Talk:Vladislav Ardzinba

Source

PapaCarlo has recently demonstrated that Ms. Chervonnaya is not always 100% correct (see here). Could you present one more source supporting this claim? Alæxis_¿question? 14:41, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

PapaCarlo is not an expert on Abkhazia. Chervonnaya is an expert on Abkhazian history, and she witnessed the war from the Abkhaz side. Her quotes, references and sources are used in many publications on Abkhazia. And nobody claims to be 100% correct on anything. Ldingley 20:14, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, if it's true it can't be the only source in the world, I think. Alæxis_¿question? 20:21, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

No, so i will add more. Thanks for suggestion. Ldingley 20:34, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

That's not the only problem here but I'll wait for your refs first. Alæxis_¿question? 20:35, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Hey, there is no need to drag me into this. I agree with Luis -- I am not an expert on Abkhazia, and Ms. Chervonnaya is certainly more qualified on the matter. I also agree that nobody is 100% correct. Funny, how you are trying to turn arguments that defeated your point earlier for your benefit, Alex. Just because I found one little inconsistency (probably based on incorrect secondary sources) does not mean all her information must be dismissed. I proved that inconsistency, why don't you try to do the same.(PaC 00:03, 3 June 2007 (UTC))

You can't say the same source is absolutely correct in one case (when it suits you) and somehow wrong in another one. Alæxis_¿question? 05:27, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I never said any of that. That's what you are doing. The point is, Ms. Chervonnaya is generally a reliable source. Of course nobody is perfect. Do your homework Alex. If you think she is wrong, prove it like I did. Otherwise, stop wasting other people's time. (PaC 19:47, 3 June 2007 (UTC))

Alex, you cant dismiss Chervonnaya, just because she writes things which you don’t like or your POV does not match her writings. She has vast experience in history and ethno-conflict of that region, plus she was the witness of the events in Abkhazia (and as we all know he was there to support the separatist cause until confronted with reality). Anyway, in her book she is using tons of references, both primary and secondary sources. I remember how you protested when i used Kolbaias sources because he was Georgian while you use Russian sources (Russia-which is one of the conflicting sides in this Abkhazia mess) therefore, not a neutral source. Ldingley 18:08, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean the results of the census published in Saint-Petersburg in 1905? As far as I know Russia didn't become involved in the conflict by that time (in fact had been involved in rather bloody conflict with Abkhaz not very long before).

Now back to the source you've brought. The "White book of Abkhazia Kholodov" gives the following results in google - [1]. You can see that there's no mention of such a book. However there is a book called White Book of Abkhazia 1992-1993: Documents, materials, testimonies edited by Florenskii, P.V. It's cited here, for example. Is this the book you've given reference to? Alæxis_¿question? 18:52, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Russia is directly responsible and taking part in Abkhazia crisis so dont BS me Alex. Here [2]

Here is the source: The Conflict in Abkhazia: Dilemmas in Russian 'Peacekeeping' Policy By Dov Lynch, p 153, passage 5, Arzimba interview Ldingley 19:45, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I'll look through this book then. Full version of it is located here. Alæxis_¿question? 19:44, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Of course It is. It was Russia who committed Circassian genocide, which overthrew Abkhaz nobility and emptied the region. It was Russia of Stalin(a Georgian) and Beria(another Georgian) which tried to "colonize" (a Georgian term in late 19th century Muscovite newspapers, for destroying whatever remaining Abkhaz in Abkhazia), It was Russia, who in the middle of the post soviet war which donated tanks and jets to Georgia. It was Russia, which forced an inhumane embargo against people of Abkhazia. Back then nobody blamed Russia for that, Checens and cossacks were scapegoats as wall as Abkhaz diaspora in Georgia. But when war broke in Ossetia, It is again Russia. What kind of hypocrisy is that?

Check this one: The Conflict in Abkhazia: Dilemmas in Russian 'Peacekeeping' Policy By Dov Lynch, p 153, passage 5, Arzimba interview. I just found it!Ldingley 19:45, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I just viewed your link, where is the chapter there for fall of Sukhumi? Chapter 27, Fall of Sukhumi, page 65. Ldingley 19:48, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Heh thats not the reference, its some Abkhazia propaganda web site. The chapters are 30 in that and only 7 are shown. The rest are removed. LOL Ldingley 19:51, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

indeed. Maybe I'll be able to find the rest on some Georgian propaganda site :) Alæxis_¿question? 20:08, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

The Conflict in Abkhazia: Dilemmas in Russian 'Peacekeeping' Policy By Dov Lynch, p 153, passage 5, Arzimba interview: "...But Mr Ardzimba, there are large number of Georgians still living in Abkhazia, how can you deal with this reality? Ardzimba answered after a minut of silence: "If they dont want to be part of our country, we will simply drive them out. Its their choice will it be willingly or by force...." Ldingley 20:09, 4 June 2007 (UTC)