Talk:Thomas Phillips (mayor)

Date of death

BBC's Who Do You Think You Are? for Jack and Michael Whitehall here shows a memorial plaque for Philips installed at St Woolos Cathedral which clearly shows Philips date of death as 30 September 1843. The death was also reported in the Monmouthshire Merlin. The programme also claims he was buried there. So I think the current source for the date (and place) in the article here must be wrong. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:08, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

But the only source we have for a death date of 1843 is the memorial plaque at St Woolos and that copy of the Merlin report, both shown in the BBC programme, but neither of which seem to call him Sir or to even mention the Newport Rising. His death is only mentioned in passing at ‘’The Genealogist’’ article, which gives no firm confirmation of a death date. So I’m tempted to restore all the previous information, and date of death of 1867, based on the previous sources (even though those three biographies seem to be largely copies). Martinevans123 (talk) 12:53, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

I now have it on good authority that "there has been a mix up" with the date of Thomas's death. So I'm reverting to the older version, with the same older source. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:42, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

It seems clear that Sir Thomas Phillips and Thomas Jones Phillips are entirely separate people, likely unrelated, and the fact that they were both present at the Newport Rising (Thomas Jones Phillips arriving later per the BBC story) is coincidental. Therefore I believe the section relating to Prothero, the True Blues and "clerk to the magistrates" should be removed and the story also clarified on the Newport Rising page. Thomas Jones Phillips may even deserve his own page? Kingdonlwt (talk) 14:03, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Thomas Jones Phillips or Thomas Phillips?

There seems to be some confusion/ overlap between Thomas Jones Phillips (who was married to Mary Ann, died 11 January 1850) and the Thomas Phillips described at DNB here. Not quite sure how to resolve this. I have commented out material taken from the DNB for now. Not sure who the image is of. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:22, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

There is a genealogical record here for Thomas Jones Phillips showing a 1790 date of birth. Paul W (talk) 10:41, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

But it seems that one was called Smith (after his mother?). The curious thing about the DNB entry by George Clement Boase is that the first half looks perfectly credible (except that he doesn't name him correctly as Jones Phillips, of course). Martinevans123 (talk) 10:43, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

The same genealogical site (here) does confirm his wife to be Mary Ann (born 1790 - died 11 January 1850), while their children all appear to carry the Phillips surname (not Smith). Paul W (talk) 10:53, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Ah, I see. That's very intriguing. Perhaps Boase is also giving the date and place of birth for someone else. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:56, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

One thing I noted on reviewing the BBC programme is that the memorial plaque shows Thomas Jones Phillips as aged 55 at his death (so born c. 1788), so the genealogical record may not be right. Slightly more reliable, perhaps, is an article in The Genealogist about the BBC programme, which includes some additional detail. Paul W (talk) 11:03, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Yes, that's true. Well spotted. Although it also invalidates the current date of 1801 as well, of course. That looks like it would be a good source. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:16, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

The Genealogist includes some additional detail, including confirmation that Phillips practiced as an attorney/solicitor in Newport in partnership with Thomas Prothero in 1826. Paul W (talk) 11:19, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Yes and there's the detail about him being Vice-Chair of the Newport True Blue Benefit Society. It ought to be quite easy to get a photo of that plaque from St Woolos. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:21, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Just to add to the confusion, there is this entry at the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (log-in required) for "Phillips, Sir Thomas (1801–1867)" by a D. T. W. Price, which looks remarkably similar to the DNB one by Boase (and also without any mention of the name Jones). Martinevans123 (talk) 17:54, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

There's another here, by Professor David Williams at biography.wales, again with no mention of Jones, but this time with an image of him with his injured arm. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:30, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Here's a newspaper report of his 1867 death in the County Observer. I must admit this seems to cast far more doubt on the BBC programme. So we may have to have a wholesale revert. Any suggestions? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:37, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Further complication

Looking at Mayor of Newport, we find "Newport City Council provide a list of past mayors of Newport on their website, with records beginning in 1314" here. Notice that, in 1822, there was a Mayor named "Thomas Jones Phillips". Surely not the same man? Our Newport Rising Mayor is listed, as expected in 1838, as "Sir Thomas Phillips". If he had been born in 1788, he would have been only aged 34 in 1822. A bit young for a Mayor? Martinevans123 (talk) 17:13, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Except that the National Archives here provides a record of a case dated 1823 Sept 1 which involved "Thomas Jones Phillips, Mayor of Newport". So it seems he was indeed Mayor twice? Martinevans123 (talk) 17:25, 6 August 2019 (UTC) (And an interesting turn around for Elizabeth Davies, convicted for "stealing wearing apparel from John Orwin", who had her sentence reduced from "7 years. Transportation" to a "Free Pardon")

Or was this perhaps his father? Is that the "Thomas Jones Phillips" who is commemorated on the memorial plaque? It's hard to believe they would forget to include the title of "Sir" on that tablet, or the fact that he was Mayor, or that he had saved Newport from the Chartists? Except a birth date of 1788 would not allow for a birth date of 1801 for his son. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:22, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Image of Mary Ann Phillips

It seems likely that the image of Mary Ann Phillips: here is of the wife of Thomas Jones Phillips, who was Mayor in 1822, who apparently died on 30 September 1843 and who has a memorial plaque in St Woolos' Cathedral. Sir Thomas Phillips never married. So I'd suggest it should be removed. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:39, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Interesting @Martinevans123:, I took that Mary Anne was the wife from the BBC program that used the church memorial in the "Who Do You Think You Are" programme. Not a reliable source or do we know that the program was wrong? Victuallers (talk) 08:37, 11 August 2019 (UTC)