Talk:Zhajiangmian

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Merge with Jajangmyeon

I'd like to propose merging Zhajiang mian into Jajangmyeon, or vice-versa. I can't say I'm certain which, and I'll admit this is based on anecdotal reasons, but I think some might find my reason interesting. There's an interesting cultural story behind this dish. My understanding is that in the early 20th century, there was a large Chinese community in the Korean peninsula, and many of these Chinese families made their living as restaurant owners. Jajangmyeon, developed locally, was a popular dish at these restaurants. It came to a point where the Korean authorities, upon doing some economic exercises, determined that the Chinese living on the peninsula were responsible for a highly disproportionate percentage of the nation's domestic product. The Koreans were apparently unhappy to discover this, and as a means of "remedying" the situation, they imposed a Jajangmyeon tax! This drove away quite a bit of Chinese business.

What followed was, as I understand it, a somewhat comical cultural reversal. The Koreans, either resentful of the Chinese business, or merely aware that Jajangmyeon was only available at Chinese restaurants, considered it to be a Chinese dish. The Chinese, on the other hand, having brought the dish back with them to Shandong province (the Chinese peninsula just across the water) when the Jajangmyeon tax became unbearable, considered it a Korean dish! So, as the story was told to me, Jajangmyeon or Zhajiang mian is both Korean and Chinese, the differences between the present-day national dishes being minimal.

Obviously it would be good to have some written citations to back up this oral history, and I'm guilty for not providing this. But my personal experience is that Zhajiang mian at Chinese restaurants, and Jajangmyeon at Korean restaurants, is actually pretty much indistinguishable. So, without getting into the level of depth I have here, I believe it's correct to say that the two dishes don't really warrant individual pages. Beyond that, I think it would be more descriptive and informative to readers, to have both on the same page.

So, anybody interested in the topic, what do you think?

Cheers, dr 04:59, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not so sure. It looks like the Chinese recipe is far sweeter than the Korean version and doesn't necessarily have the zucchini, either. Salanth 04:23, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea - given that they are basically the same dish (even pronounced the same way in two different languages). There is a large difference taste-wise (I think the Chinese one tastes better, personally), but the general idea is identical. I will also add that I have always had the Chinese one with black bean paste, not hoisin sauce. Never zucchini, but always English cucumber. I think one of the flaws of both of the articles is that they are written with one method of preparation given as if it were the only way, when everybody knows that a given dish is going to be prepared any multitude of ways by different families and restaurants. MaskedEditor 01:25, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with a merge, the two dishes have many similarities, in name, ingredients, and even presentation that one can simply regard them as regional variations of the same dish. Sjschen 22:49, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Even though there is no doubt that Jajangmyeon is originated from Zhajiang mian, I'm not sure if we can simply consider it to be a simple variation. I haven't tasted Zhajiang mian, so I am not here to say we should merge it or not. However, considering its significance in Korea, it might be safer to leave these articles separated, until some good references describing the similarities and differences can be found. In addition, it seems like Jajangmyeon is not Sino-Korean word. If it were, the correct world would be Jakjangmyeon. eDenE 18:03, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I opposed the proposed merge. It is true that Jajangmyeon is originated from Zhajiang mian, but two are different foods just like Japanese Ramen differs from Chinese La mian. Jajangmyeon has evolved in Korea for over 100 years separately from Zhajiang mian. The fact itself that Korean Jajangmyeon could be exported to China shows two foods differ. Specifically, two foods are different in that 1) Jajangmyeon uses Chunjang, onion, zucchini/potatoe, caramel syrup, cornstarch, and meat stock that Zhajiang mian does not use, that 2) as Zhajiang mian uses yellow huang jiang and Jajangmyeon uses black Chunjang, two foods noticably differ in color, saltiness, and sweetness, and that 3) Jajangmyeon, unlike Zhajiang mian, is always served with accompaniments such as danmuji and sliced onion and chunjang.Hkwon (talk) 03:48, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree with above post. I tried Chinese style jajangmyeon in Xian, and the taste was totally different - greater than the difference, for example, of macaroni and cheese and macaroni alfredo. Konamaiki (talk) 15:29, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

As the article itself suggests, could there be certain variations of the dish in China that resemble the Korean version more closely than others? Outside of Shandong, the dish does use the yellow sauce that other people mentioned. But I remember eating it a few times in Shandong where it definitely used the black bean paste and was nearly identical to the South Korean version (and no, it wasn't a Korean restaurant). I can at least attest to the above two posts that there exists two main types of zha jiang mian that look and taste significantly different. --Thumbtax (talk) 16:18, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

My family (Hebei some relatives from Shandong) makes this with soy sauce as well as the soy bean paste ( Kr: Chunjang / Cn: Huangjiang ), with green onion and ground meat for soy sauce, ground meat or suji firm tofu for a vegan one, tomato and / or courgettes, and always with accompaniments like cucumber, green onion, Napa cabbage etc. Sometimes the soy sauce one has cornstarch and sometimes the huangjiang one has sugar, although some huangjiang brands are already sweet especially Ha Ha Bean Paste of Taiwan. Later I had it at Korean friends' houses and didn't notice a difference except Korean stuff like danmuji but essentially no different from Chinese versions that have zhacai. Maradox466 (talk) 04:35, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

A grammatical issue

Regardless of whether the literal translation or phonetic translation should be use for "Zhajiang mian", is it more grammatically correct to say "fried sauced noodle". By adding a letter "d", the noun "sauce" is changed to an adjective. May those who are good at linguistics comment on this? :-) - Alanmak 16:21, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Your first sentence should have ended with at question mark. The answer to the first sentence is no. Saying "fried sauced noodle" just sounds wierd. Just leave the term as "fried sauce noodles". 204.210.242.157 (talk) 17:16, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Move

The English name is not generally known or used; I propose moving to "Zhajiang mian." Badagnani 09:18, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Evidence?—jiy (talk) 03:10, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Google search

• 480 English pages for "zha jiang mian" -wikipedia
• 296 English pages for "zhajiangmian" -wikipedia
• 111 English pages for "fried sauce noodles" -wikipedia
• 79 English pages for "zhajiang mian" -wikipedia

The use English guideline says:

If there is no commonly used English name, use an accepted transliteration of the name in the original language. Latin-alphabet languages, like Spanish or French, should need no transliteration, but Chinese names can use Pinyin, for example.

It seems clear that this case applies here so the problem is to find the most suitable transliteration. Knowing no Chinese I will defer to those who do. - Haukur 15:29, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Zhajiang is the name of the sauce, mian basically refers to noodles. Therefore it seems perfectly reasonable to accept a name which also obeys the rules of pinyin too. Since zhajiang is a complete word in itself which modifies mian, zhajiang mian seems the best choice, despide the 79 English pages cited above. For "zha jiang mian" this would be non-standard pinyin. 84.67.160.16 16:22, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd vote to keep them different despite the same name. Jajangmyeon has become something indubitably *Korean* and as such deserves its own section. Korea is pretty much the only place on earth where the Chinese restaurants are not actually run by Chinese, after all... Willhawkes 13:32, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't it make more sense to give it its own section within the Zhajiang Mian article, and have Jajangmyeon redirect there? Much like the Jiaozi article. I don't really see a downside to this... whereas if you have two articles, any common information (such as historical information) is going to have to be kept synchronized. MaskedEditor 01:44, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

The synchronization isn't particularly problematic, as several of us work on both articles. They're two distinct dishes from different cultures/countries, so I believe that having two articles is fine. Badagnani 01:56, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

It's great that you don't mind synchronizing the information between the two articles, but I think it would still be better not to have that need in the first place. The two forms of preparation are different in significant ways, but there seem to be plenty of food-related articles (most, in seems?) that talk about a dish in general and then give regional variations of it. This just has an aesthetic appeal to it, while there seems to be no justification for having two separate articles. Putting the two countries' variations into one page doesn't diminish from the presentation of either set of information. Does it? MaskedEditor 02:17, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Difference

I would like to point out that Korean JJM tend to focus more on the beans, while Taiwanese ZJM seems to focus more on the meat. Therefore, Korean JJM tend to be blacker than the Taiwanese counterpart.

Box

That box that was just added is horribly unattractive. Can something be done about this? Badagnani 08:30, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

pinyin "standard" vs alternate pronunciations

in northern china, including beijing, 炸 is usually pronounced zhá (2nd tone) when referring to (fried) food items. the 4th tone zhà is used for the sense "blow up, explosion". this is considered "standard" mandarin and is usually listed as such in most dictionaries.

i also noticed that zhàjiàng miàn redirects here. perhaps then, a zhájiàng miàn should be created to redirect here?

• Done. Badagnani 01:38, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Personally I think I've heard zhà as an alternate pronunciation. It doesn't really make sense, but I say we leave it for now. -- ran (talk) 02:55, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

southern mandarin and taiwan mandarin tends not to make the distinction between zhà (to explode) and its heteronym zhá (to deep-fry), with zhà/zà being used for both meanings. but since northern/beijing mandarin is "standard", it should be the default first listed pronunciation. the differences between the two pronunciations and their different meanings are noted in most digital/online dictionaries, including wenlin and nciku. zhájiànɡmiàn is also the only listed pronunciation for their respective entries on the dish alone.221.221.22.145 (talk) 18:41, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

oh, and most menus which transliterate into pinyin will not have tone marks 221.221.22.145 (talk) 18:41, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

additional condiments

fresh soybeans are a commonly offered condiment as well --—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.232.100.151 (talk • contribs)

Starch?

Is corn starch or another similar thickener used to thicken the bean sauce, as is commonly done in Korean jajangmyeon? Badagnani 22:50, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Not in Beijing or Tianjin styles. Only Yellow Bean Sauce or other sauce, but not corn starch.

Karolus 20071026 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.190.32.7 (talk) 16:11, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Sugar?=

Is sugar ever added to the bean sauce while cooking it? Badagnani 23:06, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Never in Beijing and Tianjin styles.

Karolus 20071026

Dajiang

Should dajiang be added as another paste that can be used? Badagnani (talk) 02:52, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

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Proposed merge with Jajangmyeon

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was Don't merge. DSCrowned^(talk) 12:07, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

---

As these two articles describe the same thing, let's merge them together! We can have a little section for the Korean version inside the bigger Chinese version of the article! That article is bigger, but it says a lot of stuff about the Chinese version, including the history and some sections. The history also explains that the dish comes from China, so this article might be the other's home! DSCrowned^(talk) 06:27, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure if you have tried both dishes, but for me they taste and are indeed two different dishes (I prefer the taste of jajangmyeon better, though). --1.252.90.151 (talk) 08:46, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Disagree. Jajangmyeon and zha jiang mian are similar the way manhwa and manga are similar. The details of preparation and style are different enough that they merit their own pages; not to mention, jajangmyeon has had about a century of separate development in Korea (which, admittedly, should be elaborated on in its article). Tranquilled (talk) 16:57, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I think it should be kept as two different articles. If to be merged, it needs a lot of work, as the zhajiangmian article mentions nothing about jajangmyeon; however, the only thing mentioned about zhajiangmian on the jajangmyeon article is that it was originated and mentioned nothing else about the topic. ⍟R2me2⍟ 05:31, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

By the looks of all 3 of your opinions, it looks like we are not going to merge it. Discussion closed. DSCrowned^(talk) 12:07, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This is very interesting - actually i have heard similar anecdotal stories growing up about the origins of Jajangmyun/Zha Jiang Mian as well but the stories about the Incheon area origins were very similar to pop history about the origins of hamburgers/chop suey in that it was primarily fast food concept for the working class in that port city at the turn of the 20th century which became progressively more popular with the general Korean population as time progressed. When I grew up and came back to Asia from the US to work, I travelled throughout the Beijing-Tianjin area, Shanghai and Singapore and tried Chinese variations of Zhajiang mian whenever i got the chance. Also only in Korea (not in Korean Chinese restaurants outside of Korea) there is a Jajangmyun variation called "Yuni Jajang" which very closely resembles the Chinese types as the focus is more on the minced pork and onions and no other types of vegetables/seafood is used, but I cannot tell with certainty whether this version pre-dates the jajangmyun that most people are familiar with or whether it has been re-influenced by Zha Jiang Mian found in Chinese cultures. I don't know if it warrants merging of the pages as i think there is enough difference between the Chinese version and the basic Korean version as they exist today, but it is always so fascinating to see how Chinese food evolves and blends into local cultures (like HK style chow mein that you only see in US Chinatowns) wherever enterprising Chinese people start Chinese restaurants around the world.

Last edited at 05:11, 3 June 2012 (UTC). Substituted at 11:16, 30 April 2016 (UTC)