Talk:Valencian Community/Archive 2

The name is not correct

Land of Valencia?. This name is invented by the wikipedians, the name in english must be Valencian Community or Community of Valencia, or simple: Valencia (autonomous community), because the name of this region is Valencia, like the capital. But Land of Valencia is not a name with english tradition and what is the mean?. I read some lines ago that the most usual name in internet is Community of Valencia, good, use this name for the Valencia autonomous community. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.120.17.126 (talk • contribs) January 26, 2006.

Exactly. I cited 9 sources in English (official and academic), and someone above cited a US government source--none use Land of Valencia. The disagreement here is with Joanot, who insists on using Land of Valencia for imaginary political reasons. Malandi 22:13, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

"Okay, here's the deal"

Okay, here's the deal. Neither the Spanish nor the Catalan version of this article (funny how there's no Valencian version) say anything about Valencian being a "separate" language from Catalan. They talk about it being a more conservative variety of Catalan, or the name of given to the langauge elsewhere called Catalan. So, before anyway goes calling it a separate language here, I would suggest you go try that out with your OWN COUNTRYMEN AND COUNTRYWOMEN first, Castilian-speaking, Catalan-speaking, and Valencian-speaking, before you try and pull one over on us dumb English-speakers. I mean, really. If you can pull it off on either the Spanish or Catalan site, then perhaps we can discuss changing the English-language site. But the English-language site is no place to be airing your intra-Spain political recriminations. Blondlieut 22:20, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

"the Misteri d'Elx, which has been declared part of "World Heritage" by UNESCO."

there's no context or explanation for what this is or why it's important. Blondlieut 16:13, 15 February 2006 (UTC) "The same law contains no mention of Castilian as its own language."

I assume "own language," pròpia llengua/propia lengua, is a direct translation from the Spanish/Catalan/Valencian/What-have-you. It does not work in English. I think what the writer may mean to say is that "the law contains no mention that Castilian is a language over which the Valencian region has some claim of ownership" or some such. At any rate, this idea that a lengua/llengua is a region's "own," (or perhaps "proper") given that in the article goes on to say that Castilian is oficial throughout Spain. Well ... official languages, regardless of whatever some local enactment might say, I would think would have some standing as the "own" or "proper" language of at least some Valencians, particularly the not insignificant portion of the population that speaks Castilian, and those in the western portion of the region who have always spoken Castilian. You know, as an American with great sympathy for the aspirations of those who wish to reassert the perrogatives of Catalan/Valencian, the unstated arrogance here is thick enough to cut a knife with, and is not likely to win any friends, and more importantly ... VIOLATES NPOV. Blondlieut 21:34, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

It's just a bit silly. I mean, in Catalan or Spanish, Paisos Catalans is not "Catalan Lands" in English, is it? Silly, silly, silly. Why would one even translate "pais" as "land" in English?? Land of Valencia. Valencia Land. It sounds like something at Disney World, not a real place. Blondlieut 02:22, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

"Valencian language is considered legally the proper language, according the "Law of Use and Education of Valencian" approved in 1983."

Okay, this isn't really English. Does the writer mean to say "The language of Valencia is properly Valencian, pursuant to the Use and Educuation in Valencian Act of 1983," or "The Valencian language is properly called "Valencian," as noted in the Use and Education in Valencian Act of 1983." I honestly cannot tell from the muddle of the current sentence (which may be a muddle of the English, a muddle of the thoughts, or a muddle of both). Sorry to be so harsh, but I think there's more of a pushing of an agenda here (i.e., "considered legally the proper language"), and demarcating the distance between Valencian and Catalan and Castilian, than in writing a useful and helpful encylcopedia article for English speakers. Ditto "Land of Valencia/Valencia Land" Duh, to quote Homer Simpson. Blondlieut 02:31, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Okay .... now I'm really getting annoyed. If Valencian is its "own" language (and not, say, any more different from Catalan spoken in Bareclona than American English is from British English), then why isn't there a Valencian wikipedia? And if its own language, than why is Joan Fuster, born in "Valencia Land" (NEXT STOP ON MONORAIL BLUE, VALENCIA LAND, AN E-TICKET ATTRACTION IN THE SPANISH PAVILLION!!!), and who writes in a language that looks suspiciously like Catalan, listed in Wikipedia under "Catalan-language Writers" instead of "Valencian-language Writers"? Oh, I know why, that's because in English, Valencian describes organges and a flavor at Starbucks, not a language, and not a "land," regardless of whatever nonsense you put in here. Sorry about that. Blondlieut 02:49, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

There's a really wonderful word in English: polysemy. It means ... a word can mean more than one thing. Valencia is ... a city, a province (created, I believe .. not by Valencians, but artificially, by the Spanish State, as I recall), and a "region," of some sort). As to the latter, seems to me, the silliness of having this anywhere other than under "Valencia (Autonomous Community)" is born out by the very box on Spain's Administrative Structure down at the bottom of the article.

I live in Virginia. Virginia is "officially" not a state. It's a commonwealth. Yet, Virginia is listed in Wikipedia under Virginia. And the name of the country (aHem) is the United States of America (not the United States and Commonwealths of America).

Would I expect Valencians (or anyone outside the Old Dominion) to have to look for Virginia under "Commonwealth of Virginia" just to statisy my own personal Virginianist agenda rather than under "Virginia" under the theory that it's not a state? Are we going to put Rhode Island under "Rhode Island and Providence Plantations" as this is the "real" name of that state?

The mind boggles. 14:09, 15 February 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Blondlieut (talk • contribs) .

Blondlieut, reading through this, I can tell that you are annoyed, but I honestly cannot tell what changes you want to make in the article, or with whom you are arguing; "now I'm really getting annoyed" is an odd remarks amidst a monologue. - Jmabel | Talk 03:43, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

One can be annoyed without arguing. Anyway, I made the changes regarding the name of the language, which aren't nearly as severe as my comments are.Blondlieut 05:53, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

The name of "Land of Valencia" is used by valencian government nowadays, and it's English perfectly such as "England", "Holland", "Switzerland", "Finland", "Poland", "Ireland", "Scotland", etc... Of course, the literal translation of "País Valencià" is "Valencian Country", such as Basque Country or Catalan Countries. This name isn't being related to this translation as I've answared you on Talk:Joan Fuster already. I suppose that "Land of Valencia" would be more or less the same literal meaning as "País de València" (such as "País de Gales", Wales). --Joanot Martorell ✉ 17:38, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Joanot, you've proven the silliness of this, and the fact that you're tone-deaf to the usage of this in English. We indeed say Wales in English, not Wales Land or Land of Wales. Fascinating, it may occur to you, this is not the Catalan or the the Valecian or the Spanish language version of Wikipedia, it's the English language version, and "Land of Valencia" sounds stupid. It is downright illiterate. Do you want people to think that Valecians are dumb, stupid and illiterate people? Is that what you want? Is that the impression that you wish to give? Then by all means stick with the name "Land of Valencia," because that's the impression it gives. It is not English. You are the only person who has written on the discussion page that is in support of keeping that name. I will be changing it back, unless you can drum up support from someone else who speaks ***English***, as this is the ENGLISH-LANGUAGE version of Wikipedia. Blondlieut 02:16, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

To take but one (but certainly not the only) example of the confusion created by this ... let me point out the stupidity in English created by the phrase when combined with other phrases, such as "Seaports." So, in the links section, one of the links is "Seaports of Land of Valencia." (First off, let me point out the the phrase as an article missing in English ... would you like to guess and tell me where it is??) Now unless a English-speaker were very well versed in the (silly) politics of naming, there are at least two ways to interpret this (based on the ridiculous notion that "Land" in English corresponds to "Pais" in Spanish/Catalan, rather than Tierra/Terra ... recollecting of course that "land" in England is indeed ... Ingleterra/Angleterra in Spanish/Catalan, not Pais Angles/Ingles, for example) ... it could be ... Ports terrestres de Valencia (whatever that means) or Ports de (la) terra valenciana (English needs an article here, by the way, which it's currently lacking because of this silly "Land" construction)(wherever that might be). Again, it's just simply illiterate in English. Why can't it be "Seaports in the Community of Valencia?" I dunno. I mean, last I checked, "Comunidad" was at least one of the translations for "Commonwealth" as in the official name of the (real) country of Australia; if Australia can be the Comunidad de Australia, why is this a put-down when used for the (not-quite-as-real-as-Australia) country called Valencia?

It's not. And, oh, by the way ... the formulation you keep changing happens to be idiomatic, natural and perfectly understandable English, and "Land" is not. Blondlieut 05:42, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

"País" in Catalan/Spanish not only means "Country" in English, but also any territorial unit such as a province, a region, a country, a state, a county, etc... whatever territorial unit you want. Anyway, this form is used by Valencian government, not by me (my personal preference is "Valencian Country"), and when a political representation of valencians are using this form in English ("Land of Valencia") in all touristic publication for the most important events in Valencia, the literature isn't important. The literature could be important if we would have some doubt about the name, in order to help ourselves to choose the correct one, but not when it's clear about an official use in English. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 08:59, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Joanot, you're missing the point. This being the English-language version of Wikipedia, at the moment what's at issue is the meaning of the English word "Land," not the meaning of the Catalan or the Spanish word Pais. And "Land" does not mean what you think it does, nor does it mean what you propose, nor does it translate "pais" in any meaningful way. At any rate, I believe we've been through the tiresome excerise of the name in English, and its official status in English-- that being that there is no such creature. That there may be bureaucrats in various minor agencies of the Autonomous Community who have (quite incorrectly) used the term "Land" in English (along with a whole host of other various unidiomatic uses of our grand mother tongue) does not change our beloved mother tongue, would not merit an entry in the Oxford English Dictionary, and more importantly ... does not even begin to meet the criterion for forestalling my eventual changing of your reversions. And that's simple, and a very low threshold-- finding one (1), just one other native speaker of English who happens to agree with you. (That's generous indeed, seeing as how consensus would appear not to be on your side, for a fair reading of this discussions page)

Good luck with that, Joanot. Good luck indeed. Blondlieut 13:00, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Hey, in your spare time, why don't you go harrass the Norwegians on their Bokmal page who clearly have this as Valencia (Autonomi), as do the Swedes? Stop vandalizing the pages of us poor Anglo-Saxons for a while, and pick on the Nordic countries. Blondlieut 13:10, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

According to Cambridge dictionary[1], the word "land" means "a country" in a more nearest sense of "region" but not "nation". On Merriam-Webster dictionary[2] this word means also "country" or the "the people of a country". In Oxford English Dictionary[3], it's also "a country or state". In these dictionaries, there are several exemples about using the word "land" as meaning of "region" or "country", such as Cambridge Dict. ("The group want to promote their ideas in schools throughout the land."). I'm seeing that you're disappointing all these English dictionaries, not to me. If you dislike this name, I understand you because I also dislike it, but the fact is that's being used by Valencian government. If you disagree with them, complain them instead doing it here. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 14:39, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Again I would point out that there's more than something a bit tone-deaf in your example. The phrase "throughout the land" uses "land" as a common noun; the issue here is that "Land" is capitalized as used as a proper noun. It has an overly poetic, and as has been pointed out several times "Disneyland" quality to it. Are there any examples where "Land" is used as a separate word, but capitalized, as if part of a proper noun? That usage in English seems artificial in the extreme, and very "Disney," as in ...."The Land of Tomorrrow," brought to you the good people at General Electric. It's not real English, it's publicity English, and yes, it's Tourism Department English. Very good of you to point that out as an example.Blondlieut 19:36, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

This is more selective thinking and bias on Joanot's part. He just claimed that the most recent tourist publications use Land of Valencia preferentially (implying official status). Again, I already disproved this earlier--

The four publications under Collection product guides use only Region of Valencia.

The four publications under Theme leaflet collection use only Land of Valencia.

The sixteen publications under Districts of the interior collection use only Land of Valencia.

The eightteen publications under Magazine CVNews use only Region of Valencia and cite the President of the Valencian Regional government (cf Presidente de la Generalitat Valenciana)

He says that the name is being used by the Valencian government. The Valencian government has no preference (I even emailed them about this). Also, it's been pointed out that in official publications from the Spanish government (not Valencian) and foreign governments prefer the "Autonomous Community" nomenclature:

http://www.constitucion.es/constitucion/lenguas/ingles.html. Spanish Constitution, official translation to English. Note that "Comunidad" and "Comunidad Autónoma" are translated as "Community" and "Autonomous Community".

http://www.uv.es/~webuv/ingles/guide.pdf. Guide to the University of Valencia, English translation. On page 5, "Readers will find in it the widest study offer for both official and UV–specific degrees in the Valencian Community, delivered in three campuses and six scientific areas."

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9074684. Encyclopedia Britannica article on Valencia. Note the textual use of "comunidad autónoma", the translation as "autonomous community" at the beginning (defining the term for the rest of the article).

http://www.orbilat.com/Encyclopaedia/V/Valencia_community.html. Orbis encyclopedia article on Valencia. Same as above.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/v/valenc-rgn.asp. Columbia encyclopedia article on Valencia. Translated as "autonomous region".

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761573717/Valencia_(region_Spain).html. MSN Encarta online encyclopedia article on Valencia. Same as above.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=valencia. American Heritage dictionary entry on Valencia. "A region of eastern Spain on the Mediterranean coast..." There are separate entries for the province and city of Valencia.

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/valencia. Meriam-Webster dictionary entry on Valencia. "region & ancient kingdom E Spain" There are separate entries for the province and city of Valencia.

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/valencia.html MSN Encarta World English dictionary entry on Valencia. "1. capital of the autonomous region of Valencia in eastern Spain."
Malandi 18:00, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Consistent city names

Some of the city names are in Spanish with a Valencian version in parentheses, others in Valencian with a Spanish version in parentheses. Let's have one or the other for consistency's sake.

In some cities there is historically Spanish-speaker, and in others there are Catalan-speaker, and so it's respecting the local endonym. By exemple, there are the names Orihuela (Spanish) and Oriola (Catalan) for the same city, but there is using Orihuela because it's historically Spanish-speaker. You can see the Spanish-speaker area and the Catalan-speaker area in a map shown at Valencian. There is a border used with a red line. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 19:49, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I believe Joanot makes a good point. Perhaps all that would become clearly when this article becomes more than a stub.Blondlieut 18:27, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Statute being reformed?

I think this sentence is out of place in the first paragraph: Nowadays, the Valencian Statute of Autonomy is being reformed in order to recognize officially Valencia as a nationality, pursuant to the Spanish Constitution of 1978.

The opening paragraph should set the scene geographically and administratively, that's it--just like in all the other articles (including the Spanish version) Malandi 06:55, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure "statutes" are reformed. Perhaps the autonomous status of Valencia could be "presently" (obviously not "nowadays") undergoing reformation (although that makes me think more of Martin Luther more than it does a political process). It seems like so much semantics, but I think what the sentence is attempting to convey is that the "Autonomy Statute" as the various estatutos de autonomias are called elsewhere on English Wikipedia, is being "amended" (that's what we do when we change constitutions and the like, but perhaps "modified" if one wanted to make certain that more "adding materia" is going on) to recognize Valencia as a "nationality" within the Spanish State.Blondlieut 15:53, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Right, if the statutes haven't actually been reformed yet, then it's a proposed reform or simply a proposal. The sentence conveys something overly definitive and reeks of non-NPOV Malandi 18:52, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Opening paragraph

I think the opening paragraph should set the scene geographically and administratively. This means: saying what major administrative subunits Valencia governs and where it is in Spain (see this article as an example http://www.orbilat.com/Encyclopaedia/V/Valencia_community.html). Saying that it is in Eastern Iberia isn't necessary, since people can figure out that Spain is almost exclusively in Iberia, thus saying eastern Spain is sufficient. Also, things like land border could be placed in the sidebar instead of the first paragraph, since it isn't a critical feature of Valencia. The coastline, however, is, since Valencia has a heavy tourist industry. Perhaps mentioning some comparative details would be better, like "xth longest in Spain" Malandi 18:48, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Castilian vs. Spanish

I think translation castellano as Castilian is a bit overkill, since the Castilian v. Spanish distinction is really a political issue for the inhabitants of Spain about the naming of the language. In English when you say Castilian it refers to a specific dialect of Spanish and not the Spanish language, the latter of which is the intended meaning of castellano in these cases. In English the term Spanish is overwhelmingly preferred. Malandi 10:17, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

In Valencian vs. Catalan case it's the exactly same matter as Castilian vs. Spanish. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 18:55, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

I think you missed one of my points. It's 'not' the same for this reason: in Spanish they're using 'castellano' to refer to the Spanish language and divorce the word from nationality. In English 'Castilian' is rare to find when referring to the 'Spanish language' (and not the dialect of Castile). Malandi 23:37, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Inclusion of "Valencian Community"

What's the big fuss with including "Valencian Community" as one of the possible translated names? This translation appears in scholarly articles (cited above), tourist guides, Universities in Valencia, and a sizable number (the largest number) of webpages in English. The Valencian gov't has already mentioned it does not act in any official capacity regarding the translation of the name, so that can't be an issue.

I really don't see the leap of logic that it takes here to accept Valencian Community: Comunidad Autónoma <--> Autonomous Community; Valenciana <--> Valencian; Comunidad Valenciana <--> _____________. Given the specific nomenclature of the autonomous communities, the meaning is pretty clear. In English, Country is usually associated with (independent) states, which neither the Basque AC is nor Valencia, but people accept those names in English. Malandi 00:18, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

About "Catalan Countries"

It is frequent to find texts in which Valencia is included within the “Catalan Countries”, nevertheless I want to correct this error of political origin (Catalan nationalism) so generalized. The Kingdom of Valencia never has belonged to any “Catalan Countries”. The Valencian culture cannot be described like “Catalan”, because these two cultures are different and have diverse origins (the Kingdom of Valencia exists from before the conquest of Jaume I). The Valencian language comes from the occitano, and therefore it has a parallel origin and development to the Catalan language, but it does not come absolutely from this one. Really, the Valencians are not “Catalan” in any aspect; its history, language and culture do not have to be distorted.

I agree with you. It´s ridiculous when some people pretend to say that people from Valencia or the Balearic Islands are Catalans. Let´s be serious, Catalonia never was a country and never was a Kingdom, why do they do that?. Imperialism in the 21st century?. Please!!!This is an encyclopedia!!!And the same for those who pretend to say that Valencian is a different language to Catalan. Can anybody tell me any linguistic or academic organization who defend that theory of two different languages?. This is an encyclopedia not a place where political vindications are made.

You'll never give up saying sci-fi arguments about Valencian coming from occitan or mozarabic. Really, it's pathetic.

I'm French and have been living in Valencia for 5 years now. What really surprises me regarding the controversy about the "Catalan Countries" is that nobody has criticized the absurdity of the Catalan arguments. We are all supposed to enjoy our basic rights but apparently, according to Catalan politicians, Valencians have no right whatsoever to choose how they can call their region or their own language. The only ones having this right are Catalans!!! Catalan and Valencian are unmistakenly extremely similar languages but tell that to Croatians or Slovakians!!! Using the same absurd arguments, Croatia should be part of the "Serb Countries", a term in fact used only by the ultra-nationalist parties in Belgrade. Try also telling a Croatian that his language is in fact Serb not Croatian!!! The same arguments hold also true for Slovakia and the Czech Republic. Both these cases are very similar to the Valencian/Catalan case. Using the same arguments, Australia, New Zealand and the US (among others) also belong to the "English Countries" since they speak the same language!!! I have no scientific data to corroborate my claim, but I doubt whether any Valencian considers himself/herself Catalan, except of course an extremely small minority of pro-Catalan leftists. Obviously, and this is the bottom line, the origin of all these science-fiction theories about the existence of the "Catalan Countries" is purely economic. A rich and prospering Valencian Community is a thorn to the visions of "grandeur" and dominance by the Catalan political establishment!!! Don't look further than the recent ridiculous travails of the Endesa buyout. A Spanish company 's buyout by a Catalan group is viewed as healthy economic activity while the buyout of the same group by a German group is mean and evil!!