I never even heard of the second two, and I'll bet few others have either. And neither appears to be notable. But with the American Angie you just moved, there's a few problems. First, when you search for "Angie Miller", "Angie Miller (American singer)" does not come up in the list of choices. Instead, "Angie Miller (singer born 1994)" comes up for her. Ugh. The other thing I'm confused about is which tag is supposed to be at the top of the American's article (and the others) to let readers know about other Angie Miller articles? Before you moved it, it said "For other people named Angie Miller (American singer), see Angie Miller (American singer) (disambiguation)", and the link was red. I just changed it (temporarily) to "For other uses, see Angie Miller (British singer)". But that has to be wrong; shouldn't all three of them simply direct to the disambiguation page for Angie Miller? So I have no idea how to deal with or fix either of those things. Sorry, I'm really green on issues like this. :p 76.189.111.2 (talk) 16:30, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Since the American Angie Miller is clearly notable and the other two are far less notable (or not notable at all), can't the American Angie's article simply be "Angie Miller", while leaving the other two as they are? 76.189.111.2 (talk) 16:45, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
  • I just discovered that there is a disambiguation page for "Angela Miller" even though there are zero Angela Miller articles, yet no diambiguation page for Angie Miller even though there are three Angie Miller articles. Hopefully, we (you) can't get all these pesky little problems fixed. Whew. 76.189.111.2 (talk) 16:49, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Another discovery... if you search for "Angie Miller" it goes to the British singer's article. Ugh... again. That's definitely not right. I think the most logical way to do this is to have a search for "Angie Miller' direct to the disambiguation page for Angie Miller. And just leave all three articles titled as they are. But, again, "Angie Miller (American singer)" currently does not come up as a choice in the dropdown menu when searching for Angie Miller. That's a big problem. The only way to get to the article is with the dropdown choice "Angie Miller (singer born 1994)", which is odd. 76.189.111.2 (talk) 16:57, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
  • The college volleyball player is very clearly not notable. She doesn't even come close to meeting the notability standards for an athlete. Someone just created the article a few days ago. 76.189.111.2 (talk) 17:06, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
    • Kinda frustrating hunh? I'll do quick cleanup and redirect all the articles. Ideally, if the edit history of Angie's article only showed one individual providing the bulk of the content, we could just drop the article into the Angie Miller mainspace. As it stands now, though, we need to preserve the history of the article. If the British singer's article were deleted, we could drop in the American singer's article. At this point though, I thing redirecting all the to disambiguation page is the best resolution. As far as the search, we just need to give the system time to catch up with article's currently being created. I'll see if I can locate additional sources for the British singer and if not, we can send it to AFD. Cindy(need help?) 17:47, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
      • Haha, yes... definitely frustrating. And, yes, a search for just "Angie Miller" should just go to the disambig page... that would be great. But then should there be a tag at the top of all three articles that direct to the disambig page? Or do none of them even need a tag at the top? I have no idea what the rules are on that. You can see what's at the top of them currently. 76.189.111.2 (talk) 18:28, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
      • And, yes, an AfD for the British singer and the volleyball player are in order. The volleyball player is less notable than than the British singer, I think. Haha. Just a former college volleyball, that's it. Doesn't meet the college athlete notability test. The British singer doesn't meet the musician standards. --76.189.111.2 (talk) 18:20, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
        • The proper redirects are still not there. Do you know how long it takes for them to take effect? When I search for "Angie Miller" the "Angie Miller" option doesn't appear (to the disambig page), nor does "Angie Miller (American singer)". And I see that the note at the top of Angie's page directs to Angela instead of the Angie disambig page. (There are no articles for anyone named Angela Miller.) It says, "This article is about the singer-songwriter and American Idol contestant. For other uses, see Angela Miller (disambiguation)." 76.189.111.2 (talk) 21:55, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Words to watch

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Angie Miller

Hey Cindy. :) I saw your edit to add back the "As of" template. The reason I restored that sentence to the way it was originally is solely because that's how all the very active American Idol editors are doing it for all the other Top 5 contestants. See the leads of Janelle Arthur, Candice Glover, Kree Harrison, and Amber Holcomb. All of them use the exact same sentence: "She is currently a Top 5 finalist on the twelfth season of American Idol." So I didn't want to interfere with all these quirky little things the editors have been doing in the various AI articles. In any case, if you feel that the "As of" template should be used, I'm totally fine with it, but it would need to be done in the other four articles also, for consistency. Just wanted to let you know why I changed that sentence back. --76.189.111.2 (talk) 21:45, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

• Yeah, we can't use terminology that triggers the flag for out of date content. Never use the word "current", because the term is never correct. It doesn't much matter that other stuff exists. Other stuff will always exist... and it's not all good. The "As of" is an inline maintenance template that places the article in a queue to trigger updating. Hope this makes sense. Cindy(need help?) 21:58, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Yeah, as I said I have no problem with you're way of doing it. But you need to do it in the articles of the other four finalists so they all match. ;) --76.189.111.2 (talk) 22:00, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
    • Go for it! Cindy(need help?) 22:06, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
      • Ugh. First, please put the template into American date format. I don't know how to do it. Nevermind, I'm just removing the template and I'll reword appropriately, without "currently". --76.189.111.2 (talk) 22:25, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
      • Also, did you see my comments above about the redirects not appearing? 76.189.111.2 (talk) 22:26, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
        • I made the edits at the articles of the other four finalists. I used the same edit summary for all of them. 76.189.111.2 (talk) 22:39, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
          • Hey there. Sorry about my abrupt exit. I've had a migraine and went to bed. I think your edits were fine. Again, I'm sorry for the abrupt exit and short reply. Ugh. I'm scheduled for major surgery on Monday and just feeling stressed. Maybe they'll fix my attitude. ;) But at the same time, no excuses. Hope you are doing well. Sincerely, let me know if there's anything else you need. Best regards, Cindy(need help?) 08:37, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Cindy, I'm so sorry to hear about your health issues! I hope everything goes well and things start to improve soon. :) The still-needed fixes that would be great would be the following:

• To add two more results to come up as choices in the dropdown menu as someone is typing in "Angie Miller" in the search box: (1) Angie Miller (American singer) and (2) Angie Miller (disambiguation). They're missing. Right now, typing in "Angie Miller" by itself only brings up these three choices: (1) Angie Miller (British singer), (2) Angie Miller (Volleyball), and (3) Angie Miller (singer born 1994) (the article for the American Idol girl). Try it. I tried it too, but can't figure out what is up.
• When someone actually types in and clicks to go to Angie Miller, it should direct to the Angie Miller (disambiguation). Until a few hours ago, you had redirected it to Angie Miller (American singer). However, an IP editor just changed what you did when they made this edit, which now redirects it to Angela Miller (disambiguation). I think both are wrong. A search and click for "Angie Miller" by itself should lead to the not-yet-created Angie Miller (disambiguation) because there are are currently three articles with Angie Miller in the title. If the the British singer and volleyball player articles get deleted, then it would seem to make sense to redirect "Angie Miller" to Angie Miller (American singer). Does all that make sense?
• The top of the Angie Miller (American singer) page says "This article is about the singer-songwriter and American Idol contestant. For other uses, see Angela Miller (disambiguation)". But the "For other uses" part should be to Angie Miller (disambiguation), not Angela Miller (disambiguation), correct?
• A search and click for "Angela Miller" currently directs to Angie Miller (American singer) (with a note at the top of the article referring to the Angela Miller disambig page). I think that is correct and proper because (1) there are zero articles with Angela Miller in the title, and (2) Angela Miller is actually her alternate and birth name (although not her common name). So this is fine as-is, right? Sorry for all the detail, but I wanted to make sure I explained all the issues clearly to you. Whew! If the rules don't allow doing, or I'm misunderstanding, anything I mentioned, please let me know. :p And, most importantly, please take good care of yourself. 76.189.111.2 (talk) 11:13, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
  • You're being very clear. Thanks. I'm working on (trying) to fix these things now. ;) Cindy(need help?) 11:23, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
    • Thanks! I noticed all the corrections you've made so far. Yay! And I see you even moved Angie Miller (Volleyball) to Angie Miller (volleyball player), which was definitely needed. One thing I see that's still not working is that typing in "Angie Miller" in the search box does not bring up "Angie Miller (American singer)" or "Angie Miller (disambiguation)" in the dropdown choices. I know you're working on it. Thanks for all your help! 76.189.111.2 (talk) 11:48, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
• I think I finally figured out the problem because the search works perfectly now.. Angie Miller should have been the disambig page, not Angie Miller (disambiguation), because the American Idol girl, per WP:DABNAME, does not clearly qualify as a primary topic. Maybe she will in the future. So when you start typing "Angie Miller" in the search box, it now shows the correct four listings in the dropdown: Angie Miller (the disambig page), Angie Miller (American singer), Angie Miller (British singer), and Angie Miller (volleyball player). Btw, another editor put a merge proposal tag on Angela Miller (disambiguation). 76.189.111.2 (talk) 15:36, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Update: It looks like everything's done with all the different Angie/Angela Miller variations, unless you see something that's not correct. A couple other editors have been involved in this, but User:Boleyn is the editor who's done almost all the redirects. So the way it works now is... whether someone searches and clicks for "Angie Miller" or' "Angela Miller", both will direct to Angie Miller, which is the disambiguation page for all four Angie/Angela listings. Btw, I saw your PROD tag for Angie Miller (volleyball player) and I endorsed it. :) Are you going to PROD tag the British singer's article, too? If so, and it gets deleted, that would obviously make the American Idol girl the primary topic, since she'd be the only Angie Miller left; which would mean her article could be moved to Angie Miller (without the "(American singer)" added on). Haha. Or did you decide to let the British Angie Miller article stay? --76.189.111.2 (talk) 20:03, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
    • There was actually a method to the madness why I was creating the various redirects. If the dab page had remained at Angie Miller (disambiguation), it would have been deleted as an unnecessary dab page once the volleyball player's page was deleted. At that point, we could have moved the Angie Miller (American singer) article to Angie Miller. Now, it's just a wash. I guess I shouldn't have gone to bed. (The American singer meets the general notability guidelines.) Cindy(need help?) 22:17, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
    • You mad? Never. You're too calm and friendly for madness. The American singer? My question was whether the British singer is notable. And if the the British singer and the volleyball player get deleted, then the American Idol girl automatically qualifies to take "Angie Miller" for the article title because she'd be the only Angie Miller left. Haha. 76.189.111.2 (talk) 23:03, 14 April 2013 (UTC)