Talk:Warriors (novel series)/GA3

GA Review

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: Sadads (talk) 02:06, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

A little about myself: I am an English and History undergrad, with all kinds of crazy interests. Though I have not done much with Children's literature, but I am active in WikiProject Novels, I hope to help in as many ways as possible. I do have a real life, and this review may take up to a week, I will make comments below in sections for you to respond to and a checklist of the GA nomination requirements, which I and only I will check off. If I am for some reason neglecting this review or am not reviewing this article properly, feel free to request a new reviewer, Sadads (talk) 02:06, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

GA Requirements

1. Well-written:

(a) the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct; Doneand

(b) it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.  Done

2. Verifiable with no original research Done:

(a) it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline;

(b) reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose); and

(c) it contains no original research  Done.

3. Broad in its coverage: Done

(a) it addresses the main aspects of the topic; and  Done

(b) it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style) Done.

4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each. Done
5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. Done
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio: Done

(a) media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content; Done and

(b) media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions. Done

Comments on quality

Lead

First, this is a good article, why are there so many references in the lead. If the lead follows WP:Lead then those facts should be available elsewhere in the article. If the facts are vital statistics, the line in the infobox should have the citation.Sadads (talk) 02:11, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

• Done Derild4921☼ 15:48, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Settings and Character's section

• Do we need to list all of the clans and their traits here? It is overwhelmingly long and unimportant in general to describe the traits of each of the clans, and the whole social structure of their lifestyles, could we make this even more concise? Most of this section relies on the books themselves not on the critical secondary sources, such as the field guide or book reviews, so with this much detail you are also beginning to push the limits of Original Research, Sadads (talk) 02:20, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Ok, I have changed the see also the main and will delete some information that is covered in the Characters article already.
• Warrior code and Tribe of Rushing Water ? that doesn't need this much depth, too much Sadads (talk) 02:22, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
  • The warrior code probably doesn't belong, but the Tribe is an important theme topic and will be featured later in the series so it shuld stay. Derild4921☼ 15:55, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

  Lets try the condensing these things then, considering how many companion works and literary criticism you have found for much of this, I wouldn't be surprised if you could write a whole article on the society of the Warrior's series without doing Original Research, Sadads (talk) 16:19, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

• Clan hierarchy should be covered more extensively in the characters article, here a paragraph or two would suffice, and, by the way, each of the terms shouldn't be in bold, Sadads (talk) 02:23, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
  • I'll shorten this part and unbolden. Derild4921☼ 15:55, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Done, shortened. Derild4921☼ 16:17, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Remember to fix the references you broke, Sadads (talk) 16:27, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Series section

• I know how hard this is with so many books, but for the first four sections of the series section, I challenge you to remove one paragraph of text, by condensing them. I know hard it is to simplify complex plots (I had to alot for Quicksilver (novel)) but trust me, too long plot sections make the reader exhausted, just by thinking about it. You don't want the article to be too plot heavy, if anything the two sections plot and Setting and Characters should be less than half of the total text, Sadads (talk) 02:27, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
  • I'll try my best on condensing these and I think I have an idea for the Original series after working on it for a long time. Derild4921☼ 15:55, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
    • Done the original series now I will do the New prophecy and power three ones. Derild4921☼ 16:35, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
• Do the subsections from Field Guide onward need to be seperate sections could they be one section "Other books" and have either headers using semicolons or without subheadings at all?Sadads (talk) 17:45, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
  • IMO, the super editions should stay a separate section, but the manga can be put together. I'm not too sure about the field guides as they are different from the other books. Derild4921☼ 17:54, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
    • That sounds good, just want to reduce the number of excess sections headers, Sadads (talk) 20:02, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
      • Changed, how is it now? Derild4921☼ 20:43, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
        • Looks much better, less busy. I hope you don't mind the nitpicking, the article is pretty well done, just needs a little more polishing to get it where it ought to be for GA. Sadads (talk) 21:39, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
• No problem. Derild4921☼ 21:43, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
• "Feathertail gives her life to kill him, saving the Tribe and her friends." in "Warriors:The New Prophecy", please rephrase to be less colloquial, more specific about the action.Sadads (talk) 22:04, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
• "In Starlight and Twilight, Leafpool and Crowfeather develop feelings for each other"- same issue same section, Sadads (talk) 22:05, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
  • I think I've got it. Derild4921☼ 22:27, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Inspiration and origins

• This section should be the first one after the lead, the plot and fictional world did not get developed until after the authors were inspired and pushed to develop the books, Sadads (talk) 02:29, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

  Other GAs don't seem to do this.--Res2216firestar 03:31, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

  According to Wikipedia:Manual of Style (novels) you are right, that is a personal preference on my part I guess, Sadads (talk) 15:32, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't really care about this part. Derild4921☼ 15:55, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

• clarify who she is in "When she reveals this, Jayfeather and Lionblaze to realize that she is the third cat in the prophecy, as the beavers were in fact very far away" under the header "Warriors: Omen of the Stars", Sadads (talk) 01:42, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
• also, "he fifth book of the series was also revealed as "The Forgotten Warrior" where one lost cat may return to the lake home." needs a citation if the title of the book isn't common knowledge and you are going to leave the citations for the other upcoming books (which I recommend), I place Template:cn there to help you find it, Sadads (talk) 14:23, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Done, I deleted it as it was added before with the ref of the 7th erin hunter chat which has yet to be released. Derild4921☼ 14:30, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Images

• The article seems to be a little under illustrated, is there anything that would make the article have a little more visual diversity that is not fair use? Especially in the first couple sections. Maybe the covers to the box sets of the sub-series? I know that would be more fair use stuff, but it would give a lot more visual diversity to the page, Sadads (talk) 16:30, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Hmm..images are my weakness, but I'll see if Brambleclawx is better than me at finding and identifying free images. Derild4921☼ 16:35, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
    • I've done my best for the book sections, adding boxed set covers. If you feel the Graystripe's Trilogy image needs to be cropped tell me. Obviously, I can't find images to illustrate the heirarchy section. Brambleclawx 22:33, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Other books section

• What does current mean in "the latest one features current SkyClan." ? No time/space reference anywhere else, Sadads (talk) 01:45, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
• Need a citation for "The second will feature the early days of the Clans, which will be released sometime in 2012", Sadads (talk) 16:40, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
• Need a citation for " One more is also planned for publication.", Sadads (talk) 16:42, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
• Need a citation for "The book was published after participants in an online poll were able to submit what they wanted to see in a new Warriors book.", Sadads (talk) 16:44, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Done all except the last, hopefully Bcx will know where the ref is. I'm going to be gone a while so just post anything you see! Derild4921☼ 17:23, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I removed the unsourced statement. I can't find a source for it (and it certainly is not mentioned on Warriors Wiki, which often has really obscure facts). Brambleclawx 22:39, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Ok, will do. I just finished my first read all the way through will do another one this evening, and double check refs, Sadads (talk) 18:07, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Grammar and style

I am finding a whole lot of grammar and style issues throughout this whole article, especially in the plot section for the series. Please read through this section very carefully, aloud and make sure that it says exactly what you mean it to say. I am bound to be missing things in my read, the more eyes on it the better, Sadads (talk) 01:48, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• I'll try my best with this. Derild4921☼ 14:32, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

  Anything you can do, would be great. We are closing in on a well written article, I will give it a few more through reads this week (I am still only about 1/2 through the article as you can probably tell by my comments). I will give a solid hour of review either today or the next day, trying to polish some more, Sadads (talk) 14:35, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I've copyedited the article a lot, and it's prose is very tricky, partly because of the complex plots. I'll try to make it better again...Brambleclawx 22:39, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Editions

• "The first two books have been printed in Poland." needs a citation, Sadads (talk) 16:58, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Done that. Derild4921☼ 21:57, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Sources

• Overall the sources look reasonable, I am going to take them on good faith because this is not an FA review. A few trouble spots: Not so sure about all the Amazon refs, usually they can be found in other locations, if they are the only source you can find right now that is fine for GA definitely not for FA ( the best books of 2007 ref is fine). Also, the formatting on the last several have "Hunter, Erin" as the work, is this intentional? Doesn't make sense to me, all of those are written by "Erin Hunter", so in every citation format I know, that needs to be at the beginning. That is the largest inconsistency I noted. Sadads (talk) 23:13, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Yes, the abundance of Amazon refs were noted before, but I can't seem to fins anywhere else I can cite. I think the ones listed as Hunter, Erin were just newer one's that I forgot to format correctly. I will get to that. Brambleclawx 23:22, 25 August 2010 (UTC) They were old refs I hadn't corrected
  • If it is any better, we could use the release dates from [harpercollins.com here] instead as I usually do for the separate book articles. [1] be used as well. Derild4921☼ 00:58, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
    • Double check to make sure that is all that is involved in those references, but I believe that would be a better source, yes. It is probably where Amazon got the info to begin with, Sadads (talk) 02:16, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Will do. I'll use the children's one since it's enabled on my cpu. Derild4921☼ 12:50, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Comment(s) from Airplaneman

• Paragraphs in the lead reduced from five to four (disregard the edit summary; apparently, I can't count).
• Paragraph 3: In addition, the series has a website that the authors update with news. – aren't there games, promotional items, and other stuff on it? This sentence makes it seem like it only contains news.
  • Will adjust. Brambleclawx 23:22, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Comments

The "themes" section really is lacking in the sources department. There's an entire paragraph and a few sentences with nothing. Perhaps this can be remedied? WhiteArcticWolf (talk) 14:25, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Missed that, thanks, definitely needs sources, Sadads (talk) 14:26, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Will do, just finished changing the refs. Derild4921☼ 14:31, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Now Done. Derild4921☼ 14:59, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Round 2 comments

I am reviewing the article a second time, this time reassessing how the articles is written stylistically and keeping an eye out for OR and other issues like that, Sadads (talk) 17:10, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

OR issues

• In "Setting and Characters" the sentence "StarClan cannot influence events in the real world; however, in Firestar's Quest, Spottedleaf visits Firestar and Sandstorm, and treats an injured warrior, showing that StarClan indeed has some level of effect on the real world.[4]" makes an assertion based on the evidence found in Firequest, therefore is original research, please remove or modify or find a source, Sadads (talk) 17:10, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Fixed Derild4921☼ 17:44, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Better summarization

• Overall, I think this is looking in much better shape for lengthiness involving plot, etc. However, I think paragraph 4 of "Warriors: The New Prophecy" could be summarized better, it seems to give a little too detailed approach to the politics of the tribe. Gloss over more detail that can be covered in the individual book articles, Sadads (talk) 17:23, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Took out a few sentences. Derild4921☼ 17:44, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Style issues

• "The series follows three young cats named Hollyleaf, Jayfeather, and Lionblaze, Firestar's grandkits, and therefore, the kin of his kin" in the section "Warriors: Power of Three" is a little on the complicated side, simplify please.Sadads (talk) 17:25, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Made clearer. Derild4921☼ 17:44, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
• "During a Gathering, Hollyleaf reveals this to all the Clans, and then runs away into the tunnels, which collapse on her." in the section "Warriors:Power of Three", should Gathering be capitalized?Sadads (talk) 17:32, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Yes, it is capitalized in the booka unless that doesn't matter? Derild4921☼ 17:44, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
    • Fine, wanted to make sure it is intentional, Sadads (talk) 17:50, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
• "modern SkyClan." in "Super editions". What does "modern" mean? That doesn't make sense. How about youngest generation of Skyclan, or something like that?Sadads (talk) 17:37, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
  • It's called "modern" because that's what they're called in the books since SkyClan was destroyed long before the Clan was reformed in Firestar's Quest so the one in the book is the "modern" SkyClan and the old one that was destroyed it called the "ancient(I think)" SkyClan. I'll try to make that clearer.
    • Yes, it's Ancient SkyClan for the group up until Spiderstar disbands the Clan, and Modern SkyClan starting when Firestar reassembles the Clan. (SkyClan's Destiny, allegiances) Brambleclawx 17:49, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
      • What about "new" SkyClan?Sadads (talk) 17:50, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
        • It's specifically called "Modern SkyClan" by the authors, as well as in the "allegiances" section (characters list) at the front of the novel. Brambleclawx 18:00, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
          • Okay, capitalize both then to make it clear that is a delibrate proper noun thing, Sadads (talk) 18:02, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
• Another issue with Editions section, which series is the "main series" in "The books in the main series have also been released in an eBook format."? Their are four series, and then a macro series, etc. Sadads (talk)
  • fixed by adding "four" main series. Brambleclawx 18:08, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Missing refs

• You are missing refs for a couple of the publications of the Super editions, just to make it more consistent in the article, I would add some. Sadads (talk) 17:38, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Derild's got that. Brambleclawx 18:08, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
• "the Scottish Highlands and the Forest of Dean" in the influences section don't have refs, does it fall in the next ref or does the one at "Loch Lamode" carry over?Sadads (talk) 17:46, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Scottish Highlands and Loch Lomond go together, and I'm trying to figure out where Forest of Dean came from... Brambleclawx 17:59, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
    • I trust you to fix it, otherwise great job you pass, will do all the things necessary,Sadads (talk) 18:15, 26 August 2010 (UTC)