Talk:Water polo at the World Aquatics Championships

Eternal Table

Just a question...is it accurate to combine the medal totals for the Soviet Union and Russia, as well as Yugoslavia with Serbia and Montenegro? I bring this up because FINA totals Russia and the Soviet Union medals together, but treats Yugoslavian and Serbian-Montenegran medals as separate counts in some lists, and together in others (see [1]).

I suggest that on Wikipedia we either combine both (as presently) or keep a separate count for each. I favor separate counts since it is more consistent with the historical articles (each country has its own). Also, there may also have been athletes from Ukraine or another republic on the Soviet Union team, but are no longer on the Russian team, for example. In fact, in other sports, the DDR and BRD (East and West German) medals are usually kept separate (see Summer Olympics medal count).

I propose the table as follows: 1st: Hungary (9 medals), 2nd: Yugoslavia (6), 3rd: Spain (4, 2 silver), 4th: Soviet Union (4, 1 silver), 5th: Italy (3), 6th: Serbia and Montenegro (2, 1 gold), 7th: Russia (2 bronze), 8th: Greece tied with West Germany (1).

FROM User :Dado (Novi Sad) : I agree to separete medals from ex states (Yugoslavia etc) and today states (Serbia, Croatia,..) because it is the most like true and justice. EX Yugoslavia states DO NOT accept Serbians try to take all medals froma Yugoslavia.(I heard in other way that SSSR ex sattes agree to these medals belong to Russia, so we have 2 different cases here.) Also, Serbia and Montenegro WAS the succesor of SFRY until 2006., when Serbia created new Constitution Act, and procleim self as only state of Serbs and minorities, language as serbian, and in this case Serbia with Vojislav Kostunica renounced the succession of SFR Yugoslavia.

--Ryanjo 00:58, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I made the table, having in mind that Yugoslavia gradually became Serbia and Montenegro, USSR gradually became Russia, and West Germany gradually became Germany. I think it's best to put it this way. Otherwise we will have to rearrange all the other tables in all the other sports, having in mind that West Germany and Germany then represent two entirely different countries.

I mean, since 1998 Yugoslavia kept its name, but consisted of Serbia and Montenegro only. Since 2003 the country that played under the name of Yugoslavia changed only its name to Serbia and Monenegro. It is the same team. The things get more complicated when you go back to the past: Until 1992 Yugoslavia consisted of 6, then 4, then 3, and then only 2 republics. Croatia and Solvenia gained their independence on 14th January 1992, and after that date there was Yugoslavia consisting of 4 republics. After 6th of April 1992, Bosnia broke away, and we had Yugoslavia of the 3 republics. On 27th of April Macedonia became independent,, and Serbia and Montenegro continued using the same name Yugoslavia. So it is a gradual process, not an abrupt one as in the case of the USSR.

Another solution is a compromise: we can make the two tables, you can add the one you desribed below, with the notes: "if we count togheter... if we count separately..."

No, two tables would be confusing. One standard is best. Leave it as it is.--Ryanjo 14:03, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

OK. Y'know, usually one of the descendant states take the place of the ancestor state - Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes was renamed Kingdom of Yugoslavia, later Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia, then Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, then just Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Later the country was renamed Commonwealth of Serbia and Montenegro, and the direct descendant is Republic of Serbia, according to the Belgrade Agreement signed in 2003. So, FIFA and the other major sport associations consider it that way, I though that would be the right solution. The same case is with Bohemia/Czechoslovakia/Chech Rep. or Russian Empire/Russian SSR/Soviet Union/Russian Federation. For example, Nothern Ireland inherits all the rights of the Football Association, not the Republic of Ireland, because it broke away. Usually the one who stays keeps the tradition. Zhix 22:24, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Yugoslavia has dissoluted. See this [2] and this [3]. These are the conclusions of Badinters committee. Nobody seceded. All Yugoslav republics are successors of Yugoslavia.
BTW, who "stayed"? Nobody "kept" the tradition.
Or, if you want it this way, majority of those players who brought the medals for Yugoslavia were Croats. Most European cups have been taken by Croatian waterpolo clubs (Mladost Zagreb, Jug Dubrovnik, Jadran Split, POŠK Split, KPK Korčula), not Serbian. Most former Yugoslav waterpolo championships were won by Croatian waterpolo clubs. And you want to give all those titles to Serbia? Are you crazy? Kubura 00:42, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Another way to settle this would be to accept the totals maintained by FINA here (page 15). The combined Olympic & World statistics lists YUG and SCG totals together (6, as of 2005), but specifies how many each national team won (YUG-5, SCG-1). Maybe an footnote at the bottom? Ryanjo 02:50, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Ryanjo's way seems quite OK, having in mind that it's the official attitude of FINA. To Kubura: Let me remind you that Slovenia and Croatia were officially recognized on 14th January 1992, thus leaving the 4 republics federation of Yugoslavia. Bosnia-Herzegovina left the federation on 6th of April 1992. Yugoslavia had 3 republics for another 21 days when Serbia and Montenegro let Macedonia go away, on 27th of April. then the remaining two republics were renamed as Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Sorry for the Croats, I know they they were a majority, but it's not true that "no one remained". We remained, as we remained now after Montenegro broke up. all the SCG medals are now left fo Serbian statistics, unfortunately, but lots of players were from Montenegro. If hypothetically, Belgrade formed a separate state, all the medals would be left for the remains of Serbia, although almost ALL the players of Serbian national team all from Belgrade. I know that the Croats won the majority of medals for Yugoslavia, but sincerely I did not force you to leave the federation. You wanted so. I don't blame you, your decision. I don't know how to manage this things, except to revert to the previous table, with footnote. Zhix 00:18, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Serbia is not the successor state to the medals of the SFRJ. Most things were divided, namely assets & liabilities. With medals, that is something that is more difficult to divide, but are the contribution of all the republics. 61.196.109.139 06:09, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Zhix, we don't have to pass through the same tirade again. You may say what you want, but Yugoslavia has dissoluted. Nobody "continued" to be Yugoslavia, nobody "remained", nobody let noone. Don't ignore those links I've posted here.
About "nobody forced someone to leave the federation"... that's crni humor. Not funny. See all those edit wars on wiki about that topic. If everything was allright with former country, republics wouldn't choose independence.
"usually one of the descendant states". All republics are descendants. I know that official policy of SCG was that "they are the only successors", but at the end, it turned to be that every republic is a successor.
(Dado Novi Sad: I agree) Zhix, please, nobody wants here to take Serbia's contribution to the former country. On the other hand, maybe this 'll proove to non-ex-YU users why ex-YU has dissoluted and why no republic wanted to stay with Serbia together. Because one republic wanted to usurpate (at any price) for herself other republics' contributions, despite theirs part (it doesn't mattered how big were theirs contributions). Kubura 13:49, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Dado Novi Sad: I agree. Until year 2003. things where unclear and the name Yugoslavia was used to supplement the lack of clarity in case of Serbia, but today all republics has same right to be declared as part of Yugoslavia's sport's success. So the medals in table shoud be separeted and not assigned only to Serbia, but only to ex state of SFR Yugoslavia.

I'm copying from the source [4] :

• 5.4 PARTICIPATION & STANDING BY COUNTRY
  • SRB / SERBIA (See also YUG & SCG)

2007 WCH 4 th , 2007 WL 1st, 2008 OG 3rd , 2008 WL 1st, 2009 WL 3rd , 2009 WCH 1st , 2010 WL 1st , 2010 WCp 1st , 2011 WL 1st, 2011 WCH 2nd, 2012 OG 3rd , 2013 WL 1st , 2013 WCH 7th , 2014 WCp 1st , 2014 WL 1st , 2015 WL 1st , 2015 WCH 1 st Participation: 2 OG, 4 WCH, 2 WCp, 7 WL – Total: 15 2 World title, 2 World Cups, 6 World Leagues

So it's nonsense to say "FINA recognizes Serbia as an inheritor to SFR Yugoslavia and SCG teams". It does not. --Pelmeen10 (talk) 12:09, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

FINA is nonsense. From 1992 Serbia in Yugoslavia are won all the medals and give palyers for national teams. UN recognise Serbia as inheritor of SR Yugoslavia and SCG and thaht act is higher then silly FINA rules. — Preceding unsigned comment added by VucoCar (talk • contribs) 21:43, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

That is nonsense, sport has nothing to do with UN, FINA rules are important!--Anaxagoras13 (talk) 10:52, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

YUG/SCG/SER

In FINA document say this:

Extended content

FINA WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS 1973-2017 ROLL OF HONOUR BY COUNTRY All titles (16) have been won by European teams: '5' titles YUG / SCG / SRB (1986,1991, 2005, 2009, 2015) 3 titles ITA (1978, 1994, 2011) HUN (1973, 2003, 2013) 2 titles URS (1975, 1982) ESP (1998, 2002) CRO (2007, 2017) See, say 5 titles for YUG / SCG / SRB and not split (5). Next WATER POLO WORLD CUP ROLL OF HONOUR BY COUNTRY 5 titles YUG/SCG/SRB (1987, 1989, 2006, 2010, 2014) 3 titles HUN (1979, 1995, 1999) URS (1981, 1983) + RUS(2002) 2 titles USA (1991, 1997) 1 title FRG (1985) 1 title ITA (1993) OLYMPIC GAMES OLYMPIC GAMES ROLL OF HONOUR BY COUNTRY All titles 9 titles HUN (1932, 1936, 1952, 1956, 1964, 1976, 2000, 2004, 2008) 4 titles GBR (1900, 1908, 1912, 1920) YUG (1968, 1984, 1988,/SRB (2016) ITA (1948, 1960, 1992) 2 titles URS (1972, 1980) 1 title FRA (1924) GER (1928) ESP (1996) CRO (2012)

I think that we must putt YUG/SCG/SER togteher like this. Like it say ROLL OF HONOUR BY COUNTRY I know that down have new list but this is first on top of document. — Preceding unsigned comment added by VucoCar (talk • contribs) 09:52, 17 October 2018 (UTC) talk

That's corect! I put that on table! Page 15. DusanSilniVujovic (talk) 19:49, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Instead of putting YUG/SCG/SER, you only put SRB. But look at page 12, page 16, page 22-23, 35-37 etc. They always split them. Now this is from page 49:

SRB / SERBIA (See also YUG & SCG) 2007 WCH 4 th , 2007 WL 1st, 2008 OG 3rd , 2008 WL 1st, 2009 WL 3rd , 2009 WCH 1st , 2010 WL 1st , 2010 WCp 1st , 2011 WL 1st, 2011 WCH 2nd, 2012 OG 3rd , 2013 WL 1st , 2013 WCH 7th , 2014 WCp 1st , 2014 WL 1st , 2015 WL 1st , 2015 WCH 1 st Participation: 2 OG, 4 WCH, 2 WCp, 7 WL – Total: 15 2 World title, 2 World Cups, 6 World Leagues

You should stop presenting the same source. Pelmeen10 (talk) 14:11, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Pelmeen10 This is a FINA, official source and stop vandaliz this!!! This source upload in 2015! DusanSilniVujovic (talk) 22:27, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

The source says "2 world title" for Serbia, not 5. Pelmeen10 (talk) 08:54, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

"FINA considers Serbia (since 2006) as the inheritor of the records of Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (1945–1992), Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (1992–2003) and Serbia and Montenegro (2003–2006)" - this is not correct, we can't write it. FINA writes 2 world titles for Serbia and other medals as we currently have. Besides that if you think logically, we can't sum up countries with such different area/population. Pelmeen10 (talk) 18:49, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

• @Pelmeen10: I blocked DusanSilniVujovic for edit-warring. You also took participation in edit war, so take this message as a warning. This kind of behavior in this article has to stop immediately. The right way to solve this dispute is thru discussion, not thru edit-warring. Vanjagenije (talk) 10:27, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

References

/* Medals summary */

• • - Whatch page 15 https://www.fina.org/sites/default/files/histofina_wp_2018_final_0.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.228.69.16 (talk) 13:52, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Yugoslavia not the country with the most titles for World Cup ? FINA says it, why shouldn't we ?

Hi everyone,

After reading all of these discussions, I am just curious why is Yugoslavia (still) not the country with the most wins at the world cup when FINA document on page 26 clearly states in the part that talks about World Cups in particular, the following statement:

ROLL OF HONOUR BY COUNTRY

5 titles YUG/SCG/SRB (1987, 1989, 2006, 2010, 2014)

4 titles HUN (1979, 1995, 1999, 2018)

URS (1981, 1983) + RUS (2002)

2 titles USA (1991, 1997)

1 title FRG (1985)

1 title ITA (1993)

Can someone, please, give me a clear answer why is Wikipedia not following the official source of the statistical information and why are we allowing any user to be "more knowledgeable" than the official association that follows the sport?

No, this has nothing to do with the fact that I am Serbian by nationality. This is strictly related to the official source that clearly states something that is not stated on Wikipedia and yet there has been many different users who are trying to claim their correctness in their statements yet the official source is very visible and it is coming from the official site of fina.org just so there is no discrepancy in regards to valid source.

FINA has clearly indicated that Serbia has claimed all of the titles that Yugoslavia has had. The fact that some people here are having issues with it, let me remind you who Igor Milanović and Aleksandar Šoštar, just to name the few so I am not searching for more because if you follow water polo in any way, you should know about these two legends of this sport. They are both of Serbian nationality and they both have been participants while Yugoslavia still existed as a country so no, it is not a true statement that Croatia players "deserved" it more than Serbia. FINA, as the association that belongs to Water polo world has clearly indicated that all of the medals won by Yugoslavia "belong" to Serbia so therefore Serbia has 5 of them as mentioned in the beginning of my post.

@Vanjagenije: Since you have been involved with the article editing part, and as an administrator, can you, please, correct this issue and block any future non-valid corrections without valid source proving the change ?

Thank you !

Боки ^{Talk page ↔️ Contributions} 14:18, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Edit: I am going to add other people that were involved previously in this discussion @Ryanjo: & @Zhix: just to hear their opinion.

I will publish additional links that confirm that Serbia inherited all the medals of the former Yugoslav republics, but the medal table is still being vandalized @Боки:, @Ryanjo:, @Zhix:, @Vanjagenije:

• - This text is from official LEN source (see a text under the picture) https://swimswam.com/serbia-tops-spain-in-shootout-for-4th-straight-water-polo-crown/ Some other guys (BudvaMontenegro) put this link many years ago https://www2.len.eu/?p=12675 but now this is death link. Anyway this is a same text here (8th gold medal for Serbia)
• - This is from FINA and LEN official PDF document https://web.archive.org/web/20150701102849/http://www.fina.org/project/docs/histoFina/HistoFINA_VIII.pdf
• - Mateša is the first man of the Croatian Olympic Committee. In the title he says: All medals until 1988 belong to Serbia https://www.jutarnji.hr/vijesti/hrvatska/matesa-sve-olimpijske-medalje-do-1988.-godine-pripadaju-srbiji-i-tu-nema-pomoci-1542930 and this is a biggest portal in Croatia (jutarnji.hr)
• - This is official site od Serbia national water polo team https://www.waterpoloserbia.org/index.php?id=454

Table with all flags and medals (like in ice hockey) is maximum correct for Serbia and Russia too. We have the same problem with vandalism on European championship too