Talk:Tigray war/Archive 4

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

DMY dates and non-US English

Just because this article consistently uses non-US date formats says nothing about the flavour of English spelling it should use.

However, this article was started on 4 November 2020 and the first edit that introduced a varietal English spelling on that date used the non-US English flavour of fuelled (in US English, the verb fuel is inflected to fueled and fueling — with one l. In all other main varieties of English, it becomes fuelled and fuelling — with two l's.)

Since this article is not on a topic that has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation,
(the Commonwealth military occupation after they booted out the Italians was very ephemeral)
we should now consistently use the variety found in the first post-stub revision that introduced an identifiable variety.

Consequently, I shall now place the appropriate Varieties of English template on this page. -- BushelCandle 23:37, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

User:HOA101 would you explain why you think it a good idea to have TWO conflicting variety of English templates on this article ? -- BushelCandle 06:37, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Oh, I did that to show the varieties of English that has naturally developed in this article, which is a combination of Commonwealth English and American English in which dates are written in D-M-Y while most other things are written in the American variant. Or we can go the other way and either remove the the requirement for a specific variety of English which is not a big of a deal or switch it to Canadian English which is another compromise. HOA101 (talk) 14:36, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

That might seem reasonable to you and your fellow edit editwarriors in Toronto, but if you ever bother to click on the blue links to Wikipedia policies above that is not the way it's generally done. When no consistent English variety has been established (and this article has no strong links to a particular variety of English and, apart from the fact that there is a great interest in Horn of Africa articles in many variegated user named Wikipedia accounts in the greater Toronto area, I really can not see why we should choose the Canadian variety of English) policy states that not only should we use the flavour of English found in the first post-stub revision that introduced an identifiable variety, but we should also document that flavourby placing [ONE of the - not two!!!] appropriate Varieties of English template on this, the article's talk page. -- BushelCandle 08:34, April 2021 (UTC)

I wouldn't go with the first edit that introduced a single word in a specific variant. A fly-by edit could be what sets the MOS:ENGVAR. As for ties, Ethiopia uses English as the language of instruction and it seems that came from the British period. It's difficult to tell, but given the lack of influence of American English anywhere on the African continent, it's probably British English.

Not sure why Canadian English has been offered as a compromise when it's a non-sequitur in this context. And I say that both as a Canadian and a resident of the Greater Toronto Area! - Floydian ^τ _¢ 13:34, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

I can sympathise with your point about fleeting and ephemeral editors arbitrarily dictating the language flavour for years to come.

However my understanding is that is exactly what our current policy at MOS:ENGVAR dictates where there are not strong national ties to a particular flavour. Do you think I have misunderstood our current policy or are you merely opining that our policy should be changed?

If the latter, then what criteria do you suggest we use for distinguishing between "fly-by edit"s and the other varieties? -- BushelCandle 05:36, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

I tend to give more regard on the first paragraph of MOS:RETAIN personally, as well as the first half of the sentence you referenced earlier: "When an English variety's consistent usage has been established in an article, maintain it in the absence of consensus to the contrary. ... When no English variety has been established and discussion does not resolve the issue ..." (emphasis mine). I generally browse through the earliest significant edits and see what stuck and what didn't. That said, the date format of Month day, year was established by the initial edits of User:Cerberon-900 and numerous editors thereafter, then changed to DMY by a fly-by script edit.[1] Up until then, "fuelled" is the only source of English variation and had been there for several dozen edits. - Floydian ^τ _¢ 14:50, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Proposal for name changes

Change this page name to "War in Northern Ethiopia", because the war is now in North Ethiopia as a whole. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.177.188.140 (talk) 20:35, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Oppose No one calls it that Wowzers122 (talk) 01:08, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Support I think a better name would be the "Second Ethiopian Civil War" if we were to change the name of the article.--Garmin21 (talk) 03:33, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Oppose the war in border areas of adjacent regions is clearly related to the war in Tigray Rastakwere (talk) 05:48, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Oppose, no one calls it that. KZebegna (talk) 13:00, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Support To date, I have yet to see any sources calling the conflict the "Tigray War" as some here have claimed, though I have likewise not seen any evidence that the conflict ought to be referred to as the " War in northern Ethiopia". To the contrary, I have seen far more sources from non-biased English new outlets referring to the conflict as a civil war rather than a conflict in the north or the "Tigray War", and I have the receipts to prove it.

• New York Times – As Ethiopia’s Civil War Rages, Bodies Float Downriver Into Sudan
• The Economist – In Ethiopia’s civil war, Tigrayan forces take the offensive
• The Defense Post – Washington’s Balancing Act With Tigray; quote: "Tigrayan armed forces took federal military bases in the region in early November, initiating a civil war."

Remember that our goal here is to use terminology as it is found in media outlets with no serious political or ethnic ties to the region itself, as these sources are what most will know the conflict as internationally. The only outlets that I could think of referring to this war as the "Tigray War" are Tigrayan news outlets, and all of them have expressed varying degrees of support for the TPLF and use whatever terminology its members are using. I would thus suggest that a more neutral name such as the "Second Ethiopian Civil War" instead, as that is how this conflict is perceived internationally within the English-speaking media sources. Vivaporius (talk) 23:33, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

@Vivaporius: The only problem I would have with calling it the "Second Ethiopian Civil War" is what would that mean for all the other various conflicts in Ethiopia? Would they are grouped in with the larger Second Ethiopian Civil War conflict or will they stay seperated? And if they are seperated than why does this only count as the second ethiopian civil war? Wowzers122 (talk) 01:47, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

@Wowzers122: Personally, I would view those other conflicts as being of a more regional and ethnic nature that wouldn't necessarily classify them as being apart of a full-blown civil war. Take for example the fighting between the Somali and Oromo regions, which are mainly disputes over territorial issues rather than rejection of federal government policy. The fighting in Benishangul-Gumuz on the otherhand could very well be lumped under the larger article as that is a conflict involving a total rejection of government policy and control for pretty much the same reasons as within the Tigray Region. Given the fact that the war between the TPLF and the ENDF has expanded into three regions, not to mention the alleged support of the TPLF for the rebels in Benishangul-Gumuz, this would justify renaming the article, as well as the inclusion of the fighting in Benishangul-Gumuz as a part of the article while excluding the fighting taking place within Oromia and the Somali region. An alternative would be to make page "Ethiopian civil conflict" the hub article, while this would be one of the splinter articles but under a separate regional name, such as the "Second Ethiopian Civil War in Tigray Region". Vivaporius (talk) 03:45, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Support I support the general idea however I would propose a different name, perhaps the "Second Ethiopian Civil War" as Vivaporious proposed. The conflict has spilled over into several regions, with the conflict spreading to the Afar and Amhara regions. The war is not limited to the Tigray region anymore. Dabaqabad (talk) 00:11, 6 August2021 (UTC)

Comment: "Remember that our goal here is to use terminology as it is found in media outlets with no serious political or ethnic ties to the region itself, as these sources are what most will know the conflict as internationally." put another way, this seems to say "Remember that our goal here is to rubberstamp and endorse whatever the New York Times, Economist and Defense Post conclude, and we have no other goal here but to give our seal of approval to these authorities." KZebegna (talk) 10:37, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

@KZebegna: You have a well-known history of disputing any source opposed to the edits that you make, as well as modifying articles to have more neutral language toward to the Ethiopian government in this article, which I appreciate since it often feels as if every Tigrayan editor has flocked to this location. However, you cannot dispute the sources we are using simply because you disagree with them. I will not take Tghat at face value for the same reason I will not take Fana (FBC) at face value. Both are biased sources, the former in favor of the TPLF and the latter in favor of the Prosperity Party. Our goal is to present neutral sources for readers, and whether or not you or any other editor likes it, the sources I used are indeed mostly neutral and present the information they are documenting in a neutral manner. Vivaporius (talk) 15:41, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Oh, I have a "well known history"? I didnt know that. Please show specific evidence of exactly how well known my history is. I do not believe intimidation of other contributors should be tolerated. KZebegna (talk) 16:20, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

@KZebegna: You have a strange concept of intimidation if valid criticism of your past actions can be construed as such. You already have it on your own talk page another user asking you not to remove sources and reverting edits you disagree with. My concern isn't your views, it's the attempt to use specific sources that are biased toward one side or another, while also putting down other cited sources. My first and only concern here is neutrality in the sources being used within this article. That's it. Vivaporius (talk) 18:02, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Oppose but encourage work on Ethiopian civil conflict (2018–present). There is no strong consensus among the sources for a fixed name, and yes, we do need to take into account English-language sources from federal Ethiopia and from Tigray Region, as KZebegna validly points out. Western-based RS's are reliable in the Wikipedia sense but they are not neutral; they statistically follow a well-studied and quantified propaganda model; see also Eisenhower's term "military–industrial complex". For a descriptive title, Tigray War is still valid, because the extension of territorial control by the TDF into the Amhara and Afar Regions is claimed as aiming to try to break the siege of Tigray Region, avoid a 1980s type war-induced mass famine, and start reconstruction of basic resources after the looting and destruction of most of the agricultural, medical and industrial infrastructure. Ethiopian civil conflict (2018–present) seems like a good start for an overview article. Boud (talk) 21:33, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

• Yo, yo, yo, yo what about all the other stuff that's happening in this country? Bokoharamwatch (talk) 21:41, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
  • @Bokoharamwatch: What do you mean? Are you talking about Oromia–Somali clashes, OLA insurgency, Benishangul-Gumuz conflict, 2020–21 Ethiopian–Sudanese clashes, etc, or something else?
• Re, unknown poster - EVERYTHING. Bokoharamwatch (talk) 17:01, 26 August 2021 (UTC) Ps ie, that is 'within' its borders. Bokoharamwatch (talk) 17:03, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose changing this page name to "War in Northern Ethiopia" for most of the reasons already enunciated above by (in chronological order): Wowzers122, Rastakwere, KZebegna, and especially the well-reasoned analysis of Boud.

However, I also sympathise with the sentiments expressed by Vivaporius that a regionally focussed name such as the "Second Ethiopian Civil War in..." (Tigray?) would help to avoid the article meandering off on a tangent or growing too prolix and unwieldy. --04:30, 25 August 2021 (UTC) BushelCandle

Okay, with TDF forces looking like they're marching on the capital, this war is becoming less and less of a regional war. I propose a compromise, where the main title of the page will be Tigray War, but afterwards we can say, "Sometimes called the Second Ethiopian Civil War". Noneal14224 (talk) 11:33, 2 November 2021 (UTC)Noneal14224

Move to "War In Tigray"

Hello! I have found that the attempted move to War in Tigray reached no consensus, so please make a consensus now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:248:681:25a0:4d36:31e0:1481:f500 (talk • contribs) 00:38, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

If you are talking about the discussion that I think you are, a more accurate summary might be that there was no consensus to move from the current name of Tigray War. In the absence of any consensus to move this article to a different name, then it stays where it is. --01:44, 10 September 2021 (UTC) BushelCandle

TDF Formation

@MikiSollo: Give me a reliable source that says the TDF was formed on November 4 Wowzers122 (talk) 13:43, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

I have some reliable sources saying the opposite of what claim including the New York Times, the Guardian, and the ICG

According to the New York Times and the International crisis group "Pro-T.P.L.F. fighters have regrouped this spring as the Tigray Defense Forces" and before that it was just pro-TPLF forces fighting.

The Guardian says the same thing but doesn't give a time: "Pro-TPLF fighters have regrouped under the Tigray Defence Forces, an armed movement led by the removed Tigrayan leaders and commanded by former high-ranking"

@Wowzers122: Check this post on Facebook by Tigray Communication Affairs Bureau (Verified Page of the Government of Tigray) on Nov 14, 2020, it clearly calls them as that.

Link: facebook.com/150790505635078/posts/683740195673437

On the post look for this → ሓይሊ ምክልኻል ትግራይ

ሓይሊ means Force (singular) without 's' with 's' it would be ሓይልታት meaning Forces (plural)

ምክልኻል means Defense and ትግራይ means Tigray

And on the posts after that, it calls them with the plural ሓይልታት (Forces).

Nov 19, 2020 post

Link: facebook.com/150790505635078/posts/687806438600146

On the post look for this → ሓይልታት ምክልኻል ትግራይ

Also on a YouTube Video of Dimtsi Weyane TV (one of the main Tigrayan satellite television channels in Tigray) interview of Central Command Spokesperson Getachew Reda that was uploaded on YouTube after it aired on TV on Nov 14, 2020, the interviewer calls them ሓይልታት ምክልኻል ትግራይ and it's also on the title of the video.

Link: youtube.com/watch/odsibApcNcg

ሓይልታት ምክልኻል ትግራይ means TIGRAY DEFENSE FORCES and ሓምት means TDF

MikiSollo (talk) 14:26, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

You can put lipstick on a pig, but at the end of the day, it is still a pig. The Tigray Defense/Defence Forces are merely the TPLF. All of the senior officials of the TPLF mirror those of the "TDF." Similar to the argument made on the talk page of the "Tigray Defense/Defence Force", a Defence force is defined as the armed forces of a country. Tigray is neither a country nor has its leaders explicitly reflect their intentions for Tigray to be an independent country. Anecdotally Ethiopians refer to the rebels in northern Ethiopia as the TPLF. All of the sources that MikiSollo has been using is directly from the TPLF, (Dimtsi Weyane, Tigray Television) are media outlets of the former, and are bias in favour of the TPLF. Ericandude (talk) 02:22, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

About the Third Opinion request: The request made at Third Opinion has been removed (i.e. declined). Like all other moderated content dispute resolution venues at Wikipedia, Third Opinion requires thorough talk page discussion before seeking assistance. A single post and reply will not suffice. If an editor will not discuss, consider the recommendations which are made here. — TransporterMan (TALK) 17:38, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

@Ericandude: Here's from the Spokesperson of the Government of Tigray himself using the American Spelling of 'Defense' on his Twitter page (verified) on his post from Nov 15, 2020

Link: twitter.com/reda_getachew/status/1327874109355778059

And on the official statement of the Government of Tigray released on Tigrai Media House - TMH Twitter Page, July 02, 2021

Link: twitter.com/Tmhtvnews/status/1410973905662234626

Also on the The New York Times articles

Article 1: www.nytimes.com/live/2021/06/29/world/tigray-ethiopia.amp.html

Article 2: www.nytimes.com/2021/07/11/world/africa/tigray-guerrilla-fighers-ethiopia-army.html

In Ethiopia (Tigray is still in the federation) everyone from grades K-12 is taught American English, all the teaching materials/ text books and teacher guides for American English Language Learning are produced and provided by the United States of America through USAID in collaboration with Ethiopian MoE, the program/ initiative is called 'English For Ethiopia'. MikiSollo (talk) 03:44, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

So you've never heard of the British Council ?

References

Tigray War Map

As much as it appears to be a useful resource I would like to question the source of the Tigray War map that has been in use over the past few months. Looking into the source provided by the user, it appears to be a map created by the user who arbitrarily edits the map as they see fit without providing any sources or reasoning as to where they obtain their information to make such changes. If anyone can provide further details into how this map was created, and edited with detailed source information I would like to know, and if one cannot provide that information then I would like for it to be a candidate for deletion. Ericandude (talk) 02:30, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

@Ericandude: The map comes from this Twitter user: [2] [3] He isn't biassed towards any side but it is a Twitter source so I don't know if this is an okay source. Wowzers122 (talk) 02:39, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

@Wowzers122: The Twitter account seems to show pictures of the battlefield, which appears to be credible. Given that information is difficult to verify in war, this appears to be the best source we have available right now. Ericandude (talk) 15:37, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Who has taken the responsibility to regularly update the map? According to the file posted, this map is from July 2021.Ericandude (talk) 17:55, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

That's just the name of the map file. I'm still updating it about once or twice a month. --Ue3lman (talk) 21:23, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for all your hard (and regular) work ! What do you think of the map that keeps being updated at Template:Ethiopian_wars_and_insurgencies_detailed_map ? --01:54, 9 September 2021 (UTC) BushelCandle

I feel like it should be updated less often. I've noticed recently that most of the edits don't even come from reliable sources (which most don't even fit the Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published_sources). So I've refrained from updating the territory map until reliable sources are used. --Ue3lman (talk) 03:03, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

It's a difficult one, since there are so few reliable up-to-date sources on the ground. However, anything hosted by the English Wikipedia should be based on reliable sources - that's fundamental. --03:24, 9 September 2021 (UTC) BushelCandle

Sekota was taken?

https://mobile.twitter.com/AgegnehuT/status/1433752164938170368

According to the Amhara regional president sekota was taken back in September 3rd. Why hasn't it been mark on the map? Are we waiting for visual confirmation? محرر البوق (talk) 01:40, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Please read relevant sections on this talk page before starting new sections covering essentially the same subject matter.

In this case, please read the Tigray War Map section. --01:49, 10 September 2021 (UTC) BushelCandle

I think the map is not on a reliable source a little bit biased because mostly it favour the anti government rebels Predator3333 (talk) 16:14, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Insightful?

• ‘Ethiopia is an empire and there are clear phases of growth, consolidation and decline. We are approaching, possibly, its final days’

and

• ‘If the conflict goes beyond Tigray, Syria will look like child’s play by comparison’ --08:15, 25 August 2021 (UTC) BushelCandle

Operation Sunrise and government counteroffensive

The "Course of the Conflict" section will need to be updated. In the last few weeks TDF forces launched an operation to capture Debre Tabor to the west and Dessie to the south but a largescale government counteroffensive pushed them back to Weldiya before reportedly being repulsed.

Other updates that ought to be added in the new section are the array of armed groups joining the TDF-OLA alliance, the reports that Eritrea is preparing for another invasion of Tigray from the north and east, and the alleged purchase of Turkish drones by the government. Reliable sources are a little hard to find on these, especially the government counteroffensive, so help would be appreciated. In the meantime I'm trying to see what works with what I've got in my spare time.

Cheers. ProjectHorizons (talk) 23:58, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Agreed.

(While I'm here, all your hard work with the map is really appreciated ! ) --09:08, 27 August 2021 (UTC) BushelCandle

Background

Provinces of Ethiopia before the Fascist Italian invasion in 1935. (Derived from Perham, Margery (1969): The Government of Ethiopia)

Recently some explanatory background text in our article was removed with an edit summary of "irrelevant" (this was just after a boring monochrome map showing the greater extent of Tigray in years prior to 1935 was also removed):

"The borders of Tigray have waxed and waned over the years and sometimes the officially delineated borders of Tigray have better reflected its wider cultural and socio-linguistic boundaries."

Ethiopia 1943 [ after Major-General H. E. de R. Wetherall & Major-General Charles Fowkes of the 1st and 2nd (African) Divisions of the British Army entered Addis Ababa on 6 April 1941 after routing the Italian colonial authorities.]

Until the Tigray Defence Forces acquire an effective air capability, the support of the local population will be vital ( "The guerrilla must move amongst the people as a fish swims in the sea." )

Hidmo style

If you look at the earlier political boundaries of Tigray you will see that they extended much further to the east, into what is now the very sparsely populated territory of what is currently delineated as Kilbet Rasu (before May 2006 known as Administrative Zone 2), one of five Zones of the Afar Region. The administrative centre of Kilbet Rasu is Abala (also known in the highlands as Shiket) and some of its population are mostly Orthodox Christian Tigraians who came from the highlands in the mid-20th Century (as is evident from the more robust Hidmo construction of their dwellings) - although there are some very tiny Tigraian hamlets that follow Islam.

To me it would be very logical for the next phase of the Tigray Defence Forces' campaign to be a push down the Mille River valley by the TDF to sever the A1 highway connection between Addis and Djibouti at the hamlet of Mile.

[ A statement of the Afar Revolutionary Democratic Unity Front (UGUGUMO) attributed the responsibility for the Galikoma massacre to the ENDF so the co-operation between Oromo nationalists and the Tigray Defence Forces may not be the only "my enemy's enemy is my friend" inter-ethnic alliance in the offing... ]

(On 11 August 2021, the Oromo Liberation Army leader, Kumsa Diriba, announced they had formed an alliance with the Tigray People's Liberation Front (TPLF) and that there were plans among opposition groups to establish a "grand coalition" against Abiy Ahmed.) --02:23, 27 August 2021 (UTC) BushelCandle

References

I second this request to name the border conflict between Amhara and Tigray. Amhara militias, aiming to achieve the Amhara nationalist goal of incorporation of West-Tigray and Raya into Amhara played an important role from the start of the conflict. It is doubtful whether Abiy - who is allied with Amhara nationalists - would have started a war without that additional motive. Musicmouse (talk) 14:12, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Why remove the map

Hello, why did we remove the map? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:248:681:25A0:0:0:0:6F29 (talk) 01:49, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

It was removed because it was largely sourced to anonymous Twitter posts, and so there was no way to verify that the information was accurate. Its better have no information than wrong information. Devonian Wombat (talk) 05:43, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Course of the conflict section

Shouldn't this section be in chronological order? --Ue3lman (talk) 02:05, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

United Front of Ethiopian Federalist and Confederalist Forces

see https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/05/nine-ethiopian-factions-to-form-alliance-against-government 155.245.69.178 (talk) 12:50, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

United Front

@Boud:Afar National Democratic Party is not part of united front. Also we need an article about the front. --Panam2014 (talk) 13:19, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 8 November 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. Editors are divided as to whether moving the article would be helpful. Although editors agree that armed conflict in Ethiopia currently exists beyond Tigray, there is no consensus whether it would be helpful to move this article, or keep it as covering the armed conflict between Tigray and the federal government. Proposed alternatives to the suggested move include creating another article (perhaps called Second Ethiopian Civil War), or repurpose the article Ethiopian civil conflict (2018-present) into one that covers the entire situation. (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 05:29, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

---

Tigray War → Ethiopian Civil War (2020–present) – The fighting is taking place outside of tigray now and over 9 opposition groups around the country (that control some territory) allied with tigray forces, and tigray itself closed in on adis ababa. Most sources call it “Ethiopia’s civil war”, the “ethiopian civil war” or the “civil war in Ethiopia” now 78.164.218.120 (talk) 11:38, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Lennart97 (talk) 12:10, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

• Obviously not controversial, converted into formal RM. I'll also note that some wider conflict seems to be encompassed in Ethiopian civil conflict (2018–present), but the relation and/or distinction between this conflict and the Tigray War isn't presented particularly clearly in either article. Lennart97 (talk) 12:10, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

I think a better name would be the Second Ethiopian Civil War. But I also think the article should be split with the civil war and the Tigray war being separate articles similar to the 2021 Oromo conflict. The Tigray War and Oromo conflict (2021) being the localized conflicts, the Second Ethiopian civil war being the broader war, and the Ethiopian civil conflict (2018–present) being the even broader conflict. Similar to how the Daraa insurgency, Eastern Syria insurgency, and Syrian Desert campaign (December 2017–present) are localized conflicts in the Syrian civil war which itself is a smaller conflict in the wider War on terror and Arab Spring.--Garmin21 (talk) 15:25, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

I agree with the name Second Ethiopian Civil War but I think Ethiopian civil conflict (2018–present) should be moved to that name. I don't understand what makes it a broader conflict than the civil war. Charles Essie (talk) 17:32, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

The Ethiopian civil conflict (2018–present) article talks about general civil and ethnic violence across the county for instance the Amhara attempted coup, the Afar-Somali clashes, and the Oromia-Somali have nothing to do with the Tigray war or the OLA insurgency but they are included in the article.--Garmin21 (talk) 19:04, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

@Garmin21 and Charles Essie: Following Garmin21' suggestions:

• The Tigray War and Oromo conflict (2021) being the localized conflicts - this makes sense;
• the Second Ethiopian civil war being the broader war - this makes sense, if the current TDF-OLA march towards Addis Ababa continues;
• Ethiopian civil conflict (2018–present) being the even broader conflict - this makes sense.

This structure is effectively an Oppose !vote - Second Ethiopian civil war or Ethiopian civil war (2020–present) would be a mostly new article, split off from Tigray War#TDF-OLA joint counter-offensive, and considering the "start" to be if the mainstream media start widely using the term "civil war". For the moment, the term is not (yet) used, and the chances of a negotiated solution still exist. Only Ethiopian civil conflict (2020–present) would be currently justified. Boud (talk) 00:24, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Support This is clearly much wider than Tigray now. TheAwesomeAtom (talk) 21:05, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

I haven't read enough to vote yet, but at a glance with the formation of United Front of Ethiopian Federalist and Confederalist Forces this can probably no longer be considered a regional conflict in Tigray. Is "Second Ethiopian Civil War" in use in sources? User:力 (powera, π, ν) 17:55, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Oppose I'm convinced Ethiopian civil conflict (2018–present) should be the main article on the conflict as a whole, and this article should stay focused on conflict in Tigray. Some other rename will probably be needed soon-ish, but not this one. User:力 (powera, π, ν) 18:21, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose Tigray War is succinct enough and most common name used by all media to call this conflict. Although it is a civil war in nature, it's mainly Tigray vs the Federal government. I don't really feel there is any need to change the article's name to a more generic one. Sgnpkd (talk) 18:18, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose There is a separate article, Ethiopian civil conflict (2018–present), to cover the wider civil war, which includes armed conflicts almost everywhere around Ethiopia. If you look carefully at Ethiopian civil conflict (2018–present), you'll notice that several of the massacres outside of Tigray Region took place in early November 2020. The general interpretation (not yet in the articles, we need proper RSes), is that these occurred because ENDF troops that previously had a stabilising role on local armed conflicts were shifted to Tigray Region. When the ENDF left, the locals went back to lethal conflict. So the wider civil war in Ethiopia has been linked to the Tigray War since a year ago. But this is too much material for a single article, especially given the lack of academic sources giving an overview. Renaming Tigray War to Ethiopian Civil War (2020–present) would make a mess of the material that we already have.
  As for the TDF moving south through the Amhara-Afar border region from July to November 2021, the Tigrayan government has repeatedly stated that the TDF is only doing this because there's a mass famine in Tigray Region underway, resulting from the massive pillaging and destruction of food stocks, livestock, and hospitals/schools/shops/other infrastructure, mainly by the Eritrean forces. So this is an attempt to break the humanitarian siege of Tigray Region, making it still very much the "Tigray" war.
  Think of it this way: Tigray War is effectively a sub-article of Ethiopian civil conflict (2018–present). Have a look at the content in Ethiopian civil conflict (2018–present) and you'll see that the best dividing line according to the sources is Abiy's selection as prime minister in 2018. Most of the separate components of the conflict started before November 2020 - including the Tigray War itself. Boud (talk) 20:03, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

I agree completely. I suggest we close this discussion and resume it at the Talk:Ethiopian civil conflict (2018–present). Charles Essie (talk) 22:15, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

• Support, but merge Ethiopian civil conflict (2018–present) to this page or rename page to 'Tigray front of the Ethiopian civil conflict (2018–present)' Mausebru the Peruvian (talk, contibs) 23:37, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

  This just doesn't make sense and would very likely count as original research. This is a complex, real-world situation with many threads of conflicts that, if we respect the sources, do not fit into neat boxes. This article is not about "a front", it's about a war that is generally considered to have started around midnight of 3/4 November 2020, and mostly involves the Tigray Region, and current attempts by Tigrayan forces to stop the famine that resulted from the war. Merging these two articles based on our current sources doesn't make sense. Boud (talk) 00:09, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

• Comment There is a misleading statement in the proposal: 9 opposition groups around the country (that control some territory) allied with tigray forces. In the group of 9 (not 1+9 = 10), only TDF (of the Tigrayan government) and OLA are known to control any territory. There are three small groups that are Wikipedia-notable, but currently we have no sources stating that they control any territory at all. There are four other small groups whose existence is not (yet?) Wikipedia-notable. There is an analysis at Talk:United Front of Ethiopian Federalist and Confederalist Forces to see if there is any prospect of notability of the smaller groups. At least one of them is disputed on Twitter by a group with a vaguely similar name, but there's not much info on that other group either. Boud (talk) 23:56, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
• Support After the formation of the UFEFCF, I'm pretty confident in saying that this war is no longer exclusive to just the Tigray region, and now encompasses all of Ethiopia. That and many large news outlets calling it an outright civil war, the name change would be adequate at this point in time. Justrz (talk) 00:59, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

  WP:PRECISE: Usually, titles should unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but should be no more precise than that. You appear to be excluding the Afar–Somali clashes, 2021 Ataye clashes, Oromo conflict (2021), Benishangul-Gumuz conflict, Oromia–Somali clashes and Gedeo–Guji clashes from the Tigray War would-be renamed article, unless you are introducing WP:OR or sources that are not yet used in those articles or in Ethiopian civil conflict (2018–present). How can a Wikipedia reader guess from the title that Ethiopian Civil War (2020–present) is the only the component of the war that started in Tigray Region and excludes all those other Ethiopian internal armed conflicts that mostly continued sporadically through 2020 and 2021? The new wave of ethnic detentions in Addis Ababa is apparently only targeted against ethnic Tigrayans, not against other ethnic groups, despite OLA joining the TDF. Boud (talk) 03:35, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

• Comment It seems like a better option would be to rename Ethiopian civil conflict (2018-present) to "Ethiopian Civil War (2018-present)" or "Second Ethiopian Civil War" or something of that nature. As others have pointed out, there are conflicts other than the Tigray one, even though they've started to coalesce as the rebels gain ground. Silver181 (talk) 05:48, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose, I find the comments arguing that this is essentially a sub-article of the 2018-present Ethiopia conflict article to be persuasive. I feel like that is the page that should be renamed, not this one. Devonian Wombat (talk) 13:01, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose This entire article centers around Tigray. Most of these groups that joined the UFEFCF have been fighting the Ethiopian government for decades yet there isn't a Second Ethiopian Civil War article so I don't see how this justifies an article name change. Ue3lman (talk) 19:20, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
• Wait I agree that this is effectively a civil war over Ethiopia in general instead of just in Tigray after recent events but we should wait until reliable sources begin calling this an Ethiopian civil war instead of just a war in Tigray. -- Maykii (talk) 02:37, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
• Support This war already has multiple rebel factions other then the TPLF rebelling against the ethiopian government and clearly if we look at the map it can be safe to assume that ethiopia is in civil war.The ethiopian civil conflict(2018-)can be a broader term for the war in ethiopia 116.14.135.91 (talk) 02:46, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
• Support This war, while so far mainly focused in Tigray, has spilled over into neighboring countries as well as stoked other conflicts. I think the events now happening almost daily are good reason to move this page. The page already has content on Oromo and other groups' involvement in the Tigray portion of the war; thus, not a lot of work would need to be done to merge pages. ArmageddonAviation (talk) 19:33, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
• Support The war has by now obviously spread to outside the Tigray region, and given that the Oromo Liberation Army among other rebel groups are fighting and have seized control of territory in other parts of Ethiopia in co-operation with the Tigray Defense Forces (not to mention countless of sources referring to the conflict as a civil war in Ethiopia) it is much more appropriate to rename the article to Second Ethiopian Civil War. Dabaqabad (talk) 23:17, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
• Support The war has spilled over to the Amhara and Afar regions where most of the battles are being engaged as we speak. There are also several self-declared "liberation fronts" all across Ethiopia with the prominent one being Oromo Liberation Front that is fighting within Oromia State and making big statements by claiming they have a presence near the capital so it makes absolutely no sense just to keep the article name "Tigray War". I also agree with the user above me that this article should be very well renamed as the Second Ethiopian Civil War. Ayaltimo (talk) 04:30, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

  If you look at this GAFAM original research map you'll see a huge amount of territory apparently controlled by OLA, but we don't (yet?) have reliable sources documenting these battles/territorial control, and it would make a mess to include them in this article, and would currently constitute original research. If you really can find some sources, then please first add the significant information and the sources to Oromo conflict (2021), which together with Tigray War, are valid sub-articles of Ethiopian civil conflict (2018–present). Keep in mind that OLF was armed opposition against the EPRDF, so was effectively fighting against the TPLF, and OLA is the armed movement split off the OLF; OLA and TPLF are currently allies, but they each have their own histories, cultures and actions, according to the sources, and merging them into a single "unit" is more likely to be confusing than clarifying. As for "big statements", those are only significant as just that: statements. Four of the small groups are not (yet?) Wikipedia notable, and the other three have very few sources documenting recent military actions or war crimes. Boud (talk) 18:54, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose: there is already an article for the general conflict taking place across Ethiopia (Ethiopian civil conflict (2018-present)). The article 'Tigray War' is about the specific conflict in the Tigray region.--Fontaine347 (talk) 12:28, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Oppose: because "Tigray War" is the common, most often used name. I agree it's a civil war, but then again the War in Darfur is also a civil war- yet we don't refer to it as one of the "Sudanese Civil Wars". Dunutubble (talk) 18:16, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

• Support and Merged I think both Ethiopian conflicts in the past three years and all of these ethnic rebel groups has created a military alliance from two weeks ago, is by this point to be evolve and merging both these two conflicts into essentially a new civil war within Ethiopia, since Eritea seceded from that nation since the First Ethiopian Civil War, with some spillover with Ethiopia's neighbors. Chad The Goatman (talk) 22:09, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose for all of the reasons so clearly expressed by Boud above. 04:02, 16 November 2021 (UTC) BushelCandle

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Mass deletion proposal of 106 Tigray War articles

Choose a deletion discussion such as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2020 May Kado massacre - your participation with arguments based on what the aims and method of Wikipedia are (Wikipedia policies and guidelines) either for or against the mass deletion of these 106 articles on massacres, or for or against the mass deletion procedure itself, or with a more nuanced alternative, should be added there. Your edit will in principle automatically appear on all 106 deletion discussion pages simultaneously. Boud (talk) 15:27, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Eritrean involvement in the Tigray War

I propose to create a specific article about Eritrean involvement in Tigray: Eritrean involvement in the Tigray War. [4]--Fontaine347 (talk) 14:23, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

• Aggre Lots of sources to make an article on their involvement I don't know why it hasn't been made. It can also go into much further detail on why Eritrea is involved in the first place, mostly because of their hatred of the TPLF ever since the border war. Ue3lman (talk) 18:26, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

@Fontaine347 and @Ue3lman, Agreed. I propose naming it "Eritrean intervention in the Tigray War". Dunutubble (talk) 18:11, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

On that note we should also have an article for Amhara involvement as well. Wowzers122 (talk) 18:42, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

@Wowzers122Sounds good. Dunutubble (talk) 20:06, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

BTW how much do we even know about the Amhara militias? We don't know what specific groups are called, their size, or really anything about them. We don't even have an article for Amhara regional special forces yet.--Garmin21 (talk) 20:25, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

I think we only have Fano (militia) - which includes the ambiguity about whether it's a concrete group or a loose term and whether or not it overlaps with formal Amhara Region Special Forces. We can't do any better than the sources that we find. If you can find sources, then go ahead. You could try seeing if Amhara Region government/parliament/ministries have websites which give legal declarations. I have no idea how much is defined regionally versus federally in legal terms. And of course media, academic reports and human rights investigation reports for describing what they actually do. Boud (talk) 17:48, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Reorganisation of the massacre articles

• mass deletion proposal of 25 articles:
  • Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2020 May Kado massacre (2nd nomination)
  • extra discussion: Talk:Timeline of the Tigray War#Dealing with the 106 individual massacre articles
• merger/rename proposal for the Hawzen massacres, looting and ENDF rape camp in Hawzen
  • Talk:November 2020 Hawzen massacre#Requested move 20 November 2021 (and brief comment above).

Boud (talk) 19:44, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 19 November 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved Clear consensus against; closing early per WP:SNOW. Editors are reminded that repeatedly discussing the same issue in a short span of time is rarely productive. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 04:56, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

---

Tigray War → 2020–2021 Ethiopian conflict – i think it was very premature for the other user to request to change this article’s name to ethiopian civil war (2020-present) since it is not a full-blown civil war yet, but i think we can safely say that instead “Ethiopian conflict” is now the most common name if you search the conflict on google. also regarding Ethiopian civil conflict (2018–present) i personally think it’s a violation of WP:OR and needs to have it’s name changed so let’s not think about using “2020–2021 Ethiopian conflict” on that article, every article says the conflict/civil war in ethiopia has been going for a year since the November 3 attack. (We can also instead use Ethiopian conflict (2020–present), please mention what article name in your responses. 85.107.226.164 (talk) 09:09, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). 85.107.226.164 (talk) 09:17, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose: There's really no point. We already have an article for this and the Tigray war article is ONLY meant for Tigray front of the broader war. What you are proposing we would have to completely rewrite both articles, a monumental task. Also what makes something a "Civil war" to you?--Garmin21 (talk) 18:41, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
  • The other article is WP:OR, putting together multiple conflicts into one without sources saying so. Obviously the latest tigray offensive is an escalation of this conflict which should be renamed. 85.107.226.164 (talk) 21:11, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose: This is essentially the same rename proposal as the one above that closed with no consensus, but with civil war downgraded to conflict. Essentially the same arguments apply: the rename would oblige us to merge in information on the Afar–Somali clashes, 2021 Ataye clashes, Oromo conflict (2021), Benishangul-Gumuz conflict, Oromia–Somali clashes and Gedeo–Guji clashes into the Tigray War article, instead of leaving the overview to Ethiopian civil conflict (2018–present) (which currently doesn't list many links between those conflicts, even though some sources are available describing the relations, which are unsurprising, given that Ethiopia has a long history varying between centralising and decentralising sociopolitical pressures). For the actual events that are currently getting the most international media attention, TDF–OLA joint offensive is available for adding updates. Boud (talk) 23:25, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per Boud. Doesn't address the issues raised in the last move. I doubt any proposal will find consensus, but something like Tigray theatre of the 2021 Ethiopian Civil War would at least be different enough to consider anew. User:力 (powera, π, ν) 23:31, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per Boud. Kanatonian (talk) 05:07, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose - If the conflict lasts longer than 2021, then you'll be renaming it again. Leave it alone for the time being. Platonk (talk) 03:43, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose - Is there a need for this request? A similar discussion was just closed and there have been no substantial developments since then. With regards to the original research claim, I think that's better discussed in that article. Nicholas O'Neal (talk) 00:55, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Vaccination

Can we add a section on how Ethiopia is losing out on the tremendous benefits of the vaccination because of the of the Tigray war. Depopfreak (talk) 06:11, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

1. Sources which make this explicit link?
2. Is this really that significant of a consequence of this war?
3. Wouldn't this be far better placed at COVID-19 pandemic in Ethiopia? RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 15:34, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Don't see how this is a significant factor that it deserves its own section. I agree with RandomCanadian that it would be better placed in the COVID-19 pandemic in Ethiopia article instead of here. Ue3lman (talk) 16:27, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

@Depopfreak: Disruption of vaccination programs, especially with the systematic looting and destruction of hospitals and other infrastructure in Tigray Region, together with the fuel, cash and food blockade, is a lot broader than just a loss of COVID-19 vaccinations. Currently, we have no "E" countries at all between Vaccination policy#Costa Rica and Vaccination policy#Finland, so that article would be a good place to start adding properly sourced information (though the article will get huge when all UN member and observer states are included). COVID-19 pandemic in Ethiopia makes sense for the COVID-19-specific information. Boud (talk) 23:00, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Infobox gone wild

The infobox on the righthand side of the page has gotten completely out of control and probably needs a thorough going over for verification as I have discovered speculative content being posted as fact.

Per Template:Infobox military conflict, "Information summarized in an infobox should follow the general guidance for writing a lead section. It should not "make claims" or present material not covered by the article. As with a lead section, there is some discretion in citing information in an infobox. The same guidance should be applied to an infobox as given for citations in a lead section. Information in an infobox must conform with verifiability, point-of-view and other policies. Information in the infobox should not be "controversial". Refer the reader to an appropriate section in the article or leave the parameter blank rather than make an unsubstantiated or doubtful claim."

I am removing three of the five "Support" entries as speculation (UAE, Eritrean opposition, Sudan). The source articles mention one side accusing a third party of supporting their opponent, and the third party denies it. The end. Undeserving of a mention in the article and definitely shouldn't be in the infobox as fact.

The remaining two are not entities that are supporting the war effort, but have merely endorsed the Ethiopian government's position (per the cited source) — therefore I'm changing the word "Support" to "Endorsed by". The word "support" connotes sending money, equipment, or troops; those that have done that seem to have been added to the section above under "Belligerents". (I'm not even sure the endorsements should remain in the infobox.)

Reminders: Wikipedia is not a newspaper, synthesising conclusions is a no-no, and advocacy is unacceptable. Per WP:ADVOCACY, "use of Wikipedia to promote personal beliefs or agendas at the expense of Wikipedia's goals and core content policies, including verifiability and neutral point of view."

Slow down, don't rush to add juicy tidbits to the article, check your sources, and don't make conclusions not specifically mentioned in the sources.

I applaud the recent influx of editors jumping in, making corrections, and improving the article. Please continue! Platonk (talk) 21:18, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

@Platonk-With all due respect, I understand your message, but I did write that it was only Ethiopia who accused Sudan of supporting Tigray.

Also, while I'm not sure about the Eritrean opposition, Sudan has played a significant role in the war, allowing significant amounts of Tigrayan refugees in, and is currently in a state of war with Ethiopia and Eritrea, directly a result of the Tigray conflict. Dunutubble (talk) 17:04, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

@Dunutubble: "Claims" rarely have any place in a Wikipedia article. See WP:What Wikipedia is not. Platonk (talk) 20:31, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Multiple investigations have shown that the UAE has been significantly involved in the conflict.--Garmin21 (talk) 00:27, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Not my job. Per WP:CHALLENGE, "All content must be verifiable. The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material". If what you assert is true, then gather up your reliable sources, describe it in the body of the article, and then maybe add it to the infobox. Weak claims, assertions, speculations, and accusations have no place in the infobox. It is the responsibility of the editor adding content to the article to correctly cite their content to reliable sources. The removing-editor is not duty bound to research whether or not the poorly-cited-stretched-truth content might actually be true. Platonk (talk) 04:17, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

I did, however, look briefly at the three citations you provided, Garmin21: the first is a blog, the second doesn't verify your assertion, but the third one (published just yesterday) seems like it might work for you. You should put content in the body of the article, not the infobox. But be careful that this is still just speculation, strong though it may be. Until you hear either an Ethiopian or UAE official express that UAE is supporting Ethiopia, I would be careful how you word it. What I had removed was under the single word "Support" and the citation had nothing more substantial than speculation, accusations and denials. Platonk (talk) 04:17, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

the problem with that is it's likely the UAE and the Ethiopian government will never admit that the UAE is giving support or it may take months for them to admit. It took them months before they admitted that Eritrea was in anyway involved.--Garmin21 (talk) 04:51, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

It isn't a problem; Wikipedia is not a newspaper. Wikipedia is not trying to be the first agency to report on some breaking news. Here, you are an editor of an encyclopedia; you are not an investigative reporter writing for a newspaper. There is no downside to Wikipedia waiting for information to appear in secondary reliable sources, and no downside to couching how we say it. YOU MAY NOT draw conclusions not explicitly written in reliable sources, nor make observations in the real world, and add either to Wikipedia without also citing a reliable source (and you don't count as one; neither do I). Platonk (talk) 05:06, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

"UAE is providing extensive support to Ethiopian army" am I drawing conclusions?--Garmin21 (talk) 03:05, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Rather than squeeze all the information and talk page discussion into this "main" article, better would be to start Foreign involvement in the Tigray War, along the lines of Foreign involvement in the Yemeni Civil War or Foreign involvement in the Syrian civil war, but better first get a rough consensus on an acceptable name: capitalisation (War) or not (war)? Tigray war or Ethiopian civil war? There's overwhelming evidence, in the sense of sources, of Eritrean involvement, and evidence of UAE involvement has been building up for a long time. There are some sources pointing to some other states' involvement. Then a summary of that page would make sense here. And adding/removing foreign involvement in the infobox would become uncontroversial on this page.

Please be careful to avoid stating what "is happening" or "has happened" (which generally means "recently"; we don't say that Julius Caesar "has fought" some battles or "has led the Roman Republic") - see WP:RELTIME; the warning This article's factual accuracy may be compromised due to out-of-date information that is currently at the top of the Syrian article shows how a statement like "The Iraqi Government has sent Assad ... since 2011" is highly misleading in 2021, since the reference is for 2013, but would have still been correct today, with the same reference, if it had been written properly. Boud (talk) 22:21, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Sources

Wolaita Defence force

A couple of weeks ago people were trying to add the Wolaita Defence force to the infobox and I finally found a source that states it exists, should I add it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Garmin21 (talk • contribs) 03:03, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Not a reliable source. See WP:RSP#WordPress.com. Platonk (talk) 07:09, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

ok--Garmin21 (talk) 13:52, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Sources

Questions about humanitarian maps

Two questions:

1. Are adding maps about the humanitarian situation allowed on Wikipedia?
2. The Atlas maps only cover Tigray. Since the Amhara and Afar regions are also part of the crisis, does anyone know any other maps that cover northern Ethiopia? Ue3lman (talk) 00:29, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

• @Ue3lman: Maps are used to describe geography and location. If you are referring to the "Tigray: Atlas of the humanitarian situation" document on ResearchGate that Rastakwere added to everything, I remind you that it is a self-published document and should not be used in Wikipedia per reliable source guidelines. If you are wondering why that document doesn't show areas outside of Tigray, it is because the authors wrote it about Tigray... not the Tigray War. I suspect they already had a research document in the works when the conflict broke out, and then they co-opted it. Platonk (talk) 01:23, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Is the UK more important in knowledge of the world than Ethiopia?

Please see Talk:EHRC#UK vs Ethiopian Human Rights Commission for repeated attempts to prevent EHRC from being a disambiguation page treating the UK (minus Scotland) and Ethiopian human rights commissions as both encyclopedic topics, rather than one being primary. See WP:BIAS. This is not the UK.encyclopedia. Anyway, the place to present arguments is on that talk page, not here. Boud (talk) 22:46, 6 December 2021 (UTC)