Template talk:Infobox television season/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

Should have a link to the TV program as a whole

There doesn't seem to be any place to put the name of the main article for the television program of which the season is a part. Shouldn't there be? —SamB (talk) 23:05, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, as I requested above as well. --Gonnym (talk) 07:10, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Not everything has to be in the infobox. The series name is usually just linked in the opening sentence of the lead. --AussieLegend (✉) 08:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

While not everything needs to be in the infobox, the show article is one of the main pieces of the information. --Gonnym (talk) 08:55, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Actually when it comes to the season article itself, it's not important at all. We don't actually discuss the main series in the article. A link to the main article just provides additional information. --AussieLegend (✉) 14:03, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

You are misleading with the points you are making. We don't discuss the next or previous seasons yet we have a link to them, we don't discuss the list of episodes to the entire show, yet we have a link to that. Your point doesn't hold up when other fields are present that are clearly opposite to the point you are making. --Gonnym (talk) 13:09, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, linking to related things that are not the topic of the current page is precisely what links are for, and if we're going to have those other navigation links in the infobox, it would certainly make sense to have a link to the top-level article there as well. —SamB (talk) 22:58, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

@Gonnym: The season articles are subpages of the episode list. Together the season articles and the episode list article are the episode list, which is why we include navigation links to them.

@SamB: We include a link to the top level article in the lead, usually in the first sentence. How many links do we need? Essentially, including a link in the infobox as well is a violation of WP:REPEATLINK. --AussieLegend (✉) 05:20, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

@AussieLegend: But, um, infoboxes are supposed to repeat stuff from the prose, aren't they? As for the season pages being subpages of the episode list, I hadn't realized that; this makes your position seem much more reasonable. Perhaps it would be clearer with "↑ Up" next to the link to the main list? (What's supposed to be done when there is no separate episode list article?) —SamB (talk) 15:58, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

The lead summarises the body of the article. The infobox doesn't summarise the lead. Like the lead, the infobox summarises the body of the article. Season articles shouldn't really exist without an episode list article. It does happen, but it shouldn't. --AussieLegend (✉) 16:25, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Hmm, I couldn't find a section about the relationships between the various different pages (e.g. "these pages are subarticles of that one, so it should exist when they do") on WP:MOSTV, and this template doesn't seem to emit so much as a tracking category to hint that such usage is bad form. —SamB (talk) 19:12, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

In relation to this, here's how we edit Wikipedia as a whole:

1. Create article
2. Article gets too big so we split into sub-articles
3. Goto 2

For TV specifically, we create a TV series article. At any point that it gets too large we consider splitting the article into sub-articles. The first time this happens is usually when the series reaches a second season, although sometimes it's not. We move the content from the main article to an episode list article, which is normally called "List of <foo> episodes". At some point "List of <foo> episodes" gets too large so we create a sublist, as explained at Template:Episode list#Sublists. These are the season articles, which are sub-articles of the episode list article. At "List of <foo> episodes" we use {{Episode list}} to list episodes while in the sublists we use {{Episode list/sublist}}. We (experienced editors) don't usually create the sub-articles first.

"this template doesn't seem to emit so much as a tracking category to hint that such usage is bad form" - I'm really not sure what you're getting at here. --AussieLegend (✉) 05:55, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Oh, one more thing: while it might be unnecessary, it seems like it wouldn't be all that difficult technically to make the italicized portion of the title link to the article on the television program as a whole, given the name of that article as a parameter; this wouldn't use any more space than what we have now, but would still make navigation that little bit more convenient. —SamB (talk) 16:28, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

AussieLegend, you are again misleading in so many ways. WP:REPEATLINK has nothing to do with relations beteen lead/article and infobox. ALL the links in the infobox appear in the article (and usually in the lead). The article would be linked only once in the infobox, making WP:REPEATLINK again, irrelevant to this point. And while you say that the season article is a subpage of the episode list, I disagree and see it as a subpage of the main article list with the episode list on the same level (which is still an irrelevant point as no where does it say that that is how infobox linking works). SamB, adding a link is very simple.--Gonnym (talk) 21:31, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

No, it's not misleading at all. We don't duplicate links in close proximity to each other. Within an infobox we don't need to link to the article because it's already linked in the text immediately to the left of the infobox, usually in the first sentence. As for sub-articles, please see my response above regarding how we split episode list articles. If you need clarification, please ask at WT:TV where you'll get more opinions.

"adding a link is very simple" - SamB wrote it wouldn't be all that difficult technically to make the italicized portion of the title link to the article on the television program as a whole, given the name of that article as a parameter. Why don't you do that in the sandbox? --AussieLegend (✉) 05:55, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

I may be a bit late on the whole topic but I dropped in to ask what the heck that arrow is supposed to mean? (e.g. ↑ List of Breaking Bad episodes) on the season pages. I read this discussion a few times and still don't get it and I think most readers won't understand what it's supposed to mean, so I propose we remove it. --Rayukk (talk) 11:16, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

I was prepared to give it a go, but since it's causing more confusing than not having it did, I've removed it. --AussieLegend (✉) 12:07, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

AussieLegend, you can continue making up facts, but it still would not make it true. There is no link to the main article, so it does not count as a duplicate link. The first line of the lead usually has the show creator in it as well, so should that be removed as its duplicating a link? I saw your sub-article explanation but I disagree with your opinion of how it works. The season articles has much more information than just episode list summaries. It has production, reception, casting and other information which do not show up in any list of episode articles. Regarding your sandbox option, if I thought you were really asking for sandbox options I'd be more than happy to offer a few options, but I somehow get the feeling you were being disingenuous (apologizing if I misunderstood your intentions). --Gonnym (talk) 09:48, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

If they're facts, they're not made up. There is always a link to the main series article in the lead. The series creator is rarely mentioned in the first line of the lead of a season article. While you may disagree with what I wrote, that's how it works, and I supported that with links. The fact that season articles may contain more season specific content does not stop the articles being sublists. Apology accepted. What I wrote about the sandbox was addressed to SamB, not you. --AussieLegend (✉) 12:01, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I guess it should have said made up "facts" so you'd understand the sentence. I disagree with you because that's not how it works and I've gave you numerous examples that contradict what you said (the relations of linking in infobox vs content in lead). --Gonnym (talk) 12:56, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

[Reply to OP] Yes; it's a fundamental aspect of the subject of the infobox. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:50, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Interesting "feature"

just fixed a bug in the automatic italics for the season_name, see the last example in the testcases. Frietjes (talk) 15:34, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Color and refs in episode list headers

So I've noticed that there's a common practice of putting refs in table headers on episode lists. This does restrict the range of colors we can use in both the table and the infobox (see User:EvergreenFir/sandbox1). Honestly I'd rather see the refs moved, but wasn't sure what the best way to do that would be. The refs seem to be in the header to avoid putting them on every entry in the table. I think moving them to prose above the table is best. Compare User:EvergreenFir/sandbox4#Refs_in_table_headers to User:EvergreenFir/sandbox4#Refs_in_prose. Any other ideas?

On this topic, can we make put something in the documentation (or even the MOS:TV) for this template and others like it that if colors are used, editors should avoid putting refs in the table headers? EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 21:04, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

There was and still may be a bug in the visual editor where references on production code entries corrupted the table. Also a reference that applies to every entry in the table should go in the header, prose after the table is less likely to be noticed for large tables. There are colors that meet WP:COLOR that work for the footnote blue as well as for the white or black text colors and they should be chosen if there are references in the headers. Geraldo Perez (talk) 21:14, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Actually, the most appropriate place from my reading of the HTML 5 spec is that citations should generally go inside the <tfoot> element. While we don't support use of that element, it is pretty trivial to add a bottom row even so. I also think having the information held in the preceding sentences should suffice to verify the table. --Izno (talk) 21:22, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

@Geraldo Perez: Again, my concern is the range of colors available are very very limited. We can use them, but if there's an easy work around I think that would be better aesthetically.

@Izno: I'm not very familiar with HTML standards anymore... is that perhaps something we could get implemented here? And I agree a line at the bottom of the table would work as well (that's how we do it in academic tables usually). I'd love to hear more opinions on this though. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 02:41, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

This ancient bug is the request to properly implement tfoot. You could still do it even so with probably just a <td class=unsortable> spanning the entire row, but I'm not entirely certain whether that will (not) mux with sortable tables. Someone might want to sandbox. --Izno (talk) 04:16, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

That said, I just recalled our use case, which is simply an infobox. In that case, just add a field called {{{references}}} or something. Or even better, ensure that everything in the template is elsewhere in the text and sourced. Then there's no question about the text in the infobox. --Izno (talk) 04:18, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Granularity

To improve data granularity, we should hold the show name and the season number separately. So, in the example in the documentation:

| season_name = Show (season 2)

would become, say:

| show_name  = Show
| season_number = 2

which would leave the current display unchanged. For edge cases like The Apprentice (U.S. season 5), we'd either keep the current arrangement, or have a |Season_qualifier=; and cases like Road Rules: South Pacific would just use |show_name=. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:44, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Holding |season_number= separately will also allow 'previous' and 'next links' to be generated automatically (with a manual override). Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:04, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Note: this. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:01, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

This sounds like a good idea, however not quite sure what you meant with |Season_qualifier=. Also, Road Rules: South Pacific's article states its the 12th season, so it can still use the season_number field for automatic next/prev, but it might need a tweek to not list it as Road Rules: South Pacific (season 12). --Gonnym (talk) 08:52, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

A qualifier would be inserted between the opening bracket and "season". Alakzi (talk) 09:50, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Would also stop people capitalizing the word season (a pet peeve of mine). EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 10:13, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 09:43, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

In the example given, The Apprentice (U.S. season 5):

| show_name  = The Apprentice
| season_number = 5
| season_qualifier = U.S.

Your RRSP example is a good catch. Adding |season_number_display=no would fix that. (Though we might want instead for it to be displayed as an ordinary line in the infobox. And we'd need to factor in that the "next" value is a different name, not just a numerical increment.) Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 09:47, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

I think this would all be good to add, and to address Gonnym's comment above, if you add a fourth new paramater |season_text= or |season_name= (whatever you'd chose), that could be use to add a different name to display in the infobox. So taking Archer (season 5) as an example:

| show_name = Archer | season_number = 5 | season_name = Archer: Vice

would in theory produce the text seen at the article currently. And then for the next and previous, if those were different names you could have the current |next_season= and |prev_season= and add |next_name= and |prev_name= to change the default styling. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 00:36, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm in favor of all suggested new fields. Also Andy's idea of writing out the season number in the infobox would be a good addition, especially for seasons with a name where the reader won't be able to look at a glance and see what season number it was. --Gonnym (talk) 15:38, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

@Pigsonthewing and Alakzi: Could either of you maybe make a mock up of the code for this in the sandbox so we can see what it would look like? I think everyone who commented was in favor of Andy's initial changes, and I received some support for what I suggested just above. Thanks. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 01:25, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

...okay. Maybe @AlexTheWhovian: can try? My coding skills are not where I'd like them to be, or else I would try this. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 04:49, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

@Favre1fan93: Yeah, I'll definitely take a look into it. Alex|The|Whovian 09:29, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. If we can get this squared away, then we can work on making a big AWB clean up script to handle this, removing depreciated fields, and anything as a result of our color discussion. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:19, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

New Optional Categories: Winner & Runner Up

I came across this Infobox on a page for Dancing with the Stars and it occurred to me that this infobox would work a lot better for So You Think You Can Dance. As it stands, the pages for all the Seasons of SYTYCD use the Template: Infobox reality music competition, but I think that this infobox would work a lot better. I noticed that it's been modified for DWTS to include "celebrity winner" and "professional winner". I would like to humbly suggest that it be modified to include "winner" and "runner up" as optional categories, in the same way that the celebrity and professional winners are used.
I'm sure there are plenty of other pages for Competitive TV Shows that could benefit from this template if this change was made, rather than it only catering to one television franchise.

Razorgirl (talk) 02:13, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

I've already merged a number of other templates into this one, but most of the parameters in {{Infobox reality music competition}} don't exist in this template. --AussieLegend (✉) 11:58, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

As we talked about before somewhere else, {{Infobox reality talent competition}} would work much better as being a module of this template. Having access to all the relevant season fields, while also providing access to reality talent competition fields. --Gonnym (talk) 13:14, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

"episode_list" variable

I'm not entirely familiar with regular expressions when it comes to Lua scripting, but if there's someone who is familiar with it, perhaps it'd be an idea to implement the "episode_list" variable to automatically change "List of SHOWNAME episodes" to "[[List of SHOWNAME episodes|List of ''SHOWNAME'' episodes]]"? That is, much like how "season_name" changes "SHOWNAME (season X)" to "''SHOWNAME'' (season X)". Alex|The|Whovian 01:42, 4 December 2015 (UTC)