Wikipedia

Talk:Twitter Files/Archive 5

< Talk:Twitter Files
Latest comment: 1 year ago by Soibangla in topic Is Wikipedia characterizing the nature of the "Twitter Files" story correctly?
Archive 1←Archive 3Archive 4Archive 5Archive 6Archive 7→Archive 9

Mainstream media response

Latest comment: 1 year ago5 comments5 people in discussion

As detailed here, most of the mainstream media in the US has been downplaying or ignoring the FBI and other government participation in the Twitter censorship while focusing on the recent feud between Musk and journalists linking to the flight-tracking website. Probably should add this to the section on media reaction. 108.18.156.124 (talk) 14:38, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

it hasn't even been 24 hours. unlike Fox, MSM is not Taibbi's stenographer soibangla (talk) 16:37, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
Seconded with soiblanga; we should wait for the thread to digest and sources other than Fox or the sea of niche conservative sites that seem to copy off each other's articles to arise. Moreover, commentary about the MSM not reporting as much on the files already exists under the "Reactions" section, SomeNeatGiraffes (talk) 17:07, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
In light of Sharyl Attkisson's long list of news (sic) media failures during the Trump years, there's hardly widespread agreement on which media sources should be considered RS. Just one glaring example: on 8/15/2017, a New York Times headline said, "Trump Gives White Supremacists an Unequivocal Boost," the very day he said that "the neo-Nazis and white nationalists ... should be condemned totally" (while clearly-enough referring to a different group - people with opinions about removing confederate monuments - as "very fine people"). To this date, the NYT has not corrected this widely-debunked smear/lie. How reliable is the NYT (when it comes to political coverage)?
And is Bret Baier not considered a RS by virtue of appearing on Fox News?
Chris R. Cathcart 107.77.230.218 (talk) 18:16, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
Wrong page. Discussions like this go on WP:RSN. (With my apologies to RSN) O3000, Ret. (talk) 18:21, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

FBI's 80 Agents and Twitter

Latest comment: 1 year ago27 comments9 people in discussion

I have tried to add a section on the 6th installment of the Twitter Files about the team of 80 FBI agents working with Twitter. The section was deleted on sourcing. My source is TK News by Matt Taibbi the substack article where the Twitter Thread is reproduced. Here is what I added:

The sixth installment was released on Twitter on December 16, 2022.The thread was reproduced on TK News with Matt Taibbi on December 17, 2022. This thread reported on the team of 80 FBI agents assigned to work with Twitter employees on cancellations of accounts. 1. Footnote: Taibbi, Matt. December 17, 2022. Twitter Files: The "Twitter, the FBI Subsidiary" Thread TK News by Matt Taibbi

What can be done to include this information? Kmccook (talk) 19:08, 17 December 2022‎ (UTC)

Just do as we always do...only use independent secondary RSes. Taibbi's Substack is only usable for info about himself and his POV in his own bio. Only other sources can establish the content has due weight for mention here. I have no doubt it does, so use the RSes that document this event, its content, and their views on it.
Please sign your post. Did it for you. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 19:26, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
But the sources Wikipedia accepts are all singing the same tune, so it seems to me that going to the actual thread at Taibbi's TK News would provide the information. These rules box in anything but approved reporting from sources that are unhappy with the Twitter files. I know the rules you cite. I don't want to use an unapproved source, but the approved sources have a chorus they are singing in and won't accept discordance with the script they all follow. sorry I did not sign. Here you go.Kmccook (talk) 19:52, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
Unfortunately, the answer is it's sucks and deal with it. The community has deemed most mainstream media reliable and most far right/left media unreliable. Contrarian sources may arise in due time that don't parrot, but Wikipedia is not the news and has no deadline. We can wait for the situation to develop. Slywriter (talk) 20:00, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
Yes sir. Order received.Kmccook (talk) 20:07, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
The acceptability of a source has nothing to do with its political POV or bias (unless its bias is so extreme it causes violations of normal journalistic practice leading to unfactual and false reporting). Good sources follow normal journalistic practices like editorial oversight and fact-checking. The stability of a source is also a factor. There are many other factors (see WP:RS). If you want to use sources that other editors do not accept, you are welcome to appeal to WP:RSN and get wider community input. Then the judgment on the source might end up listed at WP:RSP (which is not a complete list). Other than a particular source, the issue of using WP:Primary and WP:Self-published sources has nothing to do with political POV. It is the way we prevent WP:OR and WP:SYNTH violations.
You have noted that acceptable sources "are all singing the same tune." Well, in controversial situations, one side is usually more factual than the other, and one would expect that good sources would point that out, IOW they take the side of the side of those speaking the truth. Most normal people and sources do that. If they don't, we do not consider them RS.
So it's a good thing that RS are all singing the same tune in such situations. We do not present both sides as if they are equally reliable or factual. They CANNOT be. That would be a false balance/bothsiderism, both of which violate good journalism and ethics. We do not allow that here. When someone makes a false statement, we do not allow it to stand alone and deceive readers. (If you find such a situation, correct it.) We know it's false because RS say so, so we include words like false/untrue/baseless AND the RS which describes the false statement in that way. That's why Wikipedia content is controversial and factual. The offended side will always complain, so when liars (and those who believe the lies) complain, we must be doing something right.   -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 20:20, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
I have read the files and think everyone should who is interested in this topic. That is why I cited the files rather than a secondary source. As you make clear, the Wikipedia rules forbid this. There shouldn't be a side. I was linking to the printed-out thread at TK News by Matt Taibbi Notes on FBI/Twitter Story: Link to Text Version of Twitter Files Thread Kmccook (talk) 20:32, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
Kmccook (talk) 20:32, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
Some may recall a decade ago when Fox News became The Benghazi Channel, featuring a ceaseless parade of Republican members of Congress and pundits for two years of wall-to-wall coverage of the greatest scandal of our time, while patting themselves on the back for being the only outlet covering it while the MSM was ignoring it to cover up for Obama and HRC, but five Republican-controlled House committees investigated and found no scandal, but because Fox News told viewers it was the greatest scandal of our time, a sixth Select Benghazi Committee was demanded and it found...nothing. Which is what the MSM knew from the start, so that's why they ignored it after the initial independent commission report came out. And Kevin McCarthy admitted the Select Committee was created to drive down HRC's poll ratings going into the 2016 campaign.[1] This is instructive as to why we need to be very careful with our sourcing here. soibangla (talk) 21:27, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
Kmccook, I agree that interested people should read the actual files, and that's why we do provide links to them in the infobox. The External links section is a place we often do this, as long as the primary source does not violate WP:ELNO.
You boldly declare that you "cited the files rather than a secondary source" even though you know "Wikipedia rules forbid this." Don't deliberately violate our policies and guidelines. That's tendentious editing. Don't even "not like" those policies. Bring your thinking into line with them and like them.
You are right that "There shouldn't be a side" when it comes to Wikipedia. We don't take sides when there is a disagreement between various RS, but we do take the side of RS when they disagree with unreliable sources. That is firmly based on policy. We are a reality-based and factually-based mainstream encyclopedia. We are not Conservapedia or some type of Fringeopedia. This is where editors who listen to unreliable sources get into trouble.
RS have more due weight, so a properly-written article will clearly show that what RS say is more believeable than those sources that/who are unreliable, and that will be evident from the words of RS themselves, not from any OR input from editors. (That really upsets partisan visitors/editors. They don't like it when we document that RS say "false" or "without basis.") Sources, not editors, are taking sides. We just stay neutral and let RS speak more loudly, per due weight. We do not try to create a false balance, as that would be an NPOV violation. ("Neutral" does not mean both sides are presented as equal.) This means we do document the disagreement between the primary source people/tweets and the reliable sources that point out the logical flaws and evidentiary lacks for some of the charges made by Musk, his group, and their allied right-wing political actors. I have written an essay about how to neutrally present what biased sources say: NPOV means neutral editing, not neutral content. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:34, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
Hello @Kmccook and Valjean: and all contributors :) I found those three better sources below in bold. Which published articles about the author, Taibbi, who wrote that 80 FBI agents are working with Twitter.
Three sources:
1. Yahoo! News: "Comer Calls for FBI to Be ‘Dismantled’ following Latest ‘Twitter Files’ Revelations"
2. MSN: "FBI 'told Twitter to take action over jokes it flagged as misinformation'"
3. The Jewish Voice: "Twitter Files: FBI Kept Busy Censoring Conservatives Instead of Chasing Crooks"
Francewhoa (talk) 02:46, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
No dice. The second one is the Daily Mirror, the first is National Review, and the third is Breitbart. Andre🚐 03:57, 27 December 2022 (UTC) [corrected Andre🚐 04:03, 27 December 2022 (UTC)]

Kmccook, here are are some policy considerations:

  • As noted above, Fox and JTN are not to be used for this type of subject. (JTN was started by John Solomon (political commentator), so we're dealing with a very biased political agenda website like Newsmax, The Daily Caller, or Breitbart. They are simply a very poor source.)
  • Tweets are not RS. They are self-published primary sources. (To make things even worse, in this case, the whole project is fraught with selection bias created by the involvement of very politically biased people like Musk and the three people he has selected to present the project. They have no interest in telling the whole story or being fair.)
  • Only secondary RS can be used as they indicate which of the used tweets have due weight for mention. (We are not documenting every tweet they use. Independent RS make the choice for us.)
  • Tweets are self-published primary sources that cannot be used "alone" as a source, only as presented/quoted by a RS, and then using the RS as the reference.
  • Taibbi's Substack is a self-published primary source, so it is only usable for info about himself and his POV in his own bio. (That's based on BLP and PRIMARY.) Only other sources can establish the content has due weight for mention here. Use RSes that document the event, its content, and their views on it.
  • To avoid OR and SYNTH violations, the RS should also be discussing the tweets in the context of the Twitter Files.

There are probably more considerations (like BLP), but that's all for now. Carry on. Valjean (talk) (PING me) 19:40, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

  • The issue of how to apply Wikipedia's sourcing guidelines to independently published media like Substacks is certainly a thorny one, and one that I expect is only going to become more important as the months and years progress. However, I don't think we are quite prepared to rip up WP:RS, at least not here and now over this specific thing. Perhaps (and, I think, almost certainly) the day will come when we have no choice, and then we will have to reconsider a lot of things we thought we knew. But until then, I think we have to make do with what we have (and it is worth mentioning that what we have isn't that bad in the larger scheme of things). jp×g 04:37, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Related new information from today December 19th, 2022. According to Twitter Files installment #7 "As of 2020, there were so many former FBI employees — "Bu alumni" — working at Twitter that they had created their own private Slack channel and a crib sheet to onboard new FBI arrivals."

Sources:

The author, Spencer Brown, is the managing editor for Townhall. Would this qualify as a news or an opinion?
As you know, the NYP is central to the Twitter Files. As they first published the news about the Hunter Biden laptop. Which, according to many, turned out to be 100% fact based news and not an hack-and-dump. So in the case of the Twitter File, it might be appropriate to use the NYP. The author, Jesse O’Neill is "an experienced journalist who covers metro, national and international stories for The Post across an array of subjects including breaking news, public affairs and pop culture."
  • To faciliate discussion on this Talk page, here are archived direct links:

Francewhoa (talk) 03:01, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Need a reliable source that is not the original tweet. Slywriter (talk) 03:15, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
or a copy of the original tweet. Need a reliable secondary source discussing the tweet. Nothing above is usable by editors as it would be original research. Slywriter (talk) 03:35, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for your contribution @Slywriter: :) Done I added those 5 sources to my comment above. Any volunteer to find better source(s)?
Francewhoa (talk) 04:54, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
FoxNews and NYPost would need strong consensus to include as they are not highly regarded sources for American politics. Townhall seems to lack any policies on there website that would help establish them as a reliable source and that looks like an opinion piece not a column anyway. The non-reliable are obviously useless and no idea why bother to include them as they do not help. Slywriter (talk) 05:16, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
Why treat "Fox News" like some monolith. Obviously content coming from Bret Baier is more reliable and newsworthy than the evening opinion lineup. 107.77.230.218 (talk) 17:57, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
Francewhoa, if we had asked you for a list of sources universally considered unreliable (especially at Wikipedia), you couldn't have provided a better (short) list. I'm surprised you'd do that. Please find mainstream RS, not conspiracy and propaganda websites. We can't use any of them, and shouldn't even be reading them. Only experienced researchers who know the issues and can immediately recognize misinformation (because they have already studied what all RS have said) should look at them for strictly research purposes ("What are the misinfo/disinfo liars saying today?"). -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 19:37, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for your reply @Valjean: :) About Taibbi's statement that 80 FBI agents are working with Twitter. Are you interested to suggest any notable and reliable source(s)? Francewhoa (talk) 01:34, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
Hi Francewhoa. I have a list at a little-known essay here. (It hasn't been updated in a long time.) -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 02:23, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for your essay @Valjean: :). Interesting read. I bookmarked it. Francewhoa (talk) 02:45, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
  • There are a rather large number of seriously poor sources quoted here. It looks like the use of these poor sources are because good sources don’t say what some folks would like. But, that’s exactly why we use good sources. That is, sources we have found to be reliable as opposed to saying what we personally desire. I have not read the files and won’t because I don’t perform original research. Besides, the person releasing them has a very heavy bias super-hyping what he has released and I don’t know what might be missing. The entire Hunter Biden laptop release seems quite absurd. It appears that Twitter originally blocked tweets that it believed violated its rules and after further consideration quickly reversed the decision. This is going to happen as there are edge cases in forum rules, particularly in cases of possible slander. We have such debates on WP:BLP articles. Spinning this into some sort of deep state conspiracy without evidence, as have some poor sources, is nutso. (Frankly, I think the entire Hunter Biden laptop obsession is ridiculous. AFAIK, the guy has never had or sought any elected position. And Fox is calling it Watergate 2.0.) This discussion would be more fruitful if the posting of bad sources ceased as it disrupts the conversation . O3000, Ret. (talk) 20:41, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
These are all unreliable in this context. Andre🚐 04:01, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

some might find this interesting

Latest comment: 1 year ago13 comments5 people in discussion
NOTFORUM
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

http://en.m.wiki.x.io/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Soibangla

soibangla (talk) 23:44, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

Interesting indeed... Trueitagain (talk) 04:15, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
This is the same type of wordy, conspiratorial thinking that the filer has displayed on this page. Looks like the idea of "freedom of speech" is to try to get another editor blocked. O3000, Ret. (talk) 12:45, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
Could you please refrain from accusing everyone of "conspiratorial thinking"? It serves no purpose other than to inflame discussion. Groups of people regularly conspire implicitly and explicitly, I'm not sure why you think this is some valid dismissal of any argument. In fact the twitter files in question are evidence of a conspiracy. Trueitagain (talk) 19:30, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
Isn't irony ironic? O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:39, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
WABE has been blocked as a sock. Slywriter (talk) 17:00, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
I knew there was something weird about them, that self-serving username made them seem like a troll; I also noticed that after you warned WABE on his talk page, he cleared the page with the reason "Nonsense". And I can see how, given soibangl's strong opinions on the Twitter Files and the frequent ideological clashing with Greg L, that they can get mixed up in this. — SomeNeatGiraffes (talk) 17:07, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
There was no reason whatever for an SPI filing against soibangla and the CU said there wasn't even sufficient grounds for a check on them. O3000, Ret. (talk) 17:47, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
And I agree; I was trying to say that I could see how an SPI could arise, not that an investigation was warranted, but I can see how my wording made it come off that way. Mayhaps I am taking WP:NPOV too far. — SomeNeatGiraffes (talk) 18:11, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
for the record, I chose to disengage from the accusing editor some two weeks ago for reasons that may be discussed in another venue at some future date. I reject the characterization that I argue opinions from an ideological standpoint. soibangla (talk) 17:52, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
Oh, my apologies. When I said "ideological clashes" I was trying to illustrate that radically different viewpoints you two have on the Twitter Files. — SomeNeatGiraffes (talk) 18:15, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
Your talk page brags about being mentioned in the news for setting narratives on multiple high visibility articles. Are you saying that only your edits are ideologically driven, but not your arguments? Trueitagain (talk) 19:32, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
some guy on twitter is "the news?" well ok then. oh, and here's another some guy now speculating whether I'm a deep state or Chinese operative.[2] Incidentally, what do you suppose my accuser was suggesting when they (incorrectly) asserted "my" IP geolocated to the DC suburbs, which they "had suspected early on?" Anyway, I'm having more fun than one person should be allowed to have, so I'll hat this as, ahem, WP:NOTFORUM soibangla (talk) 22:06, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

NPOV Policy

Latest comment: 1 year ago10 comments4 people in discussion

Excuse me, but there is nothing remotely resembling an expert consensus on the significance of the Twitter Files dumps, particularly considering that the matter is still unfolding. Therefore, presenting the opinion that "Elon Musk's build-up prior to the release was disproportionate with the overall lower level of significance of the revelations" as fact is pure editorialization and in conflict with Npov policy which reads "...representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias". This line should be removed. Trueitagain (talk) 04:15, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

WP:BLUDGEON O3000, Ret. (talk) 04:18, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
I did not reference NPOV policy in my original argument. This issue hasn't actually been discussed. It has yet to be demonstrated that this is not an opinion, therefore is a violation of NPOV. Do you have an actual argument? At least two other editors agreed with my edit. Trueitagain (talk) 04:36, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
Not only is that paraphrasing of a RS accurate in itself, it is echoed by others under Reactions. Seb Gorka was underwhelmed. soibangla (talk) 04:21, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
And then the next three sentences go on to describe multiple parties who believe the contents of the files are significant. Including government officials. CNN does not have the authority to dictate that this is insignificant. The low importance categorization of this page is also out of line when elected representatives are alleging first amendment abuse. I'd like to remind you that this is a developing story. Trueitagain (talk) 04:45, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. You should make this change. jrn-hsv 04:23, 26 December 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jason.r.newell (talk • contribs)

Subjective reactions are completely subjective, especially as a function of mainstream media. Of course they're going to downplay it. One person's opinion should not dictate the inclusion of this obviously-not-neutral statement jrn-hsv 04:24, 26 December 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jason.r.newell (talk • contribs)

Subjective reactions are especially not as a function of mainstream media, which are large organizations with armies of editors to scrutinize everything before it is published, which is not the same as with, say, Matt Taibbi.
Twitter's own data appears to show that the story fell flat. But I can guess the motivations of some who might want it to appear like a viral sensation that's sweeping the nation.[3] soibangla (talk) 04:42, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
If your source is your self-admittedly questionable link, then this is starting to sound like Wikipedia:No original research Trueitagain (talk) 04:47, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
"self-admittedly questionable" is inaccurate soibangla (talk) 04:53, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
"Just an aside: I cannot vouch for this site" Trueitagain (talk) 19:40, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Wow, you're serious, aren't you? Subjective means it's not quantifiable. Quantifiable = "objective". See Brown-Gibson for reference on this topic. Mainstream media is in the business of attempting to quantify something especially subjective such as a person's reaction to stimuli. They're not especially good at it because they're not clinical psychologists who make a living doing this (plus they're not good at math or statistics). Anyway, I think you agree one person's reaction is not necessarily quantifiable to, nor effectively measured against another person's, hence the need for that statement to not be there. Thank you:) jrn-hsv 04:50, 26 December 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jason.r.newell (talk • contribs)

(Edit conflict) Personally, I think we could add some kind of attribution such as "Many commentators claimed..." to that sentence to address the concern here and also to make the sentence read better (it reads a bit oddly to me.) That said, I do think it's self-evidently true that Musk wildly overhyped the Twitter files. Many conservatives said this as well. Wise and Beautiful Editor (talk) 04:52, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Or perhaps state multiple takes? I've read both "underwhelming" and "concerning", especially regarding government meddling. jrn-hsv 04:57, 26 December 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jason.r.newell (talk • contribs)

presented vs. released

Latest comment: 1 year ago5 comments2 people in discussion

Flibbertigibbets, the contents were presented with commentary in the Twitter equivalent of a PowerPoint slide show. A presentation. "Released" sounds like a mere dump doc, to me anyway. soibangla (talk) 15:18, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the note in talk.. I very much appreciate it. (it may be just a difference in semantics - see links below)
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/elon-musk-promotes-release-internal-twitter-documents-rehashing-platfo-rcna59897
https://www.themainewire.com/2022/12/twitter-files-musk-releases-internal-documents-on-censorship-of-ny-posts-hunter-scoop/
I was looking at it strictly from "readability" "as a reader the first sentence was not clear or concise to me"
How the documents were released might be a good thing to place in the body.

Flibbertigibbets (talk) 15:27, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

I also removed "two ands" and replaced with a comma. There may not be anything grammatically wrong (against the rules) in placing "two ands" in a sentence but it detracts from readability and conciseness especially in a first sentence. The first sentence of a well written article would be "the concise conclusion" Flibbertigibbets (talk) 15:45, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
added "presented" in the second sentence of the lead.. (per concern and input above) Flibbertigibbets (talk) 15:51, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
content moderation might be the current term; but censoring, Censorship, might be an appropriate word to use as that is being alleged through the release. Flibbertigibbets (talk) 15:58, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

David Zweig

Latest comment: 1 year ago5 comments5 people in discussion

I have created a draft for David Zweig. Any help would be appreciated. Thriley (talk) 20:44, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

The link in the lead to David Zweig pointed to a general page on the Atlantic (with a David Zweig link being appropriate) - I see that he tweeted today on the subject of "The Twitter Files." Was he involved in the original release of the information?; which is what the lead currently suggests. Flibbertigibbets (talk) 21:38, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
Hi, when I saw David Zweig had released installment ten, I added a link to his website to identify him. This was reverted. There is no way to explain what he did because nothing can be cited from the sources that report that he did it. This is because they are not reliable sources as was noted in the edit summary when I had added a citation to a National Review article which was reverted: Mill, Ryan. (December 26, 2022). "Twitter Files: Platform Suppressed Valid Information from Medical Experts about Covid-19." National Review.Kmccook (talk) 22:31, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
Assuming RS haven't all tired of reporting on the accusations du jour in tweets, something will be reported. O3000, Ret. (talk) 22:39, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
There is more than mere accusations in these dumps, i.e. evidence. Trueitagain (talk) 02:16, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Musk's "goal" with release

Latest comment: 1 year ago2 comments2 people in discussion

The lead currently states:

"The goal of presenting the documents to the public was to criticize the decisions of Musk's predecessors, scrutinize past content moderation at the company, and to expose alleged bias and government influence in content moderation."

I believe that is the "effect", but what do we know of Musk's goal/motives? We can partially answer that question, because the "Background" section provides this:

On November 28, Musk tweeted "The Twitter Files on free speech suppression soon to be published on Twitter itself. The public deserves to know what really happened..."[1]

He assumed that "free speech suppression" had occurred, and he intended to expose it. Now we need to mention that at the very beginning of the lead. Let's start brainstorming. Here's my initial suggestion:

"Musk's motivation is revealed in a November 28, 2022, tweet: "The Twitter Files on free speech suppression soon to be published on Twitter itself. The public deserves to know what really happened..."[1]

Now how can that be combined (or should it?) with "to criticize the decisions of Musk's predecessors, scrutinize past content moderation at the company, and to expose alleged bias and government influence in content moderation."?

Please help to develop this. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:52, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Agree that this isn't a goal. I attempted to address this earlier and was told I was giving it a right-wing slant, which is laughable. The goal is pretty well cited in EM's tweets, and it wasn't to critique, but to illuminate the evolving standard operating procedures of twitter and other social media platforms as they have been increasingly influenced by gov't agencies jrn-hsv 19:53, 26 December 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jason.r.newell (talk • contribs)

Well, that's certainly a right-wing slant. And please WP:SIGN. O3000, Ret. (talk) 20:03, 26 December 2022 (UTC)


References

  1. ^ a b Musk, Elon [@elonmusk] (November 28, 2022). "The Twitter Files on free speech suppression soon to be published on Twitter itself. The public deserves to know what really happened ..." (Tweet) – via Twitter.

COVID

Latest comment: 1 year ago37 comments10 people in discussion
closing this long thread as it led nowhere and its originator has been blocked
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

The latest installment has dropped and numerous sources are reporting that twitter censored various information about COVID, including valid information from medical experts, at the behest of the White House. This warrants a new section. Unfortunately I cannot make the edits myself because this page is suddenly semi-protected (convenient!)...Do any of these sources have an acceptable ideological slant? https://news.yahoo.com/twitter-files-platform-suppressed-valid-200142382.html https://nypost.com/2022/12/26/biden-admin-pushed-to-ban-twitter-users-for-covid-disinformation/ https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/twitter-files-white-house-pushed-twitter-to-censor-covid-19-misinformation/ar-AA15GtDv https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/twitter-files-expose-government-influence-on-suppressing-covid-messages-that-contradicted-wh/ar-AA15GgyJ https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/twitter-files-expose-government-influence-suppressing-covid-messages-contradicted-wh Trueitagain (talk) 23:00, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

"numerous sources" that all weak soibangla (talk) 23:07, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
Fox Business is not reliable for politics and NYPost is not RS at all. MSN and Yahoo are news aggregators. These are actually stories by Fox Business, National Review, and The Washington Examiner. None of these are RS. The page protection saved you some effort. And, I suggest you strike your comment: "Do any of these sources have an acceptable ideological slant?" O3000, Ret. (talk) 23:10, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
Per WP:RSPS:
  • National Review (syndicated through Yahoo! News) - "There is no consensus on the reliability of National Review. Most editors consider National Review a partisan source whose statements should be attributed."
  • Fox News (politics and science) - "For politics and science, there is consensus that the reliability of Fox News is unclear and that additional considerations apply to its use. As a result, Fox News is considered marginally reliable and generally does not qualify as a 'high-quality source' for the purpose of substantiating exceptional claims in these topic areas...Editors perceive Fox News to be biased or opinionated for politics"
  • Washington Examiner (syndicated through MSN) - "There is no consensus on the reliability of the Washington Examiner, but there is consensus that it should not be used to substantiate exceptional claims. Almost all editors consider the Washington Examiner a partisan source and believe that statements from this publication should be attributed."
Again, you should look for sources that are considered reliable by Wikipedia, not sources that align with your personal views. WP:RSPS exists to make this easier; I implore you to put your own views aside and look at that page to see which sources are acceptable. Wikipedia is not meant to push a certain "ideological slant".
— SomeNeatGiraffes (talk) 23:16, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
"No consensus on the reliability of National Review" means that there are editors who are in favor of it's reliability. "Most editors" is a weasel worded phrase. Considering that left wing sources are not (yet?) reporting on this, that makes it a valid source. Or are we playing the "if cnn didn't report on it, it doesn't exist" game? Similar for the Washington Examiner. "No consensus" does not mean unreliable. We can include it. As for Fox News, "additional considerations" apply, and in this case once again left leaning sources are not reporting on this. It is valid to include. This has nothing to do with my personal views and everything to do with accurately reporting on the content and scale of these dumps - I'd remind you that we can all see the source material and how it is misrepresented by sources, reliable or otherwise. My political slant is not the issue with this article.
These are valid sources. They should be included. To insist otherwise is partisan. Trueitagain (talk) 23:27, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
CNN didn't just incorrectly report Pence filed to run for POTUS today, but WashExam did. just sayin' soibangla (talk) 23:33, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
I'm sorry, no. "No consensus on reliability" or "marginally reliable, some considerations apply" means they can only be used in uncontroversial, clear and simple circumstances. They are considered unreliable for politics and can be attributed but they could not be used in this situation. These are all right-wing biased sources as well as in many cases, frequent publishers of false or misleading information. The consideration is designed to exactly prevent them from being usable in this situation. So no, Washington Examiner, National Review, and Fox News, will not be used like they were generally reliable or mostly reliable. Andre🚐 23:36, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
"uncontroversial, clear and simple circumstances" Ah, right, only in situations where there is no room for them to disagree with the left leaning slant of "reliable sources", like the only sources editorializing that these dumps are of low significance. No dissent allowed. Trueitagain (talk) 23:39, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
WP:LEADNOTFOLLOW Andre🚐 23:42, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
"This is because we only report what is verifiable using secondary reliable sources" the twitter files are RIGHT THERE for you to see that these so called "unreliable" sources are not misrepresenting the content. Trueitagain (talk) 23:46, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
It don't matter bro, read the links and stop Andre🚐 23:56, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
I'm quoting an excerpt from the link. Did you read the link? Trueitagain (talk) 23:59, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
we only report what is verifiable using secondary reliable sources Your twitter files are not an exception to this whatsoever! WP:DROPTHESTICK Andre🚐 00:00, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
Reliable sources don’t just take the writings of someone else’s accusations without performing their own due diligence. That’s why they are reliable. And your constant claims that along the lines of: “Or are we playing the ‘if cnn didn't report on it, it doesn't exist’ game” have grown tiresome. You have been given a great deal of leeway because you are new. But, the rope is running out. O3000, Ret. (talk) 23:38, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
Can we stop pretending that "reliable" isn't a thinly veiled pretext for excluding right leaning viewpoints? Isn't it odd that the "reliable" sources invariably have a minimizing tone on the subject, while "unreliable" sources imply far greater significance? Yet we're writing this article as though there is a consensus that this is a nothingburger. I guess that's the point. I don't think threatening other is civil behavior, by the way. There is a clear, heavy bias in this article and the editors who happen to be in control are ganging up to insist otherwise and stonewall neutral reporting, partly by excluding right leaning sources. Trueitagain (talk) 23:44, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
Regarding my consistent claims, we now have a dozen and counting sources which are reporting on the same files that we can all see ourselves. Yet you are insisting that, despite the fact that we know these files exist, despite the fact that we know that these secondary sources are accurately reporting on content that we would source from them, we cannot include mention of the latest dump until the narrative has been laundered by CNN. There is no other explanation. Unreliability does not hold water here as an excuse when we can clearly see that the sources are accurately reporting on the dumps, and "reliable" sources are still silent. Trueitagain (talk) 23:50, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
The due diligence of reliable sources depends on the reliable sources deciding to cover a story. If the reliable sources have decided to ignore a story, then there is nothing to cite. The 10th installment of The Twitter merits a new section but even that gets deleted. Would the author's summary of Twitter Files 10 be a possible reference? Zweig, David. December 26, 2022. How Twitter Rigged the Covid Debate The Free Press.Kmccook (talk) 23:53, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
Just wait for reliable sources to cover it. If they never do, it will never be in Wikipedia. WP:SELFPUBLISHED sites are only available for information about the self and the circumstances described there (an expert who is reliably published). So, no, not in this case. Just be patient. Andre🚐 23:55, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
So if CNN doesn't report on it, it doesn't exist. In spite of the fact that we know it exists, we can see it fully ourselves existing in real time. Right leaning sources don't count. Better for the proles to just not hear about it. This is wikipedia's policy? Trueitagain (talk) 23:58, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
There are a lot of other sources besides CNN that are reliable. Look for the green boxes on WP:RSP. The Wall Street Journal could report it. Andre🚐 23:59, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
And yet they are all silent on this topic and almost all left leaning. I'm obviously not referring exclusively to CNN. Trueitagain (talk) 00:02, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
The WSJ is left-leaning? Nice one! I'll tell Rupert Andre🚐 00:04, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
Fox News: "Benghazi is the biggest scandal in history!"
MSM: um...nope
how'd that turn out? soibangla (talk) 00:13, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
I've just done a quick search to see if there were any RS, but aside from the WP:MREL sources already discussed, I cannot find any RS discussing this drop.
If reliable sources don't cover this, then per policy we won't either. That said, it's Boxing Day/St. Stephen's Day and I wouldn't be surprised if many publications are operating on a skeleton crew right now, and only really covering urgent/breaking current event news which the Twitter Files most decidedly are not. This may change tomorrow or over the next few days, but right now I don't think there's much if anything we can write about. Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:10, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
National Review does not have an assessment at RSP that would preclude it's inclusion. Being a partisan source is not a reason for exclusion as WP:BIAS makes clear. So if there is a claim here that National Review is an unreliable source that should be taken up at WP:RSN rathee than exclusion by a local consensus that it as odds with the communities assessment. Slywriter (talk) 00:05, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
National Review has to be attributed as opinionated, which was stated previously. There is no consensus on the reliability of National Review. Most editors consider National Review a partisan source whose statements should be attributed. The publication's opinion pieces should be handled with the appropriate guideline. Take care to ensure that content from the National Review constitutes due weight in the article and conforms to the biographies of living persons policy. So it should be excluded here as this is a controversial topic. Andre🚐 00:07, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
You understand none of the words you are claiming are actually there?? That statement does not say National Review must be excluded. It does not say National Review can not be used for exceptional claims and it surely doesn't say National Review can't be used for routine facts. Attribution is not exclusion. Slywriter (talk) 00:39, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
WP:MREL a partisan, attributed WP:RSOPINION can't be used for controversial facts. You should also read Wikipedia:No_original_research#Primary,_secondary_and_tertiary_sources. Also, there's a consensus of editors here that it would be unreliable in this circumstance. That's how the consensus-considerations situation applies. It's quite clear and settled. Andre🚐 00:44, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
the existence of the files is controversial? The actual content is controversial? That's a stretch by a mile of what controversial and extraordinary mean. National Review confirms their existence and contents. The attempt to dismiss the source for reporting facts goes far beyond what is states at RSP. So no it's not clear and settled because there is no rational reason being provided for excluding National Review for purposes of confirmimg existence and content of the tweets. Slywriter (talk) 00:55, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
Oh come on, "Platform Suppressed Valid Information from Medical Experts about Covid-19," is not controversial? Give me a break! Andre🚐 01:00, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
I said nothing about their claims, which aren't completely false. Unless you are denying there were runs on the supermarket or that a scientist saying maybe everyone shouldn't get an experimental vaccine rose to the level of danger to society that government should reach out to a company and have that speech silenced or a person getting out of the hospital has no right to be optimistic. Setting aside all that inconvenient information, they do prove existence of the files and they cover the content. Neither of those are contentious or in dispute nor should NR be used as the sole source for context.
If you want National Review wholesale excluded from Wikipedia then follow the process rather than enforcing a local consensus article by article that amounts to a ban even when they are accurately reporting what has occured. Slywriter (talk) 01:24, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
First of all, that's an uncharitable straw man: I never said National Review should be wholesale excluded, I said it is unusable in this circumstance and similar circumstances. Stop attacking claims that nobody is making to bolster your argument: it's unbecoming of an experienced user. There is no encyclopedic reason to "cover the content" of the Twitter files at all, it would be WP:UNDUE since WP:RS that are actually reliable, NOT ATTRIBUTED OPINIONATED PARTISAN SITES, aren't covering this at all yet. Policy has you beat about 20 different ways on this point.
Secondly, your argument is just plain silly. The claims being made are about controversial scientific, medical, and political claims. They are all very much in dispute. "The existence of the files" is not what's being added to the article. WP:RSBREAKING, WP:NOTNEWS, WP:RECENTISM, so slow your roll. Furthermore WP:MEDRS is going to cover some of these covid-related topics. Finally, a consensus of editors on this article clearly shows it not to be reliable for this purpose. Andre🚐 01:28, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
The claims being made are about what specifically is in the files. It is not medically, scientifically, or politically controversial to state the fact that the twitter files claim and show evidence of suppression of medical and academic professionals who dissented from the government's preferred consensus. This is rather black and white.
Please cease in your attempts to manufacture a consensus by referencing one that does not exist. There are clearly editors who disagree with your censorship of the only sources reporting on this. If you wish to make such an authoritative claim then let's take it to a vote. Trueitagain (talk) 02:11, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
How do you know the validity of what they say based on cherry-picked, internal conversations? How can you claim these are not in dispute? What is wrong with an encyclopedia waiting for reliable sources for extremely controversial claims? Haven't we had enough crap published over the last several years? These sources have claimed Dr. Fauci funded the creation of Covid. Musk himself called for Fauci to be prosecuted. Years of false election claims. Vaccines cause autism or kill you (yes, one of the sources mentioned on this page called for someone making this claim to be included). Someone this week tried to add Obama is a Muslim to his article. This is an encyclopedia. Act like it. O3000, Ret. (talk) 02:18, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
Indeed. We have WP:NODEADLINE. If reputable news organizations aren't bothering with the "Twitter Files" any longer, that's telling. If they get to it tomorrow or the day after, then we just have to wait for their analysis. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:27, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
It's been explained to you every which way but you're not getting it. Beware WP:BLUDGEON soibangla (talk) 02:25, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

User:Trueitagain has been blocked. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 19:14, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Jay Bhattacharya's block needs better context

Latest comment: 1 year ago9 comments4 people in discussion

Currently Bhattacharya's mention immediately precedes 'conservative radio host Dan Bongino, and conservative activist Charlie Kirk'. It provides a lack of context regarding his block and implies a tie to conservatism. Improvements are encouraged here. SmolBrane (talk) 18:21, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

  Done. I added that he is "an opponent of lockdowns and mask mandates." That's from his article. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:27, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
Opponent is a strong word(WP:BLPSTYLE:Do not label people with contentious labels, loaded language, or terms that lack precision, unless a person is commonly described that way in reliable sources. Instead use clear, direct language and let facts alone do the talking), this doesn't really correspond with the material cited from Gizmodo(who argued that Covid lockdowns would harm children). Although it is a start. I would suggest either adding the citation that states 'opponent' or simply summarizing the Gizmodo source with more consistency. SmolBrane (talk) 19:52, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
I have added two sources. We describe him as RS do. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 20:00, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
We describe him contentiously as one RS does. The CNN source contributes little to nothing here. But your attempt here is better than it was, so thanks(and the MOS:LABEL issue is better dealt with on the BLP of course). SmolBrane (talk) 06:22, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
"Opponent" is not a contentious term like those covered by MOS:LABEL... If the language was "anti-lockdown fanatic and masking extremist" we would have a LABEL issue, with the current language there is no issue. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:24, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
If 'controversial' is listed at MOS--which it is, I suspect 'opponent of' also constitutes. Sources could be more accurately summarized by avoiding this word given that only one source describes him as an opponent. This 'value-laden'(from MOS:LABEL) and poorly-sourced characterization does not add credibility to the encyclopedia, and it does not benefit our readers. SmolBrane (talk) 18:34, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
Looks like this guy and all those other GBD wahoos opposed a load of things. Kinda obvious (does anybody doubt it?) If you're personally not convinced here's something from the BMJ, about as prestigious a source as you could hope to find on this nonsense:

"in March 2021 Florida Governor Ron DeSantis hosted a video roundtable with Atlas, Gupta, Kulldorff, and Bhattacharya, where they expressed opposition to masks, testing and tracing, physical distancing, and mass vaccination."

[1]

References

  1. ^ Gorski D, Yamey G (13 September 2021). "COVID-19 and the new merchants of doubt". BMJ (Blog post). Archived from the original on 18 December 2021. Retrieved 18 December 2021.
Bon courage (talk) 18:54, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

While it is not evident here, the word "opponent" is based on the sizable and well-sourced Jay Bhattacharya#COVID-19 pandemic section, and we don't usually import all those references here. The word accurately sums up the view of RS, so it is perfectly proper to use it here. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 19:06, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Avoiding a run on sentence

Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I am providing an example, and I am not making a recommendation as to content. I am saying that if you have many things to say in a first sentence use more sentences to say the same thing. see Run-on sentence The paragraph needs to be structured, and concise, as to cover only main points relating to the topic.

The Twitter Files are a set of internal Twitter, Inc. documents such as screenshots, emails, and chat logs that were provided in December 2022 by CEO Elon Musk to journalists Matt Taibbi, Bari Weiss, Lee Fang, and authors Michael Shellenberger and David Zweig for them to present to the public. Musk had purchased Twitter for $44 billion earlier in the year, taking over as CEO on October 27. The goal of presenting the documents to the public was to criticize the decisions of Musk's predecessors, scrutinize past content moderation at the company, and to expose alleged bias and government influence in content moderation.

vs as an example not a recommendation

The Twitter Files are a set of internal Twitter, Inc. documents released by Elon Musk describing how tweets were censored and moderated prior to his purchase of the company. Musk presented this proprietary information to the public via a select group of writers including Matt Taibbi, Bari Weiss, Lee Fang, Michael Shellenberger, and David Zweig. The internal documents included screenshots, emails, and chat logs allowing the public insight into content moderation at the company. The Twitter Files were released to demonstrate that Twitter restricted content based on political bias and government influence.

Flibbertigibbets (talk) 15:13, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 December 2022

Latest comment: 1 year ago3 comments3 people in discussion

In “and to expose alleged bias and government influence in content moderation.”, “alleged” should be removed as there is clear and proven bias and government interference such as the government’s request to censor Hunter Biden’s Laptop under the grounds of “hacked material.” Bias in construction of Wikipedia articles should be removed as well as false information, which this constitutes. 2601:5C9:4201:7B80:8C26:F15F:71ED:8E93 (talk) 19:29, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

  Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:31, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
To this point only "the prosecution" has made extensive allegations, while "the defense" has patiently waited for its turn. soibangla (talk) 19:51, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Op-Eds vs journalist reaction section

Latest comment: 1 year ago31 comments7 people in discussion

1. Some of the sources really need to be reviewed as there is some cherry-picking. For example Intelligencer is cited as saying "saturated in hyperbole, marred by omissions of context, and discredited by instances of outright mendacity.

The actual quote is "these reports featured a couple genuinely concerning findings about pre-Musk Twitter’s operations. But they were also saturated in hyperbole, marred by omissions of context, and discredited by instances of outright mendacity.

Dropping the first part and the 'but' changes what they are saying to a totally negative take.

2. WSJ and NYT not usable because they label "Op-ED" but isn't much of the journalist reactions opinion? At least those sourced directly as opposed to sourcing NYT for an MSNBC reaction, which would mean someone else has taken note of their opinion Slywriter (talk) 23:38, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

I fixed #1 with "a couple [of] genuinely concerning findings" soibangla (talk) 00:07, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
Dostoyevski had to submit every word he wrote in Russia to government censors before he could publish essays and novels. Yes, I think there is some cherry-picking in the way we are letting this article evolve. For reasons not very clearly defined to me, the acceptable sources are not covering the content of the Twitter Files. The importance of learning about these actions by our government has been diminished. Thus, the Twitter Files article appears not to have a NPOV because there is so little we are permitted to cite. Earlier today I tried to add a comment from a member of the WSJ editorial board and it was reverted because it was opinion. This was what I tried to add in the COVID section: "Writing an opinion piece in the Wall Street Journal, James Freeman commented that the Twitter Files demonstrated how the federal government leaned on the social media company to suppress "even well-informed messages from highly accomplished doctors who didn't toe the government line." [1] I have studied censorship after the printing press was invented and the governments and clergy immediately began to censor, license and prevent publication when printing presses spread. John Milton wrote in 1644 of the danger of this in the Areopagitica. It is ironic that unreliable sources like the National Review, Wall Street journal and Fox News are the only ones reporting on the Twitter Files and they can't be cited. I would much rather cite a reliable source, but they are ignoring the installments. I do not think this is a political issue, but a freedom of the press issue.Kmccook (talk) 04:52, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
No matter how much you WP:TEXTWALL and WP:SOAPBOX, you don't get a free slip to cite unreliable sources. I'm glad you are passionate about improving Wikipedia, but it really doesn't matter what you think the Twitter Files has to do with John Milton or censorship or politics, unless a reliable source is where you're pulling that stuff from. Have a great afternoon Andre🚐 05:11, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
And, if you don't understand the difference between an WP:RSOPINION from the WSJ editorial board and WSJ factual reporting, you shouldn't be editing this topic right now. Andre🚐 05:19, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
You have a great day, too!Kmccook (talk) 05:22, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
Reliable sources, like the New York Times, care deeply about government censorship and have spent reams of paper discussing it over the decades, They have commented on Musk’s banning links to other platforms[4], and suspending journalists that say things Musk doesn’t like[5][6], They reported on these as they are known to have occurred. But, the cherry-picked releases of internal documents with assumed motivations, uncorroborated claims of collusion, and one-sided presentation do not pass the due diligence required for a reliable source to claim censorship. Consider why the WSJ editorial and Fox went ahead and presumed the validity necessary to use these releases as evidence of government censorship before the dust has settled. O3000, Ret. (talk) 13:31, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
I defer to your Objectivity. Andrevan has also commanded me not to edit this topic. There is much clout on the side to find government intervention on social media business as usual. I see no difference between Tsarist censors, The Worshipful Company of Stationers and US Government agencies in pre-censoring content. Kmccook (talk) 14:35, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
The editorial pages of the NYT and WSJ are vastly different. The former factchecks op-eds; they fired their editorial page editor James Bennett, who was on the short list to become managing editor, because he didn't vet an op-ed by Tom Cotton, which contained factual errors. The NYT takes this stuff seriously. The WSJ? Not so much. They have a freedom of speech absolutism ethic, and they'll publish just about anything that's aligned with their editorial board's views without regard to veracity because, hey, it's an opinion piece, facts don't matter! "Opinion’s lack of fact-checking and transparency, and its apparent disregard for evidence, undermine our readers’ trust and our ability to gain credibility with sources."[7]
Are you suggesting that we are supporting something that amounts to Tsarist censorship? O3000, Ret. (talk) 15:21, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
No, not Wikipedia-- Twitter, with intervention and cancellation of accounts the government highlighted was functioning the same way as the Third Section.Kmccook (talk) 15:41, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
The Third Section secret police? Nothing remotely like that has been suggested, much less proved. You really should not be editing this article. O3000, Ret. (talk) 15:48, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
One of the responsibilities of The Third Section was identifying people that might write something against the Tsarist government. That is what the Twitter files have shown that our FBI was doing.Kmccook (talk) 17:13, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
Do you have any reliable sources that compare Twitter to Tsarist Russia, or are you just violating WP:NOTAFORUM? – Muboshgu (talk) 17:19, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
I have primary sources from Russian laws but the New York Times wasn't writing then, so nothing you would accept. I have been told this is not to be a soapbox or wall of text. So, I won't include studies that describe the censorship of Russian writers in the 1840s. There was no social media then, but there are parallels. Kmccook (talk) 17:32, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
So in other words, you are engaging in original research. Please stop, or take it to your own blog. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:35, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
The first version of this article, "Twitter Files Investigation," characterized this matter as a "political scandal." That hadn't been substantiated then and it still hasn't been as yet. soibangla (talk) 17:22, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
Should NYT still be considered a "reliable source" after it peddled the Russia Collusion Hoax for so many years? It seems like that decision requires a re-assessment given we now know that whole thing was a hoax. 68.84.5.111 (talk) 20:05, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
Yes it is still a reliable source, but if it were to be reassessed that would happen at WP:RSN and not here. Andre🚐 20:10, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
The NYT did not peddle a Russian collusion hoax. soibangla (talk) 21:26, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
Of course not, that goes without saying. Andre🚐 22:21, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

@Muboshgu et al. Apologies for the soapboxing. And thanks to Andrevan for the pointer to WP:RSOPINION. I see that says: Some sources may be considered reliable for statements as to their author's opinion, but not for statements asserted as fact. For example, an inline qualifier might say "[Author XYZ] says....". A prime example of this is opinion pieces in mainstream newspapers. When using them, it is best to clearly attribute the opinions in the text to the author and make it clear to the readers that they are reading an opinion. liuc, the text I offered Writing an opinion piece in the Wall Street Journal, James Freeman commented that the Twitter Files demonstrated how the federal government leaned on the social media company to suppress "even well-informed messages from highly accomplished doctors who didn't toe the government line." satisfies that requirement. Kmccook (talk) 19:15, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

In an Op-Ed, this might be acceptable to a known expert in the particular field, for example a Nobel Prize laureate. In an editorial, no. Also, in this particular case, the author has no expertise in a related field. His area is finance. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:40, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
I concur, this particular op-ed should be excluded as it adds only an uninformed opinion that runs contrary to the facts given by RS. And lends credence to WP:FRINGE theories. Andre🚐 20:11, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
I see WP:EDITORIAL says When taking information from opinion content, the identity of the author may help determine reliability. The opinions of specialists and recognized experts are more likely to be reliable and to reflect a significant viewpoint.[notes 3] If the statement is not authoritative, attribute the opinion to the author in the text of the article and do not represent it as fact. Reviews for books, movies, art, etc. can be opinion, summary, or scholarly pieces.[7][8] This does not indicate expertise is a criterion for inclusion; only that it be properly attributed. Kmccook (talk) 20:52, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
Indeed, but verifiability does not guarantee inclusion. If there's a consensus to exclude a given editorial it should be excluded. In this case, the opinion you want to add, the federal government leaned on the social media company to suppress "even well-informed messages from highly accomplished doctors who didn't toe the government line.", should really not be added at all since it runs contrary to the narratives from actually reliable sources and appears to be WP:UNDUE WP:FRINGE editorializing that should be given 0 weight. Andre🚐 20:57, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

1st Paragraph of Journalist section

Axios and Al Jazeera dooes not seem to support the paragraph. Axios is a who, what, why focused on alternative media angle and Al Jazeera seems to just be a summary of events. Also both were filed under Economics, not technology. Perhaps sources got mixed up or lost along the way?Slywriter (talk) 04:40, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

If the outlets are reliable, Axios has the following text Many tech journalists argued it didn’t reveal much beyond Twitter’s policy team grappling with a tough call that was soon reversed. which does seem to support the section well, contrary to your assertion. I don't see what Economics has to do with it. As far as the Al Jazeera article, it has a slightly different description: While media figures and politicians on the right cast the documents as confirmation of Twitter’s liberal bias and hostility to free speech, many on the left described it as a non-story that simply showed the platform’s good-faith efforts to grapple with difficult moderation decisions. Which is different enough from the sentence it's attached to, but I can see how that happened. Andre🚐 05:41, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
Thanks I did indeed miss that line in Axios. And the Economics vs tech section of paper is rendered irrelevant as the line is sourced to Axios, not an attempt to summarize the two sources as tech journalists who showed concern. Slywriter (talk) 18:25, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

The Atlantic

Source is written in first person and reads much like an opinion piece. Journalist doesn't have a Wikipedia article, though perhaps they are a subject matter expert? Slywriter (talk) 04:46, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

This plays to my earlier question, if we don't have an independent source quoting Charlie Warzel, is it due? Slywriter (talk) 04:47, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

I don't think Warzel is a subject matter expert, he is just a staff writer for the Atlantic who covers tech+media. He's no more or no less appropriate for a section called "Journalists" that reads "many technology journalists wrote that the reported evidence did not demonstrate much more than Twitter's policy team having a difficult time making a tough call, but resolving the matter swiftly," than the other journalists there. Since the Atlantic is generally reliable per RSP and since it's appropriately attributed, I think it is perfectly fine to keep it in. Andre🚐 05:37, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Is Wikipedia characterizing the nature of the "Twitter Files" story correctly?

Latest comment: 1 year ago10 comments5 people in discussion

It seems as if this story has grown from a simple story of independent journalism on a social media site to a larger historical event with many evolving implications culturally, politically, journalistically, and legally. How should Wikipedia treat something that's evolving so quickly? We now have 10+ tweet threads, based on source material, that *allege* that corporate media has not lived up to traditional journalistic standards and behaved in a corrupt fashion. Whether or not this proves to be the case, it seems that's Wikipedia's rule of only allowing materials from "reliable sources" is a fundamental flaw, or a circular reference error, when trying to edit a story all about corruption in the corporate media. In fact, corporate media *NOT* reporting this story seems to give it more credibility with each passing day. I'm not sure what the solution is here, but it would be ideal if Wikipedia has some sort of template or protocol for addressing these types of stories. It will be easier to generate and edit this story accurately once Congress holds formal hearings and forces the media (to include the international media) to report on this story more honestly. But until then, it seems like another solution is in order. 68.84.5.111 (talk) 20:03, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Nope. Wikipedia is WP:NOTNEWS. See WP:RSBREAKING WP:RECENTISM. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia summary source not a news blog for every right-wing crackpot theory. Andre🚐 20:13, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
"right-wing crackpot theory" - This is not civil engagement and assumes a characterization of the Twitter Files without citing evidence. Please adjust your language and tone. 68.84.5.111 (talk) 21:01, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
Now see that's where you're wrong... It wouldn't be civil to call a person a right-wing crackpot but there is no civility issue in calling a right-wing crackpot theory a right-wing crackpot theory. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:04, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
Indeed, I am characterizing a theory that has been floated in various media such as [8] “Is there a conspiracy theory about twitter that didn’t turn out to be true? So far they’ve all turned out to be true, and if not, then more true than people thought.” But, we use reliable sources contrary to IP's statement that Wikipedia's rule of only allowing materials from "reliable sources" is a fundamental flaw. that corporate media has not lived up to traditional journalistic standards and behaved in a corrupt fashion is an old-time right-wing theory that is all over unreliable sources. So we won't be regurgitating that here. We only regurgitate reliable sources. But maybe there's something good in ProPublica or The Intercept, those are not corporate media and are reliable. Andre🚐 22:26, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
Well, you are the one who claimed this was a "historical event with many evolving implications culturally, politically, journalistically, and legally." And that Congressional hearings will "force the media (to include the international media) to report on this story more honestly." And that "Wikipedia's rule of only allowing materials from "reliable sources" is a fundamental flaw". You are the one that "assumes a characterization of the Twitter Files without citing evidence." O3000, Ret. (talk) 21:11, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
Yep, that's classic original research and a bit of WP:RGW as well. Andre🚐 22:27, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
And WP:CRYSTALBALL. O3000, Ret. (talk) 22:43, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
Wikipedia has a wealth of experience and guidelines in handling such topics, many of which have been linked to on this page. The solution is to follow these guidelines, particularly the reliance on reliable sources. Some of your assumptions/preconceptions suggest that you are relying on poor sources. O3000, Ret. (talk) 20:14, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
But it's not based on source material, it's based on selected source material from a black box. I have to wonder if people who have no problem with that might have a problem if it was being done by, say, Obama or HRC, rather than a rich guy who liberated Twitter from the libs and retained independent journalists with no editorial supervision to do his bidding. soibangla (talk) 22:45, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Freeman, James (December 28, 2022) The Costs of a Closed Society. Wall Street Journal.
Retrieved from "https://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Talk:Twitter_Files/Archive_5&oldid=1183263503"