Apsrubov
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December 2021
edit
Welcome to Wikipedia. We appreciate your contributions, but in one of your recent edits to Nuclear marine propulsion, it appears that you have added original research, which is against Wikipedia's policies. Original research refers to material—such as facts, allegations, ideas, and personal experiences—for which no reliable, published sources exist; it also encompasses combining published sources in a way to imply something that none of them explicitly say. Please be prepared to cite a reliable source for all of your contributions. You can have a look at the tutorial on citing sources. Thank you. - wolf 20:01, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Thewolfchild: Sources are already provided in the main article Sibir_(2017_icebreaker) "Completed: 24 December 2021 (commissioning ceremony)" Apsrubov (talk) 20:42, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
- Few things; 1. the article states that the ship is not expected to be active/in service until January 2022 (but you put "2021-present"), 2; you made no mention of the "main" or parent article in your edit summary, which is required for attribution if you're relying on it for your edit and 3. you also removed the source attached to Arktika for some reason (?).
- Imo, it would be better to wait a couple weeks until the ship is actually in service and then state as such on any related pages. It would be preferable to copy the source from the parent article over, but at the very least note that the change is per the parent article (with a link to said article) in your edit summary. And if you're going to remove content, (ie: sources), then you should explain why in your summary as well. Thanks - wolf 20:56, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Thewolfchild: Right now Nuclear_marine_propulsion states "Sibir (under construction, planned to be in service in 2021)" which is incorrect. It is not under construction and has been commissioned per Sibir_(2017_icebreaker). Source link for Arktika in Nuclear marine propulsion is also linking commissioning ceremony, which Sibir already had. I originally removed link for Arktika because all relevant information is sourced in its main article, but ok I won't remove such links anymore. Regarding part of Sibir article where it says "In service January 2022 (planned)[6]". The linked article actually says that it will be deployed to Kara Sea in early 2022 and that it will be commissioned this year(2021). So at least in my opinion it should be (2021-present). Apsrubov (talk) 21:24, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
- Do you have a source that confirms Sibir has been commissioned and is active/in service? (And dates for such?). Both articles should match (along with any others that list the ship), but there seems to be conflicting info, so any changes now should definitely have sourcing attached. - wolf 21:33, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Thewolfchild: This is in Sibirs sources: https://en.portnews.ru/news/323194/ "25 December 2021 ... Upon signing of the acceptance/delivery certificate, the Sibir joined the fleet of nuclear-powered icebreakers of the Russian Federation. “With the first serial nuclear-powered icebreaker, the Sibir, put into operation, Rosatomflot will strengthen its positions in the Arctic Region.". Article sourced for "In service January 2022" (https://portnews.ru/news/322122/) says that it will be deployed to Kara sea in January 2022 which means that it will be on an active duty there at that time. Generally It is commissioned and in service. Apsrubov (talk) 21:51, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
- Well, not quite. You need to be wary of WP:SYNTH. Acceptance/delivery is not the same as being put into active service, rather it just means that the service or agency has taken possession of the ship from the builder. Often there is more to be done after delivery and before going into service. The quote said it "will" strengthen, not that it "has" strengthen(ed), meaning it could just a likely be referring to the future as the present. Can you find a source that lists a specific date that the ship was commissioned and/or put into active service? That's what needed here. - wolf 22:04, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Thewolfchild: Ok, lets assume that such source doesn't exist as I was only been able to find sources where it is phrased in ambiguous future tense. But then source link for Arktika on Nuclear marine propulsion page(which I previously removed) also doesn't contain anything about Arktika being operational. It states that it has been commissioned. So that link is irrelevant if we say that commissioning has nothing to do with being in service. And Sibir's current status is still incorrect - it is not under construction. Apsrubov (talk) 07:38, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
- Well, not quite. You need to be wary of WP:SYNTH. Acceptance/delivery is not the same as being put into active service, rather it just means that the service or agency has taken possession of the ship from the builder. Often there is more to be done after delivery and before going into service. The quote said it "will" strengthen, not that it "has" strengthen(ed), meaning it could just a likely be referring to the future as the present. Can you find a source that lists a specific date that the ship was commissioned and/or put into active service? That's what needed here. - wolf 22:04, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Thewolfchild: This is in Sibirs sources: https://en.portnews.ru/news/323194/ "25 December 2021 ... Upon signing of the acceptance/delivery certificate, the Sibir joined the fleet of nuclear-powered icebreakers of the Russian Federation. “With the first serial nuclear-powered icebreaker, the Sibir, put into operation, Rosatomflot will strengthen its positions in the Arctic Region.". Article sourced for "In service January 2022" (https://portnews.ru/news/322122/) says that it will be deployed to Kara sea in January 2022 which means that it will be on an active duty there at that time. Generally It is commissioned and in service. Apsrubov (talk) 21:51, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
- Do you have a source that confirms Sibir has been commissioned and is active/in service? (And dates for such?). Both articles should match (along with any others that list the ship), but there seems to be conflicting info, so any changes now should definitely have sourcing attached. - wolf 21:33, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Thewolfchild: Right now Nuclear_marine_propulsion states "Sibir (under construction, planned to be in service in 2021)" which is incorrect. It is not under construction and has been commissioned per Sibir_(2017_icebreaker). Source link for Arktika in Nuclear marine propulsion is also linking commissioning ceremony, which Sibir already had. I originally removed link for Arktika because all relevant information is sourced in its main article, but ok I won't remove such links anymore. Regarding part of Sibir article where it says "In service January 2022 (planned)[6]". The linked article actually says that it will be deployed to Kara Sea in early 2022 and that it will be commissioned this year(2021). So at least in my opinion it should be (2021-present). Apsrubov (talk) 21:24, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
1. If you can't find a source to support existing content, then it should be removed, or at the very least tagged. 2. "Commissioned" usually means "operational". If a source states a ship has been "commissioned", then usually that ship can be listed as "active", "in service" and/or "operational". (So no... that link is not "irrelevant"). 3. I don't belive it has been said anywhere that "commissioning has nothing to do with being in service." 4. There can be several stages between "under construction" and "in service", such as "launched". "awaiting delivery", "pre-delivery inspections", "sea trials", "fitting out", etc., etc. And for nuclear-powered vessels, possibly more testing stages for the reactor, such as pressure tests, cooling system checks, etc., etc.
I'm not saying that all these stages are for certain, just pointing some possibilities, and the fact that taking delivery of nuclear powered ship and putting her into active service is not a quick or simple as buying a new car, picking it up at the dealer and driving down the highway. That said, I should also add the caveat that I'm more familiar with USN ship service stages than Russias ones. All we can do is list the latest known stage that is confirmed in a reliable source. Then regularly watch for updates. When a source states that a ship has progressed to another stage, then we can note that... but not before. It doesn't matter if we have personal knowledge of different facts, we have to go by the sources (unfortunately that sometimes leads to a lag in article updates, but that is the system we have).
So, keep watching sources for changes in status, and go from there. If you find something, let me know. You can post here, there is no need to ping me, this page is on my watchlist. Good luck! (and sorry about the length) - wolf 08:18, 1 January 2022 (UTC)