Talk:Voiced dental and alveolar taps and flaps

Isn't this sound supposed to be a tap? I've gotten the impression that flaps are made not by simply tapping the tip of the tounge, but rather by flicking the tounge from a retroflex position, like with retroflex flaps. Anyone feel like commenting? Peter Isotalo 12:32, May 3, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it's a tap, at least in Spanish. I've changed the first line, but didn't bother to redirect the article. Most of the others are flaps, though I'm not sure about the alveolar lateral (it feels like a flap to me, but that's not saying a whole lot). kwami 19:38, 2005 Jun 6 (UTC)

standard in americain english

Removed the word "substandard" from the paragraph about this sound in the english language. It is an allophone of t and d in unstressed syllables in standard americain english. I hear it on the news all the time.

This is correct. The editor who added "substandard" was mistaken. Flapping/tapping of t and d is a feature of standard American English. Not flapping t and d is an acrolectic affectation. Nohat 07:36, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Is the word "better" really pronounced like "bera"? I've never noticed it. Is there an example that I can listen (e.g. youtube)? --62.158.88.144 (talk) 23:55, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

That's not quite what the article says, since "bera" (at least in English) would sound like [ˈbɛɹə]. If you want a youtube example, here's the Parkay "better butter" commercial. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 05:22, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't get it. I've listened to that commercial, and it still doesn't sound anything like the ɹ examples for other languages. It sounds like a d. 16:42 30 October 2019 (UTC)

audio file

Does the audio file give a good example of this sound? I am maybe wrong (which happens quite often), but I don't consider the example correct. All these files are recorded by one person, aren't they? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.70.117.103 (talk) 21:38, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Scottish English

Scottish English uses an alveolar tap for "r". This should be added to the table. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 09:29, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Southern German and African French

Hello all. I have noticed a significant problem in this article and the trill article. As far as Southern German goes, it uses an alveolar tap in most cases. For emphasis, a trill can be done, and depending on the person and the context, may be used more often in certain cases (for example in the word Schmarrn). In fact, both exist. The alveolar tap is just much more common. Also, in African French, as far as my experience goes, an alveolar tap is far more common than a trill. My expertise on that topic is much more limited, but I have never heard a trill in African French, just a tap. Let me know what you all think! Syrupface (talk) 20:34, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Nasalized alveolar tap

Would this article be the place for a section on the nasalized alveolar tap [ɾ̃], used at least in American English for (post-stress) intervocalic /n/ and /nt/, i.e. inner = inter- [ˈɪɾ̃ɚ]? — ˈzɪzɨvə (talk) 22:46, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Awkwardness

It's really odd that this one is titled as a "tap" and the other taps/flaps are titled as "flaps". I'm gonna move this article so that it's titled as a flap like the other ones.~Wimpy Fanboy ^{t g} 20:19, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

 Done moving page to "Alveolar flap".~Wimpy Fanboy ^{t g} 20:23, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, this one seems to feel like a flap, just like all the other ones. It's more commonly called "flipped r" than "tapped r".~Wimpy Fanboy ^{t g} 20:26, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

As far as I've seen, the tap is more common (both the occurrence and the description), especially outside of English. It's not a big deal either way, IMHO. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 23:48, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Voiceless alveolar flap in Swiss German dialect?

Have you ever heard a Swiss pronounce the final 'r' sound in German words like Gefahr (danger) or Verkehr (traffic)? At least in some regions, I'm fairly sure that this is a voiceless alveolar flap they use when they pronounce these words, especially on said final 'r'. What do you think? Remember that in Standard German, the final r in particular can be approximated as a schwa in phonetics but does never sound like an 'r' as such. -andy 77.7.101.167 (talk) 16:33, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

That's possible. Remember that there are two phonemic schwas in standard German German, namely close-mid/mid /ə/ and open-mid/near-open /ɐ/, the so-called 'a-schwa'. Unstressed ⟨er⟩ is always pronounced as the latter. Peter238 (talk) 16:25, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Feedback

I think this article about alveolar flaps is well written. It is easy to understand and where terms should be defined, there is a link to refer to another page. There are no noticeable errors in the language that hinders a reader's understanding of the article. It is also well organized into sections and sub sections. Aside from links to other articles for the purpose of defining terms, the article is also well referenced with reliable, academic sources. All of the sources are cited and it contains no original research. Many areas of this topic are addressed including alveolar flaps from different languages and how it is compared and contrasted to taps. There are minimal to no personal opinions, therefore neutral. It also gives the views of different standpoints. Although this article shows images of IPA symbols, it doesn't give images of how the tongue should be in the mouth. Saggital heads should be included. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SakuraChii (talk • contribs) 06:55, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Apical

It now reads "Its place of articulation is apical dental, apical alveolar or apical post-alveolar, ...". Does this mean only an apical articulation is possible? --JorisvS (talk) 08:07, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

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Japanese /r/

Moved from User talk:Nardog

Hi Nardog.

I think our illustrative examples of sounds should be good examples of those sounds. That a consonant in some language may sometimes be kinda sorta like the target sound is not, IMO, a good way to illustrate that sound. Japanese /r/ is not typically [ɾ]. We don't need every language in the world that has the sound as an allophone, just a sampling of languages that a reader might be familiar with or that are interesting in some way.

Also, our example of kokoro was particularly bad, because Japanese /r/ is most [l]-like before /o/. It's most like [ɾ] before /i/. — kwami (talk) 05:59, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami: Then why do we even have articles about sounds which are not found to occur phonemically in any language? The section is titled "Occurrence", not "Sampling". We had a discussion precisely about what to include in these tables at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Linguistics#Unmerge all of the vowel articles just a couple months ago and you're welcome to resume it there before you start removing more examples.

And what is the source for your claims about Japanese /r/? And have you look at Ladefoged & Maddieson (1996:243) lately? Sure, they say,

Some of the reports of alternations between ɾ and l in a variety of languages may be attributable to different perceptions of what is in fact a consistent articulation, particularly when the conditioning environment is said to be vowel environment, as in Nasioi (Hurd and Hurd 1966), Barasano (Stolte and Stolte 1971), and Tucano (West and Welch 1967). In general, back vowels seem to predispose toward the production (or perception) of lateral variants, and front vowels toward rhotic variants. In Chumburung (Snider 1984), the phoneme l has a rhotic variant which occurs medially in words with narrowed pharynx (retracted tongue root) vowels.

but all they say about the Japanese liquid is:

In Japanese, Shimizu and Dantsuji (1987:16) note that

Some Japanese use both a lateral approximant [l] and a flap [ɾ] as completely free variants. Some Japanese use a lateral approximant [l] in the word initial position and use a flap [ɾ] in the intervocalic position. Some use a lateral approximant [l] in each position. Others use a retroflex voiced stop [ɖ] in addition to these sounds.

That's it. They say not a single word about the alternation of a lateral and a central articulation depending on vowel environment in Japanese. Labrune, Vance, and Okada all designate [ɾ] (alveolar or postalveolar) as the primary allophone of the Japanese liquid. You're welcome if you have anything to contribute with sources that show I'm in the wrong, but please just don't make a POINTy edit and proceed to change a cited statement into something the source doesn't say and insult me. Nardog (talk) 06:35, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

First of all, Okada doesn't say that, but that a lateral realization is common in all positions. Labrune does say the central flap is common, but he also says that it's taken to be the default realization because it's not lateral. That is, they chose the non-lateral allophone as prototypcial because it's not lateral (the logic eludes me) and then argued that the phoneme is not lateral because it's prototypical allophone is not lateral, which is circular. I have yet to check on Vance. You didn't bother to cite Akamatsu (1997), who states that the sound is better described as [ɺ]. And how is SOWL relevant when according to you they don't address the issue? I find that logic puzzling as well. My POV on vowel-dependent allophones comes from people correcting my pronunciation. Anyway, this is clearly not a simple situation. Do we really want examples where we have to say, "this is not a good example"? At least, if we wish to be honest with our readers, which I do. — kwami (talk) 07:02, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami: We don't because we don't have to say it. All that matters is Labrune and Vance say it's the "[proto]typical" realization. (And why would Okada pick ⟨ɽ⟩ as the symbol if he didn't think the central articulation was more common than lateral, which he only says is "not unusual"?) Your POV doesn't matter because WP:NOR and WP:V are our core content policies. Wikipedia is not a soapbox or a place to right wrongs. Nardog (talk) 07:13, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

We're picking illustrations of sounds. Our illustrations should be clear ones, not muddy, confused or contested. I don't know what Vance says, as I don't have access, but our other sources don't support this, at least not very well. That Japanese /r/ is sometimes a central tap/flap is not the issue. The issue is whether it's a good illustration of a central tap/flap. And if you're going to argue again that our illustrations don't need to be good, so why not use bad ones, that's hardly a professional attitude. I've pulled several other languages from that list that were poor illustrations, in some cases not even a flap but a trill because some editor didn't understand the difference. Languages that contrast flaps and trills, like Spanish, are good illustrations. Languages that almost invariably have [ɾ] as the realization, like Arabic, are good examples. Languages where a sound might be [ɾ] or might be [ɺ], or might be [ɾ] but might be a misanalyzed [r], are not good illustrations. They're not clear, they're not straightforward. We could use them if we were desperate, as we are with some rare sounds, with a note to warn the reader, but why bother with such a common sound? We're not desperate for examples of [ɾ]. — kwami (talk) 07:35, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

And doesn't our example sound lateral to you? It's not a particularly clear [ɺ], but then it's not a particularly clear [ɾ] either. I really don't understand your insistence on keeping this particular bad example. — kwami (talk) 07:42, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Okay, that at least clarifies the point of contention and what you've been driven by to remove the examples. And I don't agree, nor do I see a consensus for it. I've brought this up at WT:LING, and I would appreciate if you participated in that discussion toward a consensus before you remove more examples. Nardog (talk) 08:05, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

I've removed other poorly supported illustrations. E.g. Slovenian. Our source here says it's a flap. Our source in the main article says it's a trill. Both are RS's, so how can we give Slovenian as an example of a flap? — kwami (talk) 10:32, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Georgian

Georgian /r/ is phonetically [ɾ]

source: https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/A7DCF9606BA856FCA5CC25918ADB37EF/S0025100306002659a.pdf/standard_georgian.pdf 2A01:CB10:65:400:D5FD:F0A9:115E:74ED (talk) 23:36, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

incomplete audio files

Some of the audio samples, such as the ones for Japanese, Spanish, and English do not contain complete audio and not the words they should have. Yxtqwf (talk) 16:47, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

I did some testing and they sound correct in Edge, but not in Firefox. I'm not sure if this is a problem with the files or the browser. Yxtqwf (talk) 16:48, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

This issue does not exist anymore. Most likely it was only a browser bug.Yxtqwf (talk) 22:23, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

English "better," recording???....

According to the article, the TT in the middle of the word "better" - in American English and some other dialects - is sometimes pronounced like the R in the middle of the Spanish word "caro" (expensive), that this is an allophone of D and T. I'm very skeptical of this, as I've never heard an American (or any other English speaker) pronounce this word that way. Moreover, the recording which is embedded in the article to try to demonstrate this - En-us-better.ogg.mp3 - actually has the standard American pronunciation, with a D sound, such that "better" is a homophone of "bedder." There's also a recording embedded to demonstrate the Spanish "caro" - Caro_Voiced_alveolar_flap_Latino_Spanish.wav.mp3 - and one can easily hear that the sound of the R in "caro" is completely different from the sound of the TT in "better."

I happen to speak both Spanish and American English, and while the tongue placement is similar for the respective consonants in the middle of these words, as both involve a quick "tap" against the roof of one's mouth, the motion of the lips and the air movement in the throat/chest is very different. -2003:CA:873F:5622:BDA8:3D1D:370F:FA70 (talk) 07:32, 27 June 2024 (UTC)