Template talk:History of the Catholic Church

Copied from Talk:History of the Roman Catholic Church

I finished today the Template: History of the Catholic Church. Friend Carlaude attempted to rename to Roman Catholic, and then redirected the new template to his Template:Christian History

• 15:27, 10 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Template:History of the Catholic Church‎ (Template:Christian History)

No need to comment on this. The history of the Catholic Church is of course much more than the history of Roman Church. We will deal with that later. I would be interested in your comments and improvments on the two hour old template. Thank You. --Ambrosius007 (talk) 16:33, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

This was only because of Ambrosius007 constant efforts to add the {{Template:History of the Catholic Church‎}} name everywhere. I have asked him to do so but still no answer. --Carlaude (talk) 18:11, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Carlaude, others here have repeatedly asked not to vandalize. I second this request, vandalism is childish in my view--Ambrosius007 (talk) 16:42, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

The title should match that of the main article. As long as the article is officially titled Roman Catholic Church, then the template should be called Template:History of the Roman Catholic Church. On a quick glance, I noticed that some of the titles don't match the articles and use a form that may not be obvious to nonCatholics. For example, why is Second Vatican Council called Second Ecumenical Council of the Vatican? Karanacs (talk) 17:51, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

The longer names are the "offical" names and also serve to confuse-- as you point out. The only reason seems to be a need to push an RC POV. I have already fixed them. --Carlaude (talk) 18:11, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I took a quick look, and these are my first impressions. I suspect we will need to discuss each set of links separately, either here or on the template talk page. Under General, I'd add Role of the Roman Catholic Church in civilization.

I think there is too much information in much of the rest of it. It seems unnecessary, to me, to include pieces of the Church just because they were founded in that period (such as Swiss Guards). In my opinion, this should be restricted to events or people that had a significant impact on the church at the time.

Among the links I think are most likely to warrant being left off are Battle of Milvian Bridge, Cluny, Cîteaux Abbey, Avignon (why not Avignon Papacy?), Fall of Constantinople, Swiss Guards, Raphael, Michaelangelo, Thomas More, Our Lady of Guadalupe, Battle of Lepanto, Oratory of Saint Philip Neri, Edith Stein, Maximilian Kolbe, Our Lady of Fatima. Where should the discussion take place? Would it be all right with everyone to put up one time period of links at a time to discuss? Karanacs (talk) 18:05, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Obviously, a 2000 year history leaves room for judgement. Official titles are the norm here, but if shorter ones do exist such as Vatican II, much better. Yes, some entries should be deleted or replace, while others are still missing, such as Thomas Aquinas.--Ambrosius007 (talk) 07:23, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Generally, I agree with Karen; things that were important for the Church, like the Fall of Constantinople, but where the article hardly mentions the RCC, should not be there. Second Ecumenical Council of the Vatican is somewhat POV anyway, as it was only "Catholic eucumenical". Art in Roman Catholicism should be there, and more general historical articles - Hiberno-Scottish mission - and fewer biographies. Johnbod (talk) 13:28, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to move this discussion over to Template talk:History of the Catholic Church. Karanacs (talk) 13:44, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Requested move 29 May 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved. The target page is gonna need to be deleted soon, the CSD tag is messing up lots of articles. (closed by a page mover) (non-admin closure). Anarchyte (work | talk) 11:32, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

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Template:History of the Roman Catholic Church → Template:History of the Catholic Church – According to the heading of the template, the convention of the title of the article it refers to, as well as its contents. Also in accordance with similar templates. Chicbyaccident (talk) 14:07, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

• Support. Consistent with Catholic Church. The Church doesn't really have an official name, but "Catholic Church" is both more common and more official than "Roman Catholic Church." It's the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops and Catholic University of America -- no "Roman" here. Gulangyu (talk) 22:29, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
• Support as per above, WP:Consistency. Chicbyaccident (talk) 21:16, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

General section

Current links:

• History of the Roman Catholic Church
• History of the Papacy
• Timeline of the Roman Catholic Church
• History of Christianity

Proposed changes

I would like to add Role of Roman Catholic Church in civilization. Karanacs (talk) 13:54, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Add the "Art in" too, and Roman Catholic religious order or Christian monasticism. Johnbod (talk) 15:44, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Those would be nice additions, I agree--Ambrosius007 (talk) 16:38, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Church beginnings

Current links:

• Jesus
• Twelve Apostles
• Peter the Apostle
• Paul of Tarsus
• Council of Jerusalem
• St. Stephen
• Emperor Nero
• St. John
• Ignatius of Antioch
• Irenaeus
• Pope Victor I
• Tertullian
• Battle of Milvian Bridge

Shouldn't the row title "Church beginnings" be linked somehow? Chicbyaccident (talk) 12:18, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Proposed changes

• I would like to remove Battle of Milvian Bridge and Emperor Nero as not having enough to do with the topic.
• I would like to add Apostolic Fathers, but remove Ignatius of Antioch.
• I think we should also remove Paul of Tarsus, St. Stephen, St. John, and Tertullian.

Karanacs (talk) 13:54, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

I incline to keeping Ignatius & Tertullian, if the articles are good. Johnbod (talk) 15:45, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

if the articles are good hm, that an interesting point, some are not as good as others, but if they ar important and highlighted here, maye somebody works on them. Why remove Paul of Tarsus, what would christianity be without him? Please read each article to get the flavour. Obviously we should cut and add but the article should not be the bible. I agree on adding Apostolic Fathers.--Ambrosius007 (talk) 16:38, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

However, this template shouldn't really be focusing on "where would Christianity be without" X, but more on things that specifically impact the Roman Catholic Church. Paul of Tarsus would very definitely belong in a template on History of Christianity, but I disagree that he belongs here. Karanacs (talk) 17:23, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Constantine to Gregory the Great

Current links:

• Constantine I
• Edict of Milan
• Arius
• Pope Miltiades
• Lateran Basilica
• First Ecumenical Council of Nicaea
• Pope Sylvester I
• First Ecumenical Council of Constantinople
• Pope Damasus I
• Canon
• Jerome
• Vulgate
• Council of Ephesus
• Council of Chalcedon
• St Benedict
• Pope Symmachus
• Second Ecumenical Council of Constantinople
• Pope Gregory the Great
• Gregorian Chant

Proposed changes

• I would like to remove the following as not having enough to do with the specific topic: Constantine I, Gregorian chant
• I think we should rename the following to match the article names:
  • First Ecumenical Council of Nicaea to First Council of Nicaea
  • First Ecumenical Council of Constantinople to First Council of Constantinople
  • Second Ecumenical Council of Constantinople to Second Council of Constantinople
  • Pope Gregory the Great to Pope Gregory I
• I would like to replace Arius with Arianism.
• Do we really need the following: Lateran Basilica, canon, Jerome, Vulgate
• Do we want to include every Pope? I think not, and would remove Pope Miltiades, Pope Sylvester I, Pope Damasus I, Pope Symmachus

Karanacs (talk) 14:13, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but use Constantine I and Christianity instead. I'd keep Jerome, but I'm not sure we need any Popes in this template at all - they have their own. Gregory perhaps an exception. Johnbod (talk) 15:48, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Agree especially with John, would definitively keep Gregorian Chant because of its unique role in liturgy since. --Ambrosius007 (talk) 16:48, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Early Middle Ages

Current links:

• Third Ecumenical Council of Constantinople
• Saint Boniface
• Iconoclasm
• Donation of Pepin
• Second Council of Nicaea
• Charlemagne
• Pope Leo III
• Fourth Ecumenical Council of Constantinople
• Cluny

Proposed changes

• We should definitely add East-West Schism.
• I would rename the following:
  • Third Ecumenical Council of Constantinople to Third Council of Constantinople
  • Fourth Ecumenical Council of Constantinople to Fourth Council of Constantinople
• I would remove the following: Charlemagne, Cluny, Pope Leo III.

Karanacs (talk) 14:17, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

This bit is a mess. Byzantine Iconoclasm would be the article, but really the Western attitude made very little difference, not did Iconoclasm affect the Western Church much. Hiberno-Scottish mission and Celtic Christianity should be there too, plus perhaps similar "Christianisation" articles. Benedict, or, maybe better Rule of St Benedict? Johnbod (talk) 15:54, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't know enough about this subject, whatever you dicide is fine with me--Ambrosius007 (talk) 16:50, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

High Middle Ages

Current links:

• Pope Urban II
• Investiture controversy
• Crusades
• Citeaux
• First Ecumenical Lateran Council
• Second Ecumenical Lateran Council
• Third Ecumenical Lateran Council
• Pope Innocent III
• Latin Empire of Constantinople
• Saint Francis of Assisi
• Fourth Ecumenical Lateran Council
• Inquisition
• Pope Gregory IX
• First Ecumenical Council of Lyons
• Second Ecumenical Council of Lyons

Proposed changes

• I would rename the following:
  • First Ecumenical Lateran Council to First Council of the Lateran
  • Second Ecumenical Lateran Council to Second Council of the Lateran
  • Third Ecumenical Lateran Council to [[Third Council of the Lateran
  • Fourth Ecumenical Lateran Council to Fourth Council of the Lateran
  • First Ecumenical Council of Lyons to First Council of Lyons
  • Second Ecumenical Council of Lyons to Second Council of Lyons
• I would remove the following: Citeaux, Latin Empire of Constantinople Agree Johnbod (talk)
• The link for Crusades currently goes to First Crusade. This should instead go to Crusades. No- the 1st was where the Church involvement was crucial. Johnbod (talk) 15:28, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
• Should we add Gothic architecture? No. Johnbod (talk) 15:28, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Karanacs (talk) 14:30, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree, missing are theologians Bernard of Clairvaux and Thomas Aquinas in their respective times--Ambrosius007 (talk) 16:53, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Desintegration and reforms

Current links:

• Boniface VIII
• Avignon
• Pope Clement V
• Ecumenical Council of Vienne
• Knights Templar
• Catherine of Siena
• Fall of Constantinople
• Pope Alexander VI
• Pope Julius II
• Swiss Guards
• Raphael
• Michaelangelo

Proposed changes

• I don't like the name of this section, but am not sure what to change it to.
• I think we should remove the following: Fall of Constantinople, Swiss Guards, Raphael, Michaelangelo, Boniface VIII
• Instead of Avignon, we should have Avignon Papacy

- yes to all. If we have the general art article, that avoids promoting the very well-known periods and ignoring those as important, but less well known. Johnbod (talk) 15:59, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

• We should rename the following:
  • Ecumenical Council of Vienne to Council of Vienne
• Perhaps instead of Pope Julius II we could link to Art Patronage of Julius II? That would give good information about the RCC's influence on art in the Renaissance.

Unfortunately the article is crap (as is The Reformation and art). Johnbod (talk) 15:59, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Karanacs (talk) 14:30, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Well Rafael and Michelangelo were key players in Church history at the time as art was much more central than today. They gave much of the present outward appearance their stamp. Avignon papacy is clearly a better choice. --Ambrosius007 (talk) 16:59, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Reformation and Catholic Reforms

Current links:

• Martin Luther
• Thomas More
• Pope Leo X
• Our Lady of Guadalupe
• Saint Ignatius of Loyola
• Francis Xavier
• Dissolution of the Monasteries
• Pope Paul III
• Council of Trent
• Pope Pius V
• Tridentine Mass
• Battle of Lepanto
• Teresa of Avila
• Mysticism
• Robert Bellarmine
• Oratory of Saint Philip Neri

Proposed changes

• I would rename the section to "Reformation and Counter-Reformation"
• We should add links to Protestant Reformation and Counter Reformation
• I would remove the following links: Our Lady of Guadalupe, Battle of Lepanto, Oratory of Saint Philip Neri, Thomas More, Robert Bellarmine, Teresa of Avila
• Perhaps remove Saint Ignatius of Loyola and replace it with Jesuits
• Perhaps remove Martin Luther
• I would add Gregorian calendar -- huge impact on the western world

Karanacs (talk) 14:41, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Agree with all that except the calendar. Johnbod (talk) 16:02, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Agree including the calendar. Lepanto? There seems to be a consesus here to leave teporal battles out, then of course Lepanto should go as well. Jesuits, much better,and the additions proposed are all good ones. --Ambrosius007 (talk) 17:03, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Baroque Period to French Revolution

Current list

• Pope Clement VIII
• Pope Urban VIII
• Galileo
• Pope Innocent XI
• Benedict XIV
• Suppression of the Jesuits
• John Carroll
• French Revolution
• anti-clerical measures
• Pope Pius VI

Proposed changes

• I think we should remove the following: Galileo, John Carroll, French Revolution, Pope Clement VIII, Benedict XIV, Pope Pius VI.
• Perhaps add Shimabara Rebellion
• perhaps add Edict of Nantes and Revocation of the Edict of Nantes

Karanacs (talk) 14:46, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

I would agree with four removals including Clement VIII. Benedict XIV was very important, and Pope Pius VIreigned for 25 very tumultuous years. Shimabara Rebellion and Revocation of the Edict of Nantes would be noice editions, I agree--Ambrosius007 (talk) 17:10, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

19th Century

Current link:

• Pope Pius VII
• Archdiocese of Westminster
• Plenary Council of Baltimore
• Pope Pius IX
• Dogma of the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary
• Our Lady of Lourdes
• First Ecumenical Council of the Vatican
• Leo XIII
• Rerum Novarum

Proposed changes

• I would remove the following: Our Lady of Lourdes, Plenary Council of Baltimore, Pope Pius VII, Archdiocese of Westminster, Leo XIII

I would rename First Ecumenical Council of the Vatican to First Vatican Council. Karanacs (talk) 14:56, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Lourdes and Fatima (20th century) are not important by themselves but for initiating significant religious fervour, millions of pilgrimages, literature, organizations, not to mention papal teachings and visits. You may call it a social movement from bottom up, where none existed before. Therefore they are relevant. Baltimore and Westminster are important in the local context only. Pius VII and Leo XIII together with Pius IX together largely determined the papacy in the 19th century (for about 75 years)--Ambrosius007 (talk) 17:20, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

20th Century

Current links:

• Saint Pope Pius X
• Our Lady of Fatima
• Persecutions
• Pius XII
• Dogma of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary
• Edith Stein
• Maximilian Kolbe
• Second Ecumenical Council of the Vatican
• Paul VI
• Mother Teresa
• John Paul II

Proposed changes

• I recommend renaming Second Ecumenical Council of the Vatican to Second Vatican Council
• I would remove the following: Our Lady of Fátima, Pope Pius XII, Edith Stein, Maximilian Kolbe, Paul VI, Mother Theresa
• I would add Lateran Treaty
• Possibly add Traditionalist Catholics
• Should we add a link to the article on the sex abuse cases? That is a big deal in recent Catholic history, and I am uncertain whether or not to add it.

Karanacs (talk) 14:56, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

The sex abuse case is largely a local issue, which did not affect the Catholic Church in most parts of the world, it is still ongoing in the courts, definitely not histoy at this point. Regarding the removal of the mentioned categories, I do not fully see the rationale. For example, the pontificate of Paul VI was by far the most far reaching in the 20th century, as far as reforms go (his implementation of Vatican II). To leave out the important pontificate Pius XII, could be interpreted as hiding various views on the Church during WWII. I agree with the renaming and with the addition Lateran treaty. Thank's--Ambrosius007 (talk) 17:32, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Further possibilities

• Germanic Christianity - christianisation really. A bit short.
• Christianity in Gaul - long but much of it CE 1913
• Papal States - probably better than Donation of Pepin
• Devotio Moderna maybe
• Jansenism - good long article
• Dechristianisation of France during the French Revolution also short, but more to the point than the main article.

Johnbod (talk) 21:02, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

There is a basic point here, as to include important local events in Germany, France etc. I did originally include US events, but this was not agreeable. Lots of opportunities! A tough decicion, where I would like to be on the restrictive side, given the length of the template. Papal States is a better entry, SI agree --Ambrosius007 (talk) 12:30, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Done some of these. I removed Mysticism as completely inappropriate; Christian mysticism has little on the Counter-ref period - we have more on medieval mysticism. Raphael Rooms and Sistine Chapel Ceiling would be better than the biographies, but I think just having the general art article is best. Johnbod (talk) 13:24, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, this is better, thanks --Ambrosius007 (talk) 14:36, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree that it would be better to leave out most of the biographies. For people unfamiliar with the RCC, the name of a person is not likely to mean much. Far better to link to articles that describe what was important about that person's actions, if those articles exist. Karanacs (talk) 16:29, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

"Germanic Christianity", is that really a proper wording? Wouldn't it be more suitable to have something like "Christianization" and then the referred region or people(s)? Chicbyaccident (talk) 12:27, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Crusading movement

Propose adding Crusading movement to the template, with no other amendment. Doing this under WP:BOLD, any objection happy to discuss here. This young article is to cover This article is about the ideology and institutions associated with crusading. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 17:29, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

Islamic Conquests

Suggest the removal of this, it has very little to do with the History of the Catholic Church.

If anything at all? Norfolkbigfish (talk) 14:34, 12 May 2022 (UTC)