User talk:Ched/Archive 10

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September 2009

Shh...this user is observing The Great Wikipedia Dramaout from Now until whenever. and is probably busy creating content or WikiGnoming. If you have a question, please leave it on the talk page but it is possible that this user may not get back to you until the Dramaout has finished. Join me! You don't need to "sign up" for anything ... just "do it". To include this template on your talk page use {{User:Berean Hunter/shh!We'reBusy}}

click here to leave a new message.

This page is where I exchange comments with friends and other editors. All users are welcome to leave a message. Unless you state otherwise, I'll assume we are (or can be) friends. Feel free to leave any notes, suggestions, complaints, or anything else. I respond to almost anything reasonable, (but I'll only respond to vandalism or stupidity if it's funny). Note: I frequently take long breaks from AN, AN/I, RfA, and other drama related pages. If you feel I should know about something, or would like my views on something, do not assume that I am aware of anything in particular, or that I am simply ignoring you or a topic. Drop me a note here, and I'd be happy to look.

The orange "New messages" banner is useful. If you want my attention, edit this page. If I want your attention, I will edit your page. I'll reply here out of politeness, so I won't interrupt whatever you're doing. If you're interested in what I said, watch this page and find out. If a reply appears to be important to you, I'll likely copy it to your talk page. If you prefer to keep talk on your page, copy the {{tb}} tag and paste it here. I like to get messages, but the bottom line is: It doesn't really matter to me where you leave it, And if you have something to say you would like me to read, the big yellow banner is kind of hard to miss...

Barnstar

=) TechOutsider ^{(talk • contribs)} 01:25, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Awww Man, I don't know what to say TO. That is one of the nicest, coolest things I have ever seen. Thank you. I am truly honored and humbled by this. ;) — Ched :  ?  01:42, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Nah, don't be. You deserved it. I especially appreciated your exceptional copy-edit today. TechOutsider ^{(talk • contribs)} 02:17, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

That's the coolest barnstar I've yet seen :D — Huntster (t • @ • c) 03:16, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

That's the coolest barnstar that I've ever seen too! Royalbroil 03:34, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Yea, I gotta admit, I'm pretty flabergasted here. It does make being here very rewarding, to say the least. ;) — Ched :  ?  03:37, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

What did you think it was initially, judging from the thumbnail and the heading of my post? TechOutsider ^{(talk • contribs)} 16:15, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

I wasn't sure, and clicked on the pic right away - then I just sat there stunned. Just totally amazed me. ;-) — Ched :  ?  19:20, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Ched, you deserve this

		The Helping Hand Barnstar
		put your citation here Pedro thy master (talk) 20:38, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Hope you like it. Pedro thy master (talk • contribs) 16:30, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

[...] (archived)

Look new artical

[...] (archived)

<-- Not at all. In fact, I'm going to give you one of these:

		The Guidance Barnstar
		Awarded for your thoughtful comments here, an exemplary piece of constructive criticism. decltype (talk) 12:00, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Regards, decltype (talk) 12:00, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Well deserved

		The Friendship Barnstar
		For your most excellent efforts in friendship towards your fellow Wikipedians, User:Buster7 would like to award you the Barnstar of Friendship. (note: This is an original "Friendship Barnstar" created, I believe, by User:Ched Davis.

[...]

DR MCPARLIN

[...] (extended post archived)

Paul - no offense, but I have no idea what you are trying to say with these copy and paste walls of text. It looks like something out of some forum or bulletin board - which are not reliable sources, and they don't establish notability. Links like:

• www.caerffili.gov.uk/pdf/Health.../Education-Children-In-Care.pdf

don't help at all .. it's not the FULL URL. If there are newspaper articles about him - just copy and paste the URL. You haven't really edited the article I put in your sandbox - you haven't given me anything to work with here. I don't know how to help you here. I get the fact that he's a good guy that had a hard life, but that doesn't make him notable from an encyclopedic point of view. Did he write any books on a best sellers list? Did he do something that got media coverage on TV or in the newspapers? I can't do this by myself here. Write in YOUR OWN WORDS what makes him notable. Cheers. — Ched :  ?  12:49, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

sorry

• The previous "rap" thread has been moved to: Rap Battle

Money where your mouth is

And here I was thinking you were speaking theoretically! ~ Amory (user • talk • contribs) 19:02, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Hey, I'm willing to stand by my comments ... lol. ;) — Ched :  ?  00:28, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Grammer

Ched do you now something that can correct bad grammer. --Pedro J. ^{the rookie} 22:40, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I use MS Word myself, but I believe that open office, a free alternative, also has the capability to do much the same thing. — Ched :  ?  00:27, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

wait microsoft word, dosent that only work with spelling. --Pedro J. ^{the rookie} 01:42, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

ASBO Lutely, that's why we need apparently human editors to deal with discuss throwers, calvary charges and preforming artists. ϢereSpielChequers 01:51, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

(I can't hold back).... Editor:Pedro, friend of a friend...it is spelled grammar. Thought you should know.--Buster7 (talk) 02:31, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually MSWord does have a grammar check tool, although as mentioned above, it is quite subject to human error ;) — Ched :  ?  19:28, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

FYI

I notice that you redirected the protected page Doctor Steel to the newly recreated article at Doctor Steel (band). I've just asked for some guidance on WP:AN regarding the new article and the many, many, many attempts to get the good doctor onto Wikipedia in the past; you may wish to comment, as I mention your redirect in my query. Tony Fox (arf!) 17:06, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Commented there .... the bottom line is that it doesn't really matter to me one way or the other, although in general I prefer to keep content and add to the "sum" of human knowledge. — Ched :  ?  19:26, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

DYK for 1966 Daytona 500

On August 29, 2009, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article 1966 Daytona 500, which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits your article got while on the front page (here's how) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Wikiproject: Did you know? 11:15, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alfa-Tsentr (2nd nomination)

Could you fix the formatting of your AfD close? The AfD template should go before the header. Also, you didn't use the standard, "The result was delete." Would you please add that to your close? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 00:06, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Will do, give me a bit of time .. have to run out, but will fix as soon as I get back — Ched :  ?  00:15, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Ched, Ched, Ched, Ched, Ched. I have some articles I need userfied, but I don't want anything to get broken... Your rap is awesome. I got nothing on that. ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:26, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Let me know what they are ... may take a bit, as we got called to do an emergency shelter setup. I'll be happy to take a look as soon as I can get back to WP though. — Ched :  ?  10:57, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Your claims

In reference to your comments that I should "not attempt to judge what is "sub-standard" until" I am "more familiar with" your "policies, guidelines, and established practices". Well, I am quite familiar with Wikipedia's codes of conduct and practise. I've been an active editor for over 12 months and have almost 1,500 edits. Maybe you should familiarise youself with the fifth pillar of Wikipedia: "If the status quo stands in the way, challenge it." ~~ Dr Dec (Talk) ~~ 00:04, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

My compliments to you on your 1,500 edits Declan. Perhaps if you weren't trying to twist or "challenge" one of our core pillars at the same time you were raising such a fuss and harrassing another of our established editors over a swear word I might have a little more faith in your "familiarity" with our established practices. As you have now assured me of your experience, and shown a reluctance to have any advice offered to you, I'll gladly leave you to resolve these matters for yourself, and not feel a need to offer any warnings. Best of luck in your endeavors. — Ched :  ?  00:24, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Wow, 1,500 edits in 12 months, I'm in awe. I really do think Ched that you ought to back off this obviously experienced and well established editor. --Malleus Fatuorum 03:08, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Hopefully the next 1,500 won't be quite so turbulent. ;-) — Ched :  ?  14:39, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

You can has thanks

For this. Made my morning. Now off to work... Awickert (talk) 15:10, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Deceased Wikipedians/Guidelines

No problem. I haven't added the guideline tag, because it already has guideline in the title, but feel free to add one if you feel it is needed. However, you may want to work out the "On verification" before you do so. But I think it has wide enough support that it no longer needs to be a proposal, there's certainly no challenge to it. If it weren't tempting fate I'd be inclined to write up my own death page per others. Hiding T 10:57, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

• Out of curiousity, do you think a link should be added to the see also of Wikipedia:Wikipedians? Hiding T 11:01, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Okay, I've added it, we'll see if it sticks. Hiding T 11:05, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
    • Here here. It's heart-breaking to see the ages of some of those listed. Hiding T 11:10, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

articals for deletion

Ched i am try'in to save an artical from becoming a AD, and i was hopeing you could give me some tips on how to save it. --Pedro J. ^{the rookie} 20:06, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Let me know what article it is, and I'll be happy to take a look. ;) — Ched :  ?  21:35, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

List of highest paid American television stars Ched. --Pedro J. ^{the rookie} 22:14, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I've been working on cleaning up the lists, formatting into wikitables etc. One piece of advice I have, is make the lists clean (as I have) and format your references using citation templates. They look much neater and consequently the article looks cleaner. Also it is easier to tell if the sources are reliable if you can tell what it is without having to click on the link. Just my 2 cents though. Hope this helps! edit by User:Kelapstick

• Sorry for the delay Pedro. I would say follow User:Kelapstick's lead here. He is a knowledgeable and experienced wikipedian here, and has salvaged many articles. I think the work he's done here (as well as your efforts) have likely saved the article as it sits now. At this point, I'd say that you want to expand on the lead, even though it's a list, and move the pictures to the bottom of the page in a gallery. If for some reason that it would be closed as "delete", let me know, and I'll restore to user space while you work on it. — Ched :  ?  05:33, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Ched and thanks Kelapstick, for your help. --Pedro J. ^{the rookie} 14:18, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

WikiProject Films August 2009 Newsletter

The August 2009 issue of the Films WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. If you have an idea for improving the newsletter please leave a message on my talk page. --Happy editing! Nehrams2020 (talk • contrib) 03:37, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Assistance

Thanks for the help!! Erector Euphonious (talk) 23:11, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

This is a new login for me!! Thanks again. Erector Euphonious (talk) 23:21, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Ahhh .. OK. Well then welcome (back). Be careful not to violate any of the rules at WP:SOCK. Basically, if you've just abandoned your old account - that's fine. If you are going to use both accounts, you should mention on one of them that it is an "Alternate account". You can read the directions for that at WP:SOCK#LEGIT. If there's anything I can help you with, feel free to drop me a line, and I'll do my best to lend a hand. Cheers and best. ;) — Ched :  ?  23:33, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

I only want to use this account. I would like to opt for the 'clean start' category at WP:SOCK#LEGIT. Erector Euphonious (talk) 23:43, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. I look forward to working with you. (again/still/more/whatever) ;) — Ched :  ?  23:45, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Happy Labor Day!

Dear colleague, I just want to wish you a happy, hopefully, extended holiday weekend and nice end to summer! Your friend, --A Nobody^{My talk} 03:13, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank You

Thanks for protecting my user page. Sorry the garbage from another website made its way here; I guess some people just couldn't let go. Thanks again. --MiB-24 (talk) 02:00, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

glad to help ... I feel much better knowing it's ok with you. ;) — Ched :  ?  02:31, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

ChildofMidnight

Hi, I noticed that you're an administrator, and you have posted on User:ChildofMidnight's talk page. Would you agree that contributions such as this create a hostile and uncivil editing environment (note edit summary)? This could be taken as an effort to "retaliate", for a dispute over a recent edit of his. Maybe I'm out of line, but regardless of whether the content he removed belongs in the article or not, referring to other editors' content as "bullshit puffery" seems to violate civil. MichaelLNorth (talk) 16:19, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Note that I have received this message. Briefly I would say that I personally may not choose that particular tone; however, as the edit summary does "Comment on content, not on the contributor", I don't see a case of civility issues in that specific example. What I am seeing is a sense of ownership being displayed on the Barney Frank article, attempts to tag-team, badger, and WP:HARRASS an editor on their talk page, and no efforts to assume good faith when an editor presents verifiable information backed by reliable sources. To be honest Michael, I believe that your intentions are honorable in regards to your article editing efforts; yet, I have seen many cases of editors being driven away from articles, or pushed to a point of exasperation due to uncooperative efforts by those who either by design, or by effect, push their own political views. I would suggest that all parties remain respectful to their fellow editors, attempt to see all points of view that are presented, and work in a collaborative manner to find an agreeable solution to any questions that may arise.

One final thought here: The fact that I am an administrator has (or should have) nothing to do with my editing here. I offer my suggestions as an editor, and prefer that administrative functions not come into play here. If you'll scroll through my talk and talk archives, hopefully you'll notice that I enjoy working with people and helping them. I try to keep my administrative actions limited to maintenance tasks. Thank you for asking for clarification, and posting to my page. It is a pleasure to meet you, and I look forward to working with you in the future. If there is ever anything I can assist you with, please feel free to drop me a note at any time. You seem to be doing very well, and picking up on things very quickly for a new editor, and you are very welcome to stop by my talk page at any time. Cheers and best. ;) — Ched :  ?  20:37, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. I very much try to be respectful, and am constantly trying to detect and eliminate my own unavoidable POV pushing. I won't bother you with dispute-related administrative issues anymore, and I'm stealing your signature. Nyah. — Mike :  tlk  21:06, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

LOL at the sig. Actually, I stole it from User:Pedro last April fool's day, and rather liked it myself. ;). I don't mind looking at content issues, but I do admit that I've often avoided the political arena. The often contentious and argumentative atmosphere just seems to take the "fun" factor out of editing here for me. I also do appreciate that you try to be respectful - I wish that all editors would follow that example. Cheers. ;) — Ched :  ?  21:15, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Greetings

Hey, thanks for your kind words. After tomorrow, I doubt I'll have much time anyway to edit as my new job (yes, I got a new job in this market!) requires me to wake up at 4:30 AM - ugh. Frankly, I am horrified at the blatant POV and powers granted to Wikiadmins. I thought these dudes were supposed to be "neutral", silly me. Now I think most of them are completely over the edge! One thing this editing experience has taught me is that Wikipedia should NEVER be allowed as a source for research in schools. NEVER. Regards, ObserverNY (talk) 23:24, 8 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

replied — Ched :  ?  23:44, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I have to tell you, I love the pic of your dog. Every year I go to the Amish country and last year I came across a farm with Burmese Mountain puppies. I came this close to shelling out $800, but I had the good sense to call home and was asked, "Are you f'n crazy??" Ahem. I guess. we have 4 cats and a small house. It would have been nuts.

As to public education, my main battle has been with the zealots at IBDP. I am the main administrator of http://truthaboutib.com/ which the IB loons won't allow me to use as a source for the IB articles. But the Huffington Post is fine for the Van Jones article according to an admin. There's justice, eh? ObserverNY (talk) 23:54, 8 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

I'll definitely have a look-see at those links. My mother was a school teacher while us kids were growing up, so I may find it pretty interesting reading. Van Jones? ... I'll likely avoid that hotbed for the time being. I once saw an editor (an admin. no less) make a serious claim that Fox News did not qualify as a reliable source, on one of the Obama talk pages. I figured at that point, it wasn't an article I had any interest in editing. Yea, that dog is beautiful - unfortunately it isn't one of my real life dogs. I love animals, and that pic is one a friend dropped on my page early in my editing here. It kind of reminds me to drop the stick when there's too much debate going on in the wrong tone. In a sense it does resemble my own perception of myself, I might not know everything, but I'd like to think I'm friendly, eager to please, and hopefully teachable. ;) — Ched :  ?  07:38, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Questions

Yo Ched. Do you follow the goings on here? I have trouble navigating all the project pages (like today I was looking into a COI issue and I couldn't find a link from the on the wp:coi page to the coi noticeboard (turns out it's wp:coin) but anyway, I'm wonder about different outcomes and things. I'd like find someone who can keep me up to date with cliff noted briefings on the major happenings (like those the president gets). For instance, what was the outcome of the Abd v. WMC (mathsci) arbcom proceeding?

And do you do IRC? Are there different rooms for different cabals? Or how does it work? I know the admin cabal has their own room. Is it just one or multiple? I think the cabals should have greek letters.

Anyway, just chewing the cud with you. I guess most people don't even discuss these things on wiki. Too political. Anything you say, can and will be used against you. Better to go to IRC where the logs are secret or Wikipedia Review where the teenagers are too afraid to mess the the smack talkers?  :) Fun times.

Is it still racing season now? Has Geoff Gordon won again? Actually his teammate keeps winning right? Why does the track always have to be an oval? That's all for now. Take care. ChildofMidnight (talk) 06:54, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I try to keep up with some of the stuff - some of the time. I'll skim through AN and ANI a couple times a week, but I'm trying to get away from making it a regular habit. I've also started glancing through some of the ArbCom stuff from time to time, but I don't edit there (except in one case where an Arb asked me to provide some missing diffs. Which I did, but provided both sides to the story. IRC is like "chat rooms". It's not really acceptable to insult anyone there any more than it is here though. ArbCom does monitor those things, and if someone gets insulting - they get booted. The admin channel is educational, but it's far from what people think. There's a lot of discussion about how to code up templates, bots, and toolserver things. Occasionally an admin will check in to see what the current standards are on a particular guideline. There's honestly not any "who can we gang up on" stuff there though. That kind of thing is highly frowned upon! There's some humor and some chit-chat (jokes, meetups, link exchanges, etc.), and occasionally some collaboration on how to get article X up to GA or FA. You can do PM (private messages), but even there I'd be cautious about what I said. Wikipedia Review is interesting, I don't read it often, and I didn't signup with my real name, but for the most part I see it as a continuation of the old USENET stuff - just focused on flaming WP or individual editors.

yep, NASCAR will run another 11 or 12 weeks yet. Gordon and Johnson are doing well, as is Tony Stewart. I agree, there should be more "conversation" between editors - I think it would cut down on the misunderstandings. Unfortunately it can lead to some folks crying "NOT MYSPACE", or NOTFORUM, or whatever. Probably the quickest and easiest way to stay abreast of the bulk of things that change here are WP:UPDATE and WP:SIGNPOST. Signpost capsulizes the ArbCom stuff with results, but doesn't deal in any of the gossipy stuff. I have run across a few of the more conservative folks here lately, but they are often stifled from telling it like it is, so it's always best to just remain cool, be polite, and not try to admonish anyone unless you have some pretty strong diffs, and some backup. We're all individuals here, most of which are doing what they truly believe is the right thing to do. I think as long as we try to be respectful, show an interest in the other person's point of view, there's a decent chance of finding a good middle-ground to work on. I like the folks here, even the ones I don't always agree with. So long as folks don't get insulting, I'm happy to work with them. In a sense, I'll suffer fools gladly, long before I'll suffer the arrogant self-righteous who are too self-involved to realize that they are wrong about something. A "fool" has the capability to learn, but those who would treat their fellow humans like "dining room table{[s]" simply are not worth the effort because they will refuse to become educated. Well, it's always good to talk with ya - take care. ;) — Ched :  ?  07:27, 9 September 2009 (UTC) (oh, and NASCAR does run on road courses, but only a couple times a year)

You know it's possible to build a track in a shape that isn't an oval too. It doesn't have to be a road course. Do you get sent the signpost or you check it now and again? What did you mean by "conservative folks"? You mean politically? Or are you talking about old timers or something? Giano has been very quiet of late. Maybe we should bait him into doing something exciting? I could use his wit and wisdom for comic relief right about now. Go add something stupid to an article he's working on and then we'll edit war over it with him. :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:36, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, Indy is more of a rectangle, and many of the tracks are more "D" shaped than you'd think. I personally haven't signed up for the Signpost delivery, but it is an option. I just go read it every month ... lol. Yea, by conservative I was speaking in the general US political sense. I also get along pretty well with the self-proclaimed Libertarian editors. In fact, there are several "Liberal" editors (by their own proclamation) that I get along with very well as well. The folks that realize that they do have a POV, but strive to edit in a NPOV manner are great to work with! I get to learn why they think the way they do, but they don't push their views on me or the 'pedia.

Ahhhh ... Giano eh? To be honest, I don't really know him that well. I know of him, and I've read some of his work - much of it is absolutely brilliant! He is one fantastic writer, and I'll admit to reading through his stuff often in an effort to expose myself to better encyclopedic habits. As far as "baiting" him? ... NO THANK YOU!. I've read through enough history here to know that he can have a pretty wicked temper when pushed. I have no desire to do that to anyone. ;). Drop by his page and just say hi, he won't bite. I see him sometimes at Ms. Bishonen's page, and his wit is a joy to behold for sure. As is her own! I'm really not sure how our European counter-parts feel about our political escapades - I'd rather imagine they have a good laugh at some of the stupidity we display at times though. Giano is an expert on a lot of historical things, architecture, nobility, and FA skills. I've read through his User:Giano/A fool's guide to writing a featured article article on multiple occasions. The wit and humor is undeniable, but the whole good of it is exceptionally educational as well. I try to absorb a little at a time. He's got stuff in his sandboxes that would make some GA writers cry, wishing they could match the skill. Slowly but surely, I'm getting to be on speaking terms with some very good writers here: Bishonen, Iridescent, Malleus, Fuhghettaboutit etc. I've even introduced myself to David, and he's agreed to help me too. YellowMonkey looked through an article for me and RB, and left some good stuff, so I'm looking forward to working with him more as well. I haven't really talked with Raul, or even OR much yet, but in time I hope to learn from them as well. I guess it's the learning, and the challenge that keeps me here more than anything. Onward and upward ... ;) — Ched :  ?  08:07, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm flattered that you include me in your list of good writers Ched. My beef with administrators like Chillum who so proudly fly the flag of "civility" for all to see (at least for everyone else but themselves of course) is that they display absolutely no understanding of how difficult it is not only to write like Giano, for instance, but of how incredibly frustrating it is to have to constantly defend against the overwhelming number of "Randy from Boises", who feel a pressing urge to add every half-understood thought on whatever subject their teachers spoke about today, as they're now experts of course. When one of us "good writers" snaps we get blocked, but Randy walks away Scott free, his ignorance vindicated. --Malleus Fatuorum 13:47, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, I do admit that I had problems when I first started (NOTHOWTO and NOTFORUM), but I'd imagine that most new editors are going to have a learning curve. It takes time to get up to speed, but if someone is willing to learn, and listen to advice, then they can usually become productive in one fashion or another in a fairly short time. I appreciate all the help and advice that I've gotten from folks here, and I'm not foolish enough to ignore the quality of their work. I know that editors like you, Iri, and such are here to write articles, so when you take time out to help me, it's something I greatly appreciate. For me now, I try to look at the big picture - what is best for the 'pedia? Then I go from there. I guess I'm willing to suffer fools more than others, perhaps because I can act like one sometimes myself. I'll admit that I don't get on as well with folks who talk down to me and act overly arrogant. I may not know certain things, but I'm willing to learn. I've seen a few here, and most don't last long - fortunately. The longer I'm here, and the more I learn, the more I understand the frustration that experienced writers feel when their advice, help, and explanations are simply ignored - or worse. I enjoy working with the young kids that come in wanting help; and it's a good feeling when they show appreciation if I can help them. I try my best to stay respectful with folks, but I admit that I've lost my cool a time or two as well.

There's no better feeling. Last year I did a little to help Yohmom, a high school student, get Banker horse through FAC. She was kind enough to say afterwards that my insistence on her getting everything right would be something that stuck with her throughout the rest of her education. Or at least that's what I think she said. :lol: --Malleus Fatuorum 16:29, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

As far as Chillum goes, I haven't really had any problems with him. There have been a few times I've not agreed with him, but he's always been willing to discuss things with me in an agreeable fashion, so I've got no complaints. I know he works a lot at the various AN boards, and that's a tough area. I know you and he have butted heads a couple times, but hopefully those situations are far and few between. And hey ... thanks for stopping by, it makes me feel like I'm getting somewhere here. I know you guys don't waste your time just talking to idiots who won't listen, so I greatly appreciate it! .. ;-) — Ched :  ?  16:05, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the barnstar!

It's VERY much appreciated! Goes to show that I must be doing SOMETHING right here lately - that's my third star in the past 6 days.  :) ArcAngel (talk) 12:44, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

In regards to your comment

Regarding you comment of ChildOfMightnight's page to me. I only saw one editor attempting to add contentious material to the article repeatedly without consensus. When one editor keeps adding something against consensus and multiple editors are removing it then I don't consider those multiple editors to be disruptive. If there is any other form of inappropriate behavior going on then I have not noticed it. I try not to get involved in the content of the debate when I am wearing my admin hat and just try to make sure that the article is not disrupted by edit warring. You are of course welcome to take action of your own if you see anything that does not seem right to you.

In the future it is best to ask such questions on my own talk page as many users have the habit of blanking warnings. Chillum 13:41, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Chillum just missed the personal attacks. But if he had noticed them he would have been vigorous in warning those involved. Good work Chillum. You're doing a fine job. ChildofMidnight (talk) 06:51, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, you are correct. If any of my posts implied any criticism of Chillum, then I offer due apologies. After discussion, I believe that we will both do our best to address any issues that arise in a fair-to-all, and even-handed manner. Snarky, unkind, and rude behavior simply shouldn't be a part of our project here; but alas, far too often it is. Hopefully we can put this particular matter to rest, and all move on in a more positive and productive manner. Cheers and best to all. ;) — Ched :  ?  08:38, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I apologize for the times when I've been snarky, rude and unkind. I wasn't raised properly. Thank you for your help, guidance and wisdom. I would never have expected that from a Nascar fan. Oops, there I go again. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:07, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

HaHa. ... I'm pretty sure you know that I was referring to the person who accused you of "GROSS BLP violations". If not, then you are hereby sentenced to self-inflict a punishment of 10 lashes with a Wet noodle ... OH MY! ... a redlink. As further punishment ... turn that link blue. Until then please use watered down generic, run of the mill, plain old - Noodle. ;) — Ched :  ?  20:10, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Don't back down Chedsky. You called me out and you're right. Sometimes I let the frustrations and the douchebaggery get the best of me. I will try to do better.

I'm adding wet noodle to my to do list. That type of article should be fun, but sometimes it's an aggravating struggle because there are editors who almost always put subjects that aren't "serious" to AfD. I don't know why people think we should have articles on every person who ever competed in the olympics but that terminology should be excluded. We're not a dictionary, but a great encyclopedia would cover the etymology and significance of important terms in society that have a role in shaping our views and capturing our imagination. I think snowpack is up first. ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:22, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Hey Ched. I hope things are going better for you now. The big Jets victory should help.  :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:01, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Best Wishes, Ched........--Buster7 (talk) 00:05, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you all. The loss of our dog Misty was tough, and I always hurt when my friends and family are hurting. My daughter called this morning to tell me that my ex-step-mother-in-law passed away this morning too, so I'll need to stop and express my condolences to them Tue. or Wed. eve. I had lost touch with them since my divorce many years ago, but she was a sweet woman, and I feel bad for those who loved her. I know it's all part of the grand scheme of life, but sometimes it does hurt. I'm doing well, and I am grateful for my family and friends (both on and off wiki). The kindness that I've seen expressed lately by people does have the positive impact that perhaps there are some quality things in humanity. All things considered, I'm doing well, I thank you all, and I wish the very best for each and every one of you. ;) — Ched :  ?  00:19, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Re: Hey Daed,

Re, your messages. The account, from my small amount of experience in the matter, appears to be that of an axemann8 imposter. I don't know how long ago this was, but around the time Axemann8 was indefinitely blocked, various sockpuppet accounts turned up which had names similar to axemann8. These accounts were of course assumed to be him, but later a check was run, and they were found to be unrelated. This means that someone out there was trying to impersonate axemann8 to get him in trouble. Although various checks have been run to try and pin who did it, they have all come back inconclusive, even though they are obviously related. It is only possible from this information, that the user behind the imposter accounts knows how to skirt around CU, and has done this to keep their primary account hidden. This new account is just another in a long line of disruptive/SPA accounts.— Dædαlus ^Contribs 02:04, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

In case you didn't see, they can't edit their talk page or use email.— Dædαlus ^Contribs 05:11, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

They first started popping up shortly after Axmann8 was indef'd back in late March or so. It's possible there's more than one, but checkuser can't seem to tie them together, so the best we can do is smack them down when they turn up and, at this point, employ WP:DENY and try not to make too much of them. I raised the issue in ANI a day or two ago, nothing's come of it, and maybe it's just as well to let it get archived, and simply whack them as they come up. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 05:25, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

"We"

That would likely be the royal "we", used by that Axmann8 impostor. Thanks to impostors, sometimes it's hard to tell the true socks from the socks of other socks. He should be lashed with a... hey, that reminds me - if we can have an article about a Green Weenie, I don't see why we can't have articles about other satirical foods. Lutefisk, for example. :) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 02:28, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

A colleague of mine, whenever anyone would say "we", as if everyone was on the same page about something, would come back, with, "'We?' You got a mouse in your pocket???" Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 02:30, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Then there's the Lone Ranger joke. If you've not heard it before. :) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 02:32, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

My common reply has always been: We? .. who the hell you talkin to .. I don't speak no French. ;) — Ched :  ?  02:34, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

We, mein sewer. Speaking of which, both of the impostors seen so far tonight have already been sent to the wiki sanitation plant. I reported the first one, and then someone ambushed the second one before I even had a chance. Which takes me back to the Lone Ranger, riding across the plains with Tonto, and (to shorten the story) suddenly finding themselves with Indians in all directions. "Tonto, we're surrounded!" -- "What you mean, 'we', paleface!" Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 02:38, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the impostors were both cooked in short order.

"Kemo sabe" may be more politically correct, but "paleface" drives home the point of the joke. The irony is that the Masked Man was a defender of the Indians, so if he found himself surrounded, they would probably just make him the guest of honor as they broke for lunch. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 02:59, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm guessing that guy went through someone's contribs list (maybe mine) and posted to the first few users he found on it. OK, so the next time I'm about to turn someone in to WP:AIV for obvious socking, harassment, vandalism, etc., should I send it your way instead, if you're online? Then you could knock that softball out of the park and into the wiki-showers. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 03:11, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Yea .. had to be. I've only done like 2 SPIs .. both from what I saw on your page. You have some real fans there Bugs. ;) — Ched :  ?  03:16, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Meh, all those socks are mine. I exist solely to frustrate and demean Bugs ;) — Huntster (t @ c) 04:22, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Be vewy, vewy quiet... He's huntsting wabbits... Heh-heh-heh-heh! Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 04:27, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Groucho

If you could use a laugh or two after a long week, here are some Groucho clips I found.

As a guest panelist on "What's My Line?", late 1950s or so

As a guest on "I've Got a Secret", 1959

On the Dick Cavett show, ca. 1969

Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 03:17, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Bugs .. you have no idea how much I need a laugh this week. In real life ... it's been one of the worst I've ever had. I'm trying to concentrate on WP to keep my mind off things, but there's just been to much death in my life the past week. Thanks for the links ... I'm not sure how you knew I need that ... but I truly appreciate it! — Ched :  ?  03:25, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Watch for an e-mail shortly. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 03:35, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

OK, one more, a little medley of clips of 4 classic comics on Carson: [1] Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 03:42, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm so sorry to read about your recent losses Ched. You know there's always a channel open if you need one. And Bugs, those were fantastic clips :) — Huntster (t @ c) 04:37, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Youtube is the television gods' gift to mankind. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 04:54, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Bugs. I emailed back too .. kinda silly, and I thank you for being there. ;) — Ched :  ?  05:02, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I saw. Not silly at all. I'll get back. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 05:04, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the star for the e-mail. :) Pushing my luck a bit, I sent you another. :) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 23:41, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Always glad to get email from my friends. ;) ... I'll read it shortly. — Ched :  ?  23:48, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

You don't have to read it "shortly". You could always put elevator shoes on. :) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 00:02, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

If you need anything

Hey Ched. If you need anything (including a sounding board) let me know. Email is always open too. Have a better weekend. kelapstick (talk) 04:15, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Ched, it was fun checking out the diffs where you got punked by a Malleus impersonator. :) It's a good thing you stayed cool. You still came off looking good. ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:43, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry folks ...

Look, I'm being a bit of a drama queen here. Bad week, and I apologize for bringing it "on-wiki". No big deal. There are a LOT of folks out there that suffer much worse every day. I am truly grateful for the the kind words and support ... I promise ... I'll focus on content. ;) Onward and upward. — Ched :  ?  05:00, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Pfft, hardly being a drama queen. Everyone has times like these...if you recall, I just went through my own period of feeling down and out. So don't worry about it. — Huntster (t @ c) 09:15, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

September 2009

This is the last warning you will receive for your disruptive edits.
Your continued joking is disruptive and considered vandalism. You will be blocked from editing Wikipedia the next time you do so. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 00:22, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Awwww man! ... I thought WP wuz supposed to be FUN! ... (cont. at JC talk) — Ched :  ?  00:27, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Hey, look at the bright side - he won't be sending you any more warnings. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 00:31, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

<chuckling> Hey ... If we can find some hurricane somewhere .. that ought to keep him busy. hmmmm ... "hurricane" ... "storm warnings" ... surely there's something punny there somewhere. ;) — Ched :  ?  00:40, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

One unique thing about a hurricane is that while much of it is violent, it's quiet in the exact center, where the "I" is. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 00:51, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, I can "sea" that at least it wasn't a long "winded" pun ... snicker, snicker. — Ched :  ?  00:54, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm running out of ideas. I might be getting tired and unfocused. I'll come back later, when I have the storm's urge. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 01:20, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

OK, I admit it ... I couldn't come up with anything. Perhaps I'll have a gust of inspiration later. ;) — Ched :  ?  00:23, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

</random page stalking> XD Wow...so many fail puns on one page...watch out for Chuck Norris O_O Cheers, I'^mperator 01:15, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

hey.  ;) ... all are welcome here IE, never fear that. I do love Bugs' humor, although I'm not as good at it. I do get a kick out of Norris though .. (boooo). Actually I did meet him once. I used to study his style, and attended a seminar he gave. That was quite a few years ago, but as tough as he is as a teach and class leader (I was exhausted and hurt in places I didn't know I had after that weekend), he is an extremely nice guy. Anyway ... look forward to seeing you around. ;) — Ched :  ?  10:55, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

DYK for 1966 in NASCAR

On September 13, 2009, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article 1966 in NASCAR, which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits your article got while on the front page (here's how) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Wikiproject: Did you know? 00:28, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

note

thank you for caring re: my loss. DS (talk) 12:48, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I know it will be hard, and something you'll never forget; but I hope that time will help heal the hurt I'm sure you feel DS. My heart and prayers go out to you. — Ched :  ?  00:11, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Clean up

Hey ched, I'm working a bit on an artical that needs clean up and i do not know or am very good at it, so may you know some onw who could help me. --Pedro J. ^{the rookie} 17:43, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Hey, give me a link and I'll be happy to take a look at it buddy. — Ched :  ?  01:42, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

The Artical is Bill Clinton,(is it wierd that i edit a primetime cartoon comedy and a former president artical) LOL =D. --Pedro J. ^{the rookie} 13:50, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Umm ... wow, yea I gotta admit that you caught me off guard with that one. Not because you have other interests (comedy, cartoons, etc), but because I hadn't imagined that US Political WP:BLP articles were something you'd be interested in. I'd imagine that most of the folks here have a very wide range of interests - myself, I like many sports related things, computer and technology items, sci-fi, TV, movies, science, US history, CERT, and emergency responders, etc. etc. I watch and read a lot of the political things, but tend to avoid them just because there is so much POV, contentious, blatant promotional, whitewashing, and slander involved. Clinton has a lot of eyes on that article - so I'm a bit curious what kind of "Clean up" you feel it needs? I can usually do OK at just copy-editing, but if you're looking to get a NPOV issue looked at - not sure how much help I could be. To be honest, I very much like to see editors outside the US working on US Political articles - I think it give things a much more balanced and NPOV slant to them.

OK, back to your original question on the folks that I am personally aware of here who are good at things. I think that User:Fuhghettaboutit is prolly one of the best pure copy-editing writers I know, as is Sift & Willow. From the quality article end of things, there are several: Bishonen, Malleus, Iridescent, YellowMonkey, Raul, Ottava, Giano, and Tony1, all come to mind. From a NPOV standpoint, I think Huntster, Royalbroil, Baseball Bugs, SoWhy, Neuro, and Protonk all do great work. On the BLP side, I'd say that Lara, MZM, lar, and Magioladitis are probably who you want to talk to. If you have a copy-vio or plagiarism issue, Moonriddengirl is the one to talk to. Photography? ... See Fir0002 or Royalbroil (or I'll look). There are a ton of other editors here as well that I think very very highly of, each with different strong-points.

Give me an idea on what you think needs "Cleaned up" and I'll try to get things going in that direction, or point you to someone who might be able to help. — Ched :  ?  04:39, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I feel left out! Just kidding, carry on... –Juliancolton | ^Talk 11:34, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

hmmmm.... Hurricane = long-winded > Clinton US Politician. Sea-men > semen = Clinton. My bad = facepalm. Now that I think of it, Julian should have been my first choice. ;P Well, that should ensure that I'm not getting much fan mail from a LOT of folks. :O

Actually Pedro, JC is right ... he has a ton of GA and FA work under his belt, and is an excellent writer and very NPOV. (Ched hopes he'll be forgiven ;)) — Ched :  ?  12:35, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

LOL, well what i am looking to do is fix any grammer error that it may have, yeah i would think that is defined as copy-edit right?.--Pedro J. ^{the rookie} 12:58, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I'll take a look later this evening and see if there's anything productive I can do. ;) — Ched :  ?  14:21, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

WP:FILM September Election Voting

The September 2009 project coordinator election has begun. We will be selecting seven coordinators from a pool of candidates to serve for the next six months; members can still nominate themselves if interested. Please vote here by September 28! This message has been sent as you are registered as an active member of the project. --Happy editing! Nehrams2020 (talk • contrib) 01:34, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Ahoy, matey!

Avast! Have yerself a happy International Talk Like a Pirate Day, me hearties. Ye landlubbers best be a-speakin' the pirate language o'er the next 20 hours or so, else be forced to walk the plank and sent into the depths, ye scurvy dog! yo ho ho! –Juliancolton | ^Talk 02:25, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Edit war with a vandal.

User talk:MickMacNee Hell In A Bucket (talk) 16:24, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

NM blocked.Hell In A Bucket (talk) 16:25, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Ummm ... OK. I'm not sure how to respond. Are you asking me to review and request an unblock? I'm not familiar with the situation at the moment, but will try to find time today to look into things if that's what you are requesting. My understanding is that normally it is best to discuss the matter with the blocking administrator first, and if you're asking me to do that - I will do so. If you're just updating me on the information, then I thank you. Perhaps when I get a chance, I'll take a look, and have a better idea on what (if anything) could or should be done. Thanks again for the info. — Ched :  ?  16:45, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

No, maybe discussing with the user why his edits were innappropriate. I also posted a couple of questions regarding the situaiton on User:Black Kite regarding my own actions if you can help shed some light on them I'd appreciate. Always a learning process here. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 16:48, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Ahhh ... ok. I did look very quickly, and my first thoughts are that I'm not active in any of the Irish/Ireland projects, so I'm not sure what I could contribute. I also don't know that MickMacNee would consider my input with any more weight than any other editor here. I've seen him in a thread or two, but don't recall that we've ever been on especially great terms that he'd value my thoughts. I've agreed with him on occasion (an XfD or two IIRC), and disagreed with him as well (RfA IIRC). In looking at his most recent response on his talk page, I'd be inclined to think that he is rather upset at the moment, and perhaps it's not the best time to approach the matter directly. I will review a bit more material when time permits, and if I feel I can add anything of value, I will try. Thanks for the input. Cheers and best. ;) — Ched :  ?  16:55, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

User:ObserverNY

I can live with an unblock. The attitude does need to be adjusted though, and the buddies are feeding off each other. My bigger concern is that the user talk page is quickly devolving into an inappropriate forum for random discussion, and that sort of attitude is being spread everywhere. Honestly, though, one more comment like "should I wash your feet too?" and I have no problem throwing away the editing privileges again. People who want to play in controversial areas need to really be on their best behavior. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 20:32, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Ched- Is there a section in Wikipedia for .jpeg's to be uploaded for inclusion in articles? I have suggested including the TIME magazine cover [2] of Glenn Beck for the article. Unfortunately, I was met with a sort of non-response and request guidance as to how to proceed. Thanks. ObserverNY (talk) 10:47, 21 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Ok, I uploaded this: [3] but I don't want to proceed any further and possibly violate any WP policy. Please advise. ObserverNY (talk) 12:10, 21 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Hmm ... just got up here. Ahhh ... Wikipedia:Non-free content would be the policy that would cover this. I don't know if that mag. cover would qualify. User:Moonriddengirl knows a ton about copy-vio stuff - she may be able to help. That kind of thing isn't one of my strongest suits - and I only upload pics that I take myself. I'll check into it as soon as I can though. — Ched :  ?  12:41, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Ched. Thought it would make a nice addition to the Glenn Beck page but don't want to push the envelope in case it is unjustified. (walking on eggshells) ObserverNY (talk) 12:51, 21 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Ricky81682 - Actually, I was preparing a case for submission on ObserverNY when he was banned the first time. The reason it took so long was there were so many rude and quite frankly disgusting remarks that the editor made it was getting bloated and hard to whittle it down to those that were simply plain obnoxious. However, ONY was blocked and unblocked and that's your decisions. However, I hope I can hold you to: Honestly, though, one more comment like "should I wash your feet too?" and I have no problem throwing away the editing privileges again.

I'll come knocking on your door if it happens again. --Candy (talk) 21:49, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh look. Candy is talking smack about me. I'm a she, not a he, but I won't call you sexist for referring to me as a he, the way you did me when I referred to you as "her". Why are you trying to start trouble, Candorwein? Hmmmm? ObserverNY (talk) 23:07, 27 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

• I strongly advise that everyone take one step back from the keyboard! Nothing good is going to come from bickering here. Please read WP:Plaxico. Folks that go looking to get someone in trouble, often find themselves on the wrong end of things. Folks that start responding to "comments" often find themselves embroiled in more problems than they would have if they would have simply ignored the comment. Concentrate on content and not on editors. Pay attention to your own back yard, and you'll find a lot less trouble here. The big dog has spoken. — Ched :  ?  23:20, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

May I at least offer you a nice doggie biscuit? ;-) ObserverNY (talk) 23:52, 27 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Train wreck

Check out this guy's attitude. Cptnono (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). I don't see the point in removing cited information from an article on the grounds he's claiming. I also don't see the point in comments like "get over it" and "arguing just to be arguing", i.e. that I don't agree with his viewpoint on things. Maybe I should have him read WP:OWN? →Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 06:46, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

I could ask you to check out baseball Bugs attitude as well. His comments have not been constructive. Regardless, I created a disambiguation page for train wreck after mentioning it on the talk page and asking for assistance at the help desk. Now there is an article for "train wreck" and a disambiguation page for the term. Both need improvement. If my attitude is what is disputed instead of the action let me know. I will more than likely counter with what I feel was a dig by Baseball Bugs but that really won't do anything but shift blame around for something as ridiculous as getting bent out of shape over a non controversial article. There has got to be a pun in her somewhere. Also, it would be more appropriate for any administrative actions to go to a noticeboard instead of a particular administrator. This would eleveate any potential requested or actual favortism concerns.Cptnono (talk) 07:17, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

I mostly posted this so Ched wouldn't think I forgot about him. "A pun in her"? I'm a male, the last time I checked. Captain No-No has removed cited content from the main article and replaced it with nothing useful. I just wondered what a good approach would be, short of an edit war over a very small matter, that if taken to a noticeboard would probably be laughed away. →Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 07:21, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

In any case, you notified the wrong administrator. Expect to find the article full-protected and yourselves blocked for edit warring once Ched comes online. decltype (talk) 08:25, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

I am confident that Ched will do what's right, and that he won't let our lifelong friendship and our mutual investment in a gold, silver and platinum mine get in the way of good judgment regarding wikipedia administration. →Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 08:29, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

If he blocks for a single revert or only takes into account a lifelong friendship he isn't doing the project any service. I won't even worry about that until that unlikely bridge is crossed. That is seriously a bad game to start playing.Cptnono (talk) 08:35, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

For what it's worth Bugs, it might be best to notify another administrator about this issue, given the fact that a) You seem to be involved in the dispute with Cptnono and b) Ched is a friend of yours. Perhaps posting a notice on ANI would be the best idea. Steven Zhang ^{The clock is ticking....} 08:38, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

That was my point up above. If there is a continued concern it should be at a noticeboard and not an individual's talk page. I still don't see a concern but if you need to drive it home please take it to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard. If you have a specific issue we can always discuss it at one of the others.Cptnono (talk) 08:44, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I was figuring we could just offer Captain NoNo a bribe from our gold, silver and platinum mine. We mint a special coin we call a razzbucknik. Would a million of them be enough? →Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 08:54, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

At which point I should probably emphasize that my (rather unhelpful) comment above was made in jest. I don't see anything here that requires administrative action. As Bugs pointed out earlier, the dispute is a minor one, and any further discussion should take place at Talk:Train wreck, not here or ANI. decltype (talk) 09:18, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

It depends on how little of it you are willing to part with. :) I would settle with fixing the disambiguation page to make the point that "train wreck" is a common term, though. Cptnono (talk) 09:19, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps the best of the citations formerly in the article, such as the Gingrich quote, could be included in the disambiguation, pre-empting any challenge to it. →Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 09:22, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Lets move this over to the relevent talk page Talk:Train wreck (disambiguation) (it is red right now). I just added a direct line + the original wictionary link so I'm sure we can figure out what the dos and do nots are there.Cptnono (talk) 09:27, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

• WOW .. how long have I been asleep? Ummm ... Train Wrecks eh? .... I hope someone doesn't think I have any loco motives here. Give me some time to read through this ... ahhh .... train wreck (as it were), and I'll get back to everyone in a bit. — Ched :  ?  11:52, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

OK, this might take a bit of time here, as I see that there are multiple threads spread across various editors talk page's, as well as a couple article talk pages. Given some time constraints (mine), I'll just give my initial thoughts.

1. I'll abstain from any administrative actions give that there is a concern over WP:COI. While I have to doubt some of the veracity of that due to the fact that Bugs and I may agree on many things, it's also a prove-able fact that we also disagree on many items as well. We (Bugs and I) avoid conflict usually by one or both of us avoiding the particular areas we don't agree on. However, since the concern does exist, I'll not be taking any adminy actions on this. I'd ask decltype to monitor the situation as needed, and note that he is also an admin, and one that I often look to for guidance; and I fully respect his ability to remain impartial, his exceptional WP:CLUE, and experience in WP matters.
2. My initial thoughts on reading through some of this is WP:LAME, but I know that folks feel passionately about their edits here, so I'll move beyond that.
3. Upon viewing edits like this, and this, I'm wondering why. Especially after seeing this restored by the same editor just a short time earlier. To be honest, my first thought is: Wikipedia:Vandalism#Types_of_vandalism item number 1. Now, I'm not accusing, and I note that others have not either - but a couple thoughts on this.
   1. See WP:BRD. That essay doesn't say that you can revert others, point them to the talk page, and only your own view holds any weight. I notice on the article talk page that there seems to be enough favorable input to keeping the information - that it doesn't justify the blanking of sourced material. If that material was forked to a separate article, then I could see it.
   2. As decltype (and others) have mentioned, it's not unusual for an article to contain the explanations of multiple understandings of items. In fact, given the sparseness of the Train wreck article at the moment, I'd think we would want to include other mentions of various conotations.
4. As far as the pot/herb/dope thing: I don't know. I walked away from that almost 30 years ago when I became a single parent. It's not that I pass judgment on it, or even frown on it; it's just a knowledge-base I haven't been familiar with since my mid-20's.
5. The bottom line is that this is a content dispute, and as poor as they sometimes are, we do have things in place to address these things. Dispute resolution doesn't always resolve things, but I get the impression that it may here. There seem to be intelligent parties involved, and I don't see any reason to doubt WP:AGF. It appears we're past the WP:3O step, so perhaps a posting of the WP:RFC sort is now called for. I get the impression that there may be a 2:1 or 3:1 consensus at the moment, but perhaps a few more folks weighing in could persuade any parties from Wikipedia:Tendentious editing.

I hope that this can be resolved without the need to go to the AN boards. Everyone seems to be in good spirits here, so hopefully we can find a good resolution without that. I have a couple clients I need to take care of (sorry, that pesky thing called real life and a need to pay bills always seems to get in the way), but I'll get back to this later today. Best to all. — Ched :  ?  13:13, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your input and a fair assesment of what is going on. In regards to my edits pointed out, I removed it all previousely then reconsidered and thought might it be best to give some heads up and double check. I did so at the help desk and on the talk page along with verifying the appropriate guidelines. Then I made the change.

All discussion page stuff aside and only looking at content, the subject is train crashes. I was shocked my self. I assumed the "what links here" would indicate that the metaphor was the primary topic but it wasn't even close. Therefore, train wreck = train crash (primary) while a hat note shows the reader how to navigate to the band, the song, a note on pot, and a mention of the metaphor. Definitions don't typically recieve play here here but Wiktionary is linked. However, making a mention of the definition seems fine by me especially when considering that the wictionary line (#2 word) was worded differently than I would have done it. All that aside, the encyclopedia is that much more of an ecyclopedia now. The album wasn't even mentioned before but because of this change another editor added it to the disambiguation page which makes navigation better for the reader and more appropriate for the goals of this project. Cptnono (talk) 13:55, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

But you don't need to play mediator. I'll copy and paste this in the article's talk page. Thanks again for the fair assesment and I hope it wasn't too weird to wake up to.Cptnono (talk) 13:56, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Glad to hear that you're working things out. I haven't checked back at the article, and may not have time to until sometime late tomorrow, but if you've copied my post to there - then that should suffice. Nice to meet you by the way Cptnono, hope things go better for you in the future. Glad you got a dab page up, as well as the album and such. It's good to have all the info available to our readers, so I'm glad to hear that everyone is getting to be on the same page. Usually removing sourced information from articles just doesn't work out too well (unless it's a BLP vio), so I'm glad to see you getting up to speed on it all. Cheers and best — Ched :  ?  21:51, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Bridges

This is separate from the above but one editor's comment reminded me of it. It's like blasphemy to say anything negative about Ted Kennedy now, but I'm reminded of a faux quote from sometime in the 1970s, when a reporter supposedly asked him if he was planning to run for President, and he supposedly answered, "I'll drive off that bridge when I come to it." →Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 09:05, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Badda bing! (oh dear, will typing that get me banned?) ;-) ObserverNY (talk) 14:24, 24 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Yes, you are hereby banned, by all the authority vested in me. Which is to say, none. →Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 16:04, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

LOL .. I remember that. Poor Teddy. If anything, I felt sorry for him. I had the greatest admiration for JFK and RFK, and still to this day feel that our country lost a lot more than just 2 politicians when they were killed. I can't imagine what Teddy must have gone through emotionally for all those years - while I don't think he held a candle to his brothers, I felt bad for what he had to suffer. Sadly we just don't seem to have the devotion to country (instead of self) that we did back then - at least as far as our current crop of political puppets goes. I still have to wonder what could have been achieved if JFK could have been given a full 8 years in office. Who knows, maybe there's an alternate reality somewhere that got to experience that - but that's just the sci-fi fan in me speaking there. ;) — Ched :  ?  22:01, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

The civil rights legislation and the space program were pushed through by LBJ in the memory of "our late beloved President (pardon me while I shed a few crocodile tears)" and it's possible that stuff wouldn't have happened if JFK had lived. Hard telling. Unfortunately, JFK also stepped it up hugely in Vietnam (as JFK had only just started to do) and that ultimately sank him. →Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 16:02, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

verifiability vs. truth

You are wise, Ched. Therefore, I ask you, when you have time, to explain to me in a way I can digest it the statement by another editor that "Wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth". I won't be checking back till tomorrow at least, I was invited to be an audience participant on the Glenn Beck show which tapes today (airs on Friday) so until then, regards, ObserverNY (talk) 14:29, 24 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Well, there's probably plenty of folks here that would debate the wise part - but to be honest, most of 'em are just kids. ;). Anyway, the WP:V thing huh? Boy that's a tough one to get used to here huh? I (and many others), have searched for better wording in that policy - but it always seems to come back to the:

• The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true.

To be honest, I'd be content if we could just get rid of the red-line bolding there that taunts new editors. The bottom line is this though. We're trying to be an encyclopedic project (at least some folks claim that), and our task is to "document" rather than to "report". If 10 people watch person:A punch person:B in the face, and it is a very "TRUE" thing - that doesn't matter to Wikipedia. What does matter, ... is it documented by reliable sources that can verify that this happened. (I'm leaving out the WP:Notability issues just for the sake of simplification for the moment).

If you saw this happen, and then you write about it - how is the rest of the world to know that this happened? That would be considered original research. People make up things on the Internet all the time, so we have to have a way "verify" that it happened. NOW, if a resource that is considered reliable reports this - then we have something "verifiable". If say Fox News, the NY Times, CNN, BBC, USAToday, or even MSNBC (gag) writes up something on this - we know that the information has been subjected to an editorial process which checks to make sure the statements are accurate (supposedly) prior to actually be published. It's a form of "checks and balances". It's not that what we're doing here is writing something that isUNtrue, but rather writing something that is true AND verifiable. What it boils down to is that we can not say: Politician:X wasted tax-payer dollars on a personal vacation. We can say that "The Washington Post reported that Politician:X wasted spent tax-payer dollars on a personal vacation." (and provide a link to it).

Now we get into what is considered a reliable source. If you stick to mainstream media, you're usually OK. Never use blogs (anyone can have one of those), steer clear of op-ed pieces (they're opinion pieces), and self-published web-sites aren't going to stand up under a spotlight. There has to be some sort of editorial process that makes a source a good one. I can expand on this part in the future if you'd like.

Anyway, enjoy the Beck program, I'd love to see him in person myself. Hope things are going well (did the picture survive?). To be honest, I'd think it might not have - the fair use stuff is pretty strict. I only upload pics I took myself, so I'm probably not as up on that as I should be. Always good to hear from you, take care. — Ched :  ?  22:43, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi Ched - Thanks for the feedback. Beck was awesome, I got to say about 20 secs. worth in the 2nd half of the show which airs tonight. He gave everyone in the audience a copy of his Arguing with Idiots book, which he autographed for me and a 9/12 Moms T-shirt. I even got to give him a peck on the cheek, he smells good too! Of course, that constitutes WP:OR LOL! ;-)

I had uploaded a pic I took at the 9/12 D.C. rally which of course, Agnostic Preacher's Kid deleted without responding to my question in Talk. He claimed in his undo edit "it looked too cluttered". Maybe I'll try dealing with him after I'm done reading Glenn's book, but it isn't worth the battle right now. Everything is a battle in here. It's exhausting. ObserverNY (talk) 15:39, 25 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Interesting. I think it's appropriate to include this link. APK say that you love me 18:26, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

APK - Seems to me you were the one who originally tried to cause trouble between myself and John History re: our talk pages, why, I have no idea. I responded civilly to you on my talk page and you have had a vendetta against my edits since then. You appear to either deliberately misinterpret my comments or go out of your way distort them. I'll not engage in an edit war with you, simply not worth my time or energy. ObserverNY (talk) 18:49, 25 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

This discussion sounds vaguely familiar somehow. The "verifiability not truth" argument is unfortunately sometimes used to push points of view, because that unfortunate wording suggests that somehow the truth does not matter. It does matter. To "verify" means "to make true". While a fact needs verification, that's not necessarily enough. If there's only one source that says anything about Obama's skin color, and the source says he's green, that "fact" cannot be used, no matter how "reliable" the source is - because a "fact" that's known to be false cannot be presented as being factual. That would undermine wikipedia's purpose, which is to provide factual information to the public. →Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 18:56, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

A broader way to look at it is that a fact requires strict verifiability for inclusion, but does not require such strict verifiability for exclusion. If a fact appears shaky, the best course is to remove it. Better to be gone than to be questionable. →Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 19:00, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

• Ummm ... OK, I'll respond in a couple days to this .. but right now - I'm gonna work on ... zOMG ... articles. ENCYCLOPEDIA CONTENT. Say it with me folks ... CONTENT! — Ched :  ?  23:38, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
  • "No drama, O Mama". →Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 01:18, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

I will respond, in all due time, and much I see is fact

but for right now, I'll try to write, and do it with some tact.

To fuss and fight, serves no one well,

I'll see you all - this side of hell.

— Ched :  ?  02:01, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Roses are red

Violets are purple

Sugar's sweet

And so's maple syr'p'l

"Dang Me" →Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 02:26, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Li'l Abner, etc.

For the culturally deprived and depraved, the "razzbucknik" was the official currency of the fictional country called Lower Slobbovia. It was said that one razzbucknik was worth nothing, and a million razzbuckniks were worth a lot less, due to the trouble of having to carry them around. So if someone asks you what your admin salary is, you could safely say that it's a million razzbuckniks. →Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 14:53, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Well said

"WP editors have a policy they should follow. WP:OWN. This same policy should also apply to administrative actions. We don't "own" blocks and protections. If someone questions, or "edits" an admin. action - then it's possible that the edit or change was done to improve the project. Talk. Discuss. Become familiar with the folks we're working with. Blocks should be a last resort, and only to prevent some sort of distruction that's going on."

Could hardly have said it better myself Ched. Admins aren't some kind of police force, and it's about time they began to recognise that. --Malleus Fatuorum 02:58, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, they're kind of like a police force, except their weapons are keyboard-and-mouse. →Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 03:04, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

No, their weapons allow them to shut you the fuck up. At least on wikipedia anyway. The real police aren't allowed to do that. --Malleus Fatuorum 03:14, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Mal. While I think this is a very noble project, I suspect that some folks take things just a touch too seriously sometimes. Somehow I just figure that when (or if), I ever get to the Pearly gates (or whatever the step beyond this life is) - the things I did on Wikipedia won't be on the short list of what gets reviewed. ;-) — Ched :  ?  15:47, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Haven't I...?

Haven't I seen you around the monarchy articles, in the past? Your moniker looks familiar. GoodDay (talk) 15:16, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Probably not unless it was a vandalism revert. I'm mostly active in NASCAR, do what I can on some BLP stuff, some movies or TV here and there. You may be thinking of User:Pedro, I copied the style of my sig. from him. Either way, it's nice to meet you ;) — Ched :  ?  15:39, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

That's who it was Pedro. It's nice to mee you too. GoodDay (talk) 15:46, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

"Your Moniker looks familiar..." Isn't that what Ted said to Bill in the 1990s? :) →Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 15:41, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Kennedy & Clinton? GoodDay (talk) 15:46, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

LMAO .. that took a second to sink in ... Monkier Lewinsky eh? ... that'll give me giggles for a while. ;) — Ched :  ?  15:50, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

She liked playing 'swallow the leader'. GoodDay (talk) 15:55, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Ohhhh ... good one ... Hey GoodDay ... I think I remember the movie ;-) 15:58, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

So those are the characters, Bugs was speaking of. I've a twisted mind. GoodDay (talk) 16:03, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. →Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 16:09, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

He he he. GoodDay (talk) 16:24, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Re: Hey

Yeah, I'm in one of my low-key un-communicative modes. Takes someone prodding to wake me up. Otherwise, I'm just puttering around doing minor inconsequential stuff. — Huntster (t @ c) 03:37, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

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