Talk:Venetia Stanley

Untitled

I wrote this article on 27 January. It was written off the top of my head, late at night, and needs a lot of revision as well as some fact-checking. (Actually, I know the facts are solid — I didn't include anything I wasn't sure of — but there are more I'd like to look up and add.) Look for a rewritten version in the next week or two. This version has so many redundancies... — M.E.McIntyre

This Venetia Stanley HAD NO DESCENDENTS. Of the three sons who survived her, one - George? - died in his mid-teens in Italy. The eldest, Kenelm, died in a battle in the English Civil War in either his late teens or his early twenties. John Digby, who spoke to Aubrey about his parents, is the only son to have survived them, but died around 1670 with no known issue. Therefore, Venetia Stanley Montagu (which should have been the title of your article, as it is how she always turned up in my research), was not a descendent: she was from another branch of the Stanley family.

The first Venetia had no brothers, so the line died out in her generation, at least under the Stanley name (her sister Frances married and may have had children; her sister Petronella was supposedly a nun). Thus, the closest Montagu can be related to Venetia is by being a descendent of a relative of Venetia's father (there are fairly comprehensive Stanley genealogy records available online, if anyone is really bored enough to track it down). Montagu received the name most likely because it became a popular name for women in the Stanley family, as Kenelm became a popular name in the Digby family and in general for English Catholics.

Also, this Venetia Stanley WAS NOT A COURTESAN, a misconception which I attempted to clear up in the article. She was a famous society beauty in a very licentious court, but she was supported by family money. There is no evidence to suggest that she was ever really anything but sought-after, possibly abducted, possibly sexually active (not unusual in the court of James I); the "courtesan" label seems to come almost completely from the fact that she kept her marriage secret for several years. If there were conclusive evidence that she had made her living as someone's mistress prior to her marriage, I wouldn't object to the "courtesan" label, but as it is, it seems like four centuries of trickle-down sexism to me.

This article was written, particularly under this title, because she was referred to in the Digby article, and incorrectly at that ("Venetia Hanley"). Venetia's story is a major part of Digby's story, and Digby is a minor figure in both scientific and English religious history; her story also ties into those of Van Dyck and Ben Jonson.

Sorry, I didn't log in before I wrote this - vm.

Also, it's my opinion that the Wikification of this article has been slightly too robust. If Wikifying things like "horseback riding", "pseudonyms", "venom" and "Catholic", things which are self-evident to most people in the modern world, why not wikify "marriage" and "sons" as well? Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a dictionary. If this becomes too enthusiastic, every word other than the articles (part of speech) will wind up Wikified.

Venetia Stanley (1887 - 1948)?

I suggest an article on the Venetia Stanley (a descendant of the Venetia Stanley covered in this article) who was the friend and correspondent (and alleged lover) of Herbert Henry Asquith, as well as the wife of Edwin Samuel Montagu. When I think of the name "Venetia Stanley", the 20th century one comes to my mind more readily than the 17th century one. — Diamantina 10:39, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, she's certainly an interesting figure. Charles Matthews 12:05, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree. The 20th centuty Venetia Stanley tends to be thought of as the Monica Lewinsky of World War I England, but was a more complex and fascinating figure than that.

Here is a brief listing that I found for the 20th century Venetia Stanley from thepeerage.com:

Beatrice Venetia Stanley (b. 1887, d. 3 August 1948)

Beatrice Venetia Stanley was born in 1887. She was the daughter of Edward Lyulph Stanley, 4th Baron Sheffield and Mary Katherine Bell. She married Hon. Edwin Samuel Montagu, son of Montagu Samuel, 1st Baron Swaythling and Ellen Cohen, on 26 July 1915. She died on 3 August 1948.

— Diamantina 12:26, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

She was the youngest daughter. I quickly found some decent sources: Raymond Asquith letters (she was godmother to Perdita, his second daughter); Cynthia Asquith's diaries has plenty. Philip Ziegler's book on Diana Cooper is most interesting: seems HH Asquith went round there within a day or so of being dropped by Venetia, with a letter proposing some sort of arrangment to take the place. Why don't you create Venetia Stanley (1887-1948)? Charles Matthews 15:23, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

OK. I've done a stub for our Venetia. I have the Roy Jenkins bio of Asquith with me, but I think I should read the Brock edition of the letters and Naomi Levine's Politics, Religion, and Love to really to the subject justice. Ah well — if I can't check them out from the library, I'll see if I can buy an inexpensive copy of at least one of the books.

Thanks for the suggestion!

— Diamantina 17:55, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Recent Developments

I wrote this article about five years ago, and I agree with the notations on it: it needs in-line citations and has too much personal reflection (that is, while I know the facts to be accurate and supportable, I agree that it doesn't sound as neutral as it should). I'll try to work up a new list of cited works, at the very least, but it could be a few months. 24.145.132.195 (talk) 20:34, 26 September 2010 (UTC)