Talk:Walker Corporation

Controversy section?

Would it be prudent to add a "Controversies & Criticisms" section as per other articles relating to large corporations? Specifically regarding proposed building of resorts on endangered animal habitats and political donations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.225.80.61 (talk) 09:44, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Not without specific information about published, reliable sources that reflect the information you are proposing to add. General Ization ^Talk 14:37, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Possible sources

I'm going to list sources that could potentially be used for the article here. I'm not going to list all of them (since a lot of them are about one specific event/project).

• https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-02-26/walker-corporation-pushes-ahead-project-new-suburb-buckland-park/13195214 - This is about their Buckland Park project
• https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/subscribe/news/1/?sourceCode=AAWEB_WRE170_a_GGL&dest=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.adelaidenow.com.au%2Fnews%2Fsouth-australia%2Fdeal-sealed-for-adelaides-festival-plaza-with-lang-walker-after-almost-a-decade%2Fnews-story%2F0f45ddb186e7dede7221a7d4cc0bdee9&memtype=anonymous&mode=premium&v21=dynamic-cold-control-noscore&V21spcbehaviour=append&nk=5f9f62d4e5849d683e37a057889be1d9-1655362150 (PAYWALLED) - Another Adelaide-related project, based on what little I can see of it.
• https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/may/10/toondah-harbour-wetlands-developer-accused-of-not-being-honest-about-its-plans - Toondah. (This would be the specific thing that most of what I'm finding is about.) If I may be blunt, the controversy over the Toondah project may be enough in and of itself to justify an article on it.
• https://www.afr.com/property/walker-gains-key-approval-for-900m-adelaide-project-20161111-gsnehc - Discussion of the Festival Plaza deal

I'm fairly certain this is not a complete list; looking up stuff for real estate companies isn't my forte, doubly so when it verges into the politics topic areas. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{a little blue Bori} 07:02, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Updates

The content has been updated in chronological order, similar structure to other property development Wikipedia pages. Content is factual and succinct, only listing relevant projects and details. COI has also been declared on COI, as well as including changes on this talk page. Logo is out of date and images have been attached. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orangessour223 (talk • contribs) 23:13, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

And I've reverted because you're doing the exact same things as Hattie124, which makes the article come across as promotional at worst and investor-fishing at best, with bad sourcing to boot. Wikipedia is not the place for exhaustive blow-by-blows of a company's history. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{a little blue Bori} 00:05, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

I have used the Lendlease wiki page as a structural guide https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Lendlease#cite_note-5 , so how else do you suggest I structure it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orangessour223 (talk • contribs) 00:18, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Forget "how do I structure it" (because that question is just going to set you up to fail), try "How do I cite everything"? A lot of the content you added is cited to sources we wouldn't ordinarily use (routine business news) or wouldn't use full stop (website homepages). And while the page on Lendlease has no maintenance tags, a much better example would be Cracker Barrel or any similar Good- or Featured-class article. There is no one-size-fits-all solution here, especially when most of Walker's notability is arguably from the Toondah controversy (something which Lendlease doesn't have any real equivalent to). —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{a little blue Bori} 00:42, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

I also need to update the logo. How can this be done? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orangessour223 (talk • contribs) 00:33, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

You'd need to upload a new logo, likely locally per WP:NFCC. You won't be able to do that for a bit. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{a little blue Bori} 01:08, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi Jéské, Thank you for your quick response. I appreciate your instruction and will follow this carefully. I do however think you aren't treating Walker with the respect it deserves. Walker is one of Australia's oldest and renowned developers and has contributed greatly to urban transformation projects, heritage restorations and is a leader in environmental sustainability in commercial office spaces. I think looking back at Hattie124's comments I could see projects like Woolloomooloo Wharf and Broadway being mentioned which would not be standing today had it not been for Lang Walker and his company. The fact Lang Walker has an Order of Australia medal for his services to the development and philanthropy is indicative of the company it is. But I note that hasn;t made the cut either and has been deleted by contributors. The sweeping statement you make about Walker's notability being arguably mainly for a Toondah Harbour controversy, is short sighted and shows a lack of knowledge. Overall if you want Wikipedia to be a source of correct information for the public we want to work with you to make that happen. Not being able to update the correct logo just isn't right. I think everyone commenting on this thread is aware of Toondah Harbour and the importance it holds and at no stage is there a suggestion it should not feature in this Walker page, but it's extremely questionable why it is in the opening Intro section when it should be in the history section under the year it happened. There is arguably far greater factual information in the context of Walker's history and its impact on Australia than that. Also not once has it been picked up the emotional language used in the statement "important internationally listed Ramsar Wetland". The word "important" is not in the text of the article itself reference as a source and this is an opinion inserted by the author of the comment. If we are about fairness on Wikipedia then this statement should be edited immediately. In summary, we would love to be contributors to the wikipedia community to educate and inform while keeping factually correct. Kind regards — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orangessour223 (talk • contribs) 02:32, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

That post is itself a very good explanation as to why us volunteer editors have zero respect for PR flacks like yourself. It smacks of entitlement. So, since you want to play the "marketroid" card I'll respond with a "Bastard Helper From Hell" card, using this diff as the version of the article whose sources and content I will critique. Get some coffee; this is going to be a rough one.

• Owned and operated by Executive Chairman AO Lang Walker, Walker Corporation delivers projects across the property spectrum including residential, retail, commercial, industrial and resorts. - This is blatant promotion and should not be in the article full stop.
• Most notably, Walker Corporation is responsible for the development and restoration of a number of significant Australian sites, including King Street Wharf, Finger Wharf, Broadway Shopping Centre, Rhodes Waterside, Collins Square and Parramatta Square. - This assumes facts not in evidence - again, the overwhelming majority of the sources I can find via a Google search (to the point WP:COATRACK would be an issue) are about the Toondah scandal. (string: "walker corporation")
• The company was established Lang Walker and Alec Walker, as A&L Walker Pty Ltd in New South Wales in the 1960s. - Source? (If it's about or involves a living or recently-departed person, it MUST be sourced or removed.)
• The company specialised in earthmoving and excavation for major infrastructure works. - The citation here is to a Forbes contributor. As far as we're concerned, Forbes articles not written by their staff are op-eds and cannot be cited.
• In 1972, Lang Walker founded The Walker Group and expanded the development arm of the business into the Sutherland Shire of Sydney, focusing on residential and industrial projects throughout the 1970s. - I will not comment on the source (as it's paywalled) but literally the back half of this sentence can be gotten rid of - everything after "...of the business" is overdetailed, superfluous tripe.
• In the early 1980's, The Walker Group diversified its portfolio further to encompass industrial, commercial, residential developments and civil engineering projects in Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane. - Irrelevant. Your audience is not the investors or customers who would care about this at all.
• In 1988, The Walker Group was officially renamed Walker Corporation Pty Limited. - Your sources for this are a company-research website which has very little we can cite (raw statistics are a waste of our time) and the same Forbes contributor op-ed.
• In 1993, as a joint manager with Macquarie Bank, Walker Corporation participated in the establishment of The Industrial Property Trust of Australia, a listed property trust. - The source cited here does not make this exact claim, and for that reason this is unsourced. We cannot read between the lines when it comes to sourcing; the source must explicitly corroborate the claim as presented. This is also irrelevant in any event.
• After two decades in the property development and civil engineering sector, Walker Corporation joined the Australian Securities Exchange in 1994. The first half of this sentence is irrelevant. Everything after the comma is fine and sourced well enough.
• Lang Walker retained his position as the Managing Director. Source?
• The major projects delivered during this time included the Woolloomooloo Wharf, Broadway Shopping Centre, King Street Wharf and student housing in Melbourne, Brisbane, Adelaide and Sydney. - Irrelevant.
• In 1999, Lang Walker sold his shares in Walker Corporation Ltd to Australand Holdings Limited, to focus on running his private development company McRoss Developments Pty Ltd. - The back half of this sentence is irrelevant.
• Walker reserved the right to reuse the Walker Corporation name after January 2003. - Should be merged with the sentence above to make a paragraph.
• In 2003, Lang Walker exercised his right to reuse the Walker Corporation name, renaming McRoss Developments Pty Ltd as Walker Corporation. - Government documents (such as the one you cite) are insufficient for this as they are primary sources and this is a biographical claim that requires a strong third-party source to corroborate it.
• In 2006, Walker Corporation sold over A$1.45 billion worth of assets to Mirvac while developing over twenty projects across retail, commercial, residential, and industrial sectors. - As I mentioned when I removed this claim from the article initially, the source provided here is dead. Please cite the actual Wall Street Journal source and not this dead mirror of it.
• Walker Corporation has a project pipeline of $25 billion over the next 15 years throughout Australia and Malaysia. - Irrelevant.
• The company is working on several large urban development projects[...] Let's break these down, shall we?

• Parramatta Square: Mentioned in passing in the non-paywalled DT source
• Adelaide Festival Tower: The SMH.com.au source, the AFR source I link above, and the Adelaide Now source I link above all cover the Festival Plaza as a whole - not the tower. This claim is not supported by any of the citations provided.
• Maroochydore CBD: Covered by the Courier Mail source, but I cannot determine if that source is in-depth enough to be usable due to the paywall.
• Western Sydney University Bankstown campus: Covered by one of the Daily Telegraph sources, but I cannot determine if that source is in-depth enough to be usable as that specific one is paywalled.
• Riverlea Park: Covered by the ABC.net.au source cited here.
• Appin: Covered by the non-paywalled Daily Telegraph source cited here.
• As a whole? Promotion-by-overdetail. The only people who'd get excited about this list are investors and clients - not Wikipedia's actual audience. (If you try to make the claim investors and clients get their information from Wikipedia, I'll point out they have access to far better and more in-depth resources than a crowdsourced encyclopaedia written for Joe Blow from San Antonio and that anyone relying solely on Wikipedia for investment decisions is a fucking idiot.) Exhaustive lists of random junk doesn't help an article; if anything it damages it.

• Walker Corporation delivered the Crest at Austin project in the township of Mount Austin in Johor Bahru. This 376-acre integrated development saw the delivery of 568 residential terraces. - Unsourced promotion-by-overdetail. You're supposed to be summarising what sources say, not fishing desperately for investors.
• The organisation is working on one major urban transformation project, Senibong Cove, a 86-hectare development. - The source here is fine for verifying this fact, but not much else. It's also in desperate need of a BuzzCut^TM: "Senibong Cove is Walker's main Malaysian project."
• Lang Walker purchased Kokomo, a private island located on the edge of the Kadavu Island Group in 2011. The resort opened for operation in 2017 with 21 Villas and five residences. - Irrelevant in this article and would be better in an article on Lang.
• In Canada, Walker Corporation developed 46’ North Quebec, a resort located on the 46th parallel in Quebec, Canada. The development was part of a joint venture with AXE Immobilier. - This is sourced to a website homepage. Get rid of it.
• Walker Corporation built two projects in the United States, Slopeside, Montana and Sunnyside Ridge, Aspen. Both luxury estates were located near major skiing villages, and once built were later sold. - Unsourced promotion-by-overdetail.

And as for the sources not already discussed? Ref 2 is missing critical bibliographical information (and is thus worthless as a citation) and I will not comment on the The Australian sources as the lot of them are paywalled. I will also note that the version of the article you wrote doesn't mention Toondah what-so-ever, when the bulk of the reliable sources I could find were about that project and scandal specifically.

You're free to ask at the Help desk, the Teahouse, or #wikipedia-en-help on IRC about any aspect of this you object to, but if you do so while glossing over or ignoring the criticism I've given you here you're more apt to get yelled at even more by people who have even less tolerance for paid editors than I do. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{a little blue Bori} 03:48, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

WP:NPOV Compliance & Verbosity

A few concerns around the neutrality and verbosity of the (clearly already controversial as per this Talk page) Toondah Harbour section in the introduction:

• Currently says "a major Liberal party donor." According to the major ABC investigation into the project's controversies (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-09/the-developer-the-whistleblower-and-the-minister-toondah-harbour/10487806) Walker Corporation donated large amounts to both major Australian parties. Should we broaden to "a major political donor"? Or given the meeting is the activity of concern is the donor status even relevant?

• Since the Ramsar Convention is an international treaty by definition any Ramsar site is internationally listed, so saying "an important internationally listed Ramsar site" feels redundant (would be like saying "an internationally-listed UNESCO World Heritage Site") and this international status is explained on the linked page. Could be shortened to "a Ramsar site".

• Might be worth explaining the relationship between the project boundary and the Ramsar site boundary at issue since that may not be clear initially (found this QLD Govt Environment Dept document that shows the overlap clearer – http://epbcnotices.environment.gov.au/_entity/annotation/56796272-0a36-e711-998c-005056ba00a8/a71d58ad-4cba-48b6-8dab-f3091fc31cd5?t=1494482503750 on page 14). Perhaps "[…] the Ramsar site covering areas of its Toondah Harbour […]"?

• Toondah Harbour has its own Wikipedia entry with a long section on the development and according to that page the project is more than "apartment and retail" (describes a marina & commercial space) – suggest replacing "its Toondah Harbour apartment and retail development" with "its Toondah Harbour development" (with the link).

In summary my suggested wording would be:

In August 2016 Walker Corporation used a meeting with then Minister for the Environment and Energy Josh Frydenberg to lobby for boundary changes to reduce the size of the Ramsar site covering areas of its Toondah Harbour development.

Jéské Couriano I see you've already been through quite a back-and-forth over this section (and much, much more...), do you have any thoughts? – Twelvepast (talk) 12:29, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

I like that wording quite a bit, Twelvepast. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{a little blue Bori} 12:32, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

I appreciate your quick feedback! – Twelvepast (talk) 12:41, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Refs & Punctuation

A friendly reminder that according to WP:MOS references go after the adjacent punctuation. See Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Punctuation and footnotes. Twelvepast (talk) 00:40, 1 November 2022 (UTC)