Talk:The Executioner (book series)

2014 Update

Tried to some major updates to the main page which was just a cluttered mess. I think the problem with Bolan is that the series has such a large universe that things tend to get a bit messy. My ideas to improve on this:

• All major details about Able Team/Phoenix Force/Stony Man spinoffs should be kept to those pages and away from Executioner page. A link explaining they are spinoffs from the series (as posted already) will suffice for the main Executioner page. But any details/character descriptions should be kept in their respective Able Team/P.Force/Stony Man sections.

• There is no need for a separate SuperBolan page to explain the series. There is none yet, but I think it is best to keep it that way. It's the same exact thing as The Executioner just double the size in pages.

• List of titles. Perhaps create just one main page to list all Executioner and SuperBolan titles? This will clear up the cluttered looking list on the main page, while still displaying the information in a much nicer/friendly manner.

• The Mack Bolan page is essentially just a slightly expanded page explaining what is already in this section. I would recommend a deletion for the Mack Bolan page and keeping his character description within the Executioner series.

Moore2014 (talk) 06:11, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Comments on the Notes at the beginning of page

This article has multiple issues. Please help improve it or discuss these issues on the talk page.

• It relies on references to primary sources or sources affiliated with the subject, rather than references from independent authors and third-party publications. Tagged since September 2009.

Comment: This is a rather stupid comment. Of course the references are going to be from primary sources. The article is about a series of books. Where else would references and information come from? There is very little information out on their on this topic from independent authors and third-party publications. This is the whole point of Wikipedia. I think the administrators somehow loose site of this fact. Suggest this be deleted as serves no useful purpose other than stating the obvious.

• It describes a work or element of fiction in a primarily in-universe style that may require cleanup. Tagged since September 2009.

Comment: Disagree with this statement as well. The article describes facts about the subject. I don't think readers that do not have any notion about the series will NOT understand what is being conveyed. In-Universe implies that only those familiar with the series will understand what is going on.

• Its plot summary may be too long or excessively detailed. Tagged since September 2009.

Comment: This states an "opinion" what is too long or excessive? It seems to me that an encyclopedia should summarize a subject for those unfamiliar with the details. The length of an article is dependent upon the familiarization of the subject. The less familiar to the general public the more details are needed.

• It is in a list format that may be better presented using prose. Tagged since September 2009.

Comment: Someone will need to explain why prose would be a better presentation style than list. FrankWilliams (talk) 18:07, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Calvin James

Although the information on Calvin James was good and complete, it was a bit long. All the other team members have short synopsis on them and Calvin James should not be any different. Also, added a "New Members" section within Phoenix Force to distinguish from the founding members. If anyone objects let's discuss. FrankWilliams 14:59, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Page moved

The disambiguator "paperback" is somewhat inappropriate since this article is not about one book -- in fact it is about a literary franchise. I have therefore moved the article. I also suggest that in the near future the individual series of books be split up into articles of their own. 23skidoo 13:10, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I initially started the article for just the "Executioner" franchise. However, because there was very little with regards to the spinoff series as other articles, I added it since it was related and because the executioner stories are so intermingled with the spin-off series. I think ideally there should be an article for "Phoenix Force" and "Able Team". The info in the executioner article should remain as a way of tying all three franchises together. FrankWilliams 14:07, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, no argument there. I originally was going to move the article to Executioner (literary franchise) however that seems to be an uncommon term. And to move it to Executioner (character) is obviously wrong since Mack Bolan has an article. I also agree that, since the other spinoffs have (or will have) their own articles, a separate one for the magazine is also warranted, though it's worth noting here that one was published. I wasn't sure at first if there was a connection to Pendelton until I found the cited webpage that indicated that it had a Pendelton connection, at least at first. 23skidoo 15:07, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

New Article

I created a Phoenix Force article with the proper links. They along with Able Team can continue to grow while the executioner article can serve as a place that ties all three franchies together with minimal edits and changes to the Phoenix Force and Able Team paragraphs.FrankWilliams 14:31, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

List of books

The list is waaay too long. Why not just link to the relevant lists on MackBolan.com? - KingRaptor 09:49, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Agreed that the list is long; however wiki articles should be self enclosed. If a link goes down the list is unavailabe. Also, just in principle most of the information in wiki is "Somewhere" why not just link everything. :) Seriously, this is why the list is at the end; that way users who are not interested don't have to scroll through. FrankWilliams 13:24, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Heroic Virtue Philosophy Behind The Executioner

"Mack Bolan was simply a man who could command himself." – Don Pendleton, War Against the Mafia

"There are men, wrote Aristotle, so godlike, so exceptional, that they naturally, by right of their extraordinary gifts, transcend all moral judgment or constitutional control: 'There is no law which embraces men of that calibre: they are themselves law.'" Hughes-Hallett, Lucy. Heroes. Alfred A. Knopf, 2004.

Citations missing

I have added the citations missing template to the article. Other then citations for 3 aliases he uses in one of the hundreds of books, it is currently unreferenced. Proper, inline citations need to be added for the article to carry proper encyclopedic value. Also, citations from secondary sources need to be added as well, as citing the books is not quite enough (see WP:FICT). For an article on such a notable book series this desperatly needs to be fixed. I know for a fact there are many Don Pendleton interviews transcribed on the internet, along with many other secondary and tertiary sources that can be used. I will try to help cleanup the article as well, but this is something that is going to take more then just my involvement, as I have not read any of the books in years. Any help by fellow editors would be greatly appreciated. It also may be a good idea to merge in the Mack Bolan article. I believe there is little a seperate article can add as the character is tied so specifically to the series of books and vice versa. That article is also in desperate need of repair, and does not appear salvageable in it's current state.

Iarann 08:46, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

"Anonymous team of writers"

In the series listing, alongside the 39th title we find this: "taken over by an anonymous team of writers as 'Don Pendleton's Mack Bolan'". There are several problems with this. First and most significant, there was from #39 until some time after I quit buying on a regular basis (if it did in fact ever stop appearing) a note on the reverse of the title page, above the copyright info, reading, "Thanks to [name] for his special contributions to this work" or extremely similar words, and there was never any doubt in my mind that this was whoever actually wrote the thing. The early Gold Eagle titles were packaged as "Mack Bolan The Executioner," a stylized logo, and the novel's title bylined "by Don Pendleton." The first three titles in the ABLE Team and Phoenix Force side series had Pendleton's name above the real writer in the byline, too. This can in fact be seen in the repros of the covers of those series' respective first entries here. Beginning with #48 of the regular series, Pendleton's name was reduced to a blurb, "Based on the character created by...." Only as of #54 is it rendered in the possessive described in the article (all this via cover scans at mackbolan.com—truly linked at the bottom of the article—which also identifies the supposedly "anonymous" writers of each and every book). I feel the article needs to be revised relevant to these particulars.

All this aside, I feel there should be some acknowledgement of Pinnacle's The Executioner's War Book, beyond being cited as a source three times. And the listings should also make clear that #63, The New War Book, is not a novel but does for the Gold Eagle entries what the above did for the Pinnacle series. Just because the earlier volume does not carry a number within the regular series sequence does not mean it is less a part of the series than the later one. Ted Watson (talk) 20:15, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

After making minor edits to the above, I glanced at the article and saw that most had been implemented, but now the three references to the original War Book volume have been changed to the 'New' one, retaining Pinnacle as publisher. Not right, as these are indeed two separate but similarly formatted books. For that, I don't need to wait for somebody else. --Ted Watson (talk) 22:53, 1 November 2008 (UTC) (actually about 22:00)

I have done what I said above and fixed a few typos, but found a new problem. Two different statements are attributed to page 200 of the first book in the series. While I concede that the first, summarizing how Bolan's Mafia War began, is to be found in that volume, the other, about the high level Mafia hitmen known as Black Aces, can not. Pendleton introduced this concept well into the series. Furthermore, my copy of #1 had only 180-something pages. These need to be corrected by someone who has copies of the series and can get the accurate page number for the first and the correct citation for the second. Thanks. --Ted Watson (talk) 22:53, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Correct on both counts. IIRC, none of the original 38 had more than 180 (but I don't have mine handy). It looks like there was confusion over citing; the War Book does have 200 (counting ads...). And IIRC, the term "black ace" didn't appear til Johnny Cavaretta was so described in Panic in Philly, IIRC (tho "Frankie Lucky" may've been so described; I recall him being called Taliferi).

Also correct on credit to the New War writers. I never had any doubt Pendleton didn't write them, either (especially since Bolan seemed like a completely different person...), nor who actually did. TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 17:22, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

What a character

Anybody think adding a complete list of characters from the Mob Wars, as a separate page, is worthwhile? (I've got my copy of the Warbook in front of me...) And, any suggestions for how much detail on it to add? I'm planning a substantial expansion of the section on that basis. (When I get my collection out of storage, I'll do the pages on the individual books.) TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 05:22, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

I fought the law

Having introduced Petersen, I now think putting it in was a mistake, & so deleted this:

"With Pendleton involved in a legal battle with the publishers over ownership of the series, Pinnacle had the next entry, The Executioner #16: Sicilian Slaughter, written by an unknown writer under the pseudonym "Jim Petersen" (Pendleton wrote what was published as #17, Jersey Guns, as his own sequel to Panic in Philly under a new contract with New American Library, which was voided by the terms of his settlement with Pinnacle)."

It was, at best, wrongly placed in the Wars section. It seems to me better included on Pendleton's own page. If not, a "legal issues" section here. In either case, with (if possible) more details of the dispute. Thoughts? TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 17:22, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

As my passage is expressly about the publication history of this series and is surely unusual, interesting, and notable, it should be somewhere in this article. Since we are doing a book-by-book rundown of the series, the fact that #16 was not only not written by Pendleton, but in fact not the least bit authorized by him and ignored by him in his next entry is clearly important (there is a prologue added to Jersey Guns stating that Bolan was wounded during re-entry into the US, but the text of the novel itself says he is driving the Panic in Philly Black Ace's car and wearing his scarf, and at one point Turrin tells Mack that after the Executioner drew attention to what was going on in Sicily, conventional law enforcement took care of it; nevertheless, Don states in that interview that he ignored #16, so that part was not OR).

One other thing, TREKphiler—under Wiki-regs, footnotes are for source citations, not textual asides, so I am going to change the "Bolan abroad" note back (it will be a little while, though). Also, I was following established precedent here with the full colons between number and title; your way has too many commas, potentially confusing. --Ted Watson (talk) 20:48, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I won't complain (too loud ;D) about the reinsert of the "abroad"; I object to using "[]" rather than "()" & the colons. What about "Sicilian Slaughter (#5)"? If that suits, I can change it right away.

On OR, I don't think I even implied it was...

I'm not strongly opposed to including the legal issue; it just struck me this is more on the series events than the external legal/publishing issues around the books.

As for whether Don had anything to do with 16, I never thought so, & the fact Bolan came right back to Jersey makes sense, knowing that's what Don originally intended. That Bolan is driving Cavaretta's car, IIRC, was explained by having it left at Teterboro airport (to explain how he still was, after the Petersen interlude...).

Speaking of whom, is it known if that really was his name, or was he just some nameless Pinnacle hack? TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 20:59, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

If your only concern (other than colons vs. commas) was preferring parentheses to brackets, why didn't you simply make that change instead of reverting to footnote? I would think that changing the way the titles are formatted requires obtaining a consensus.

It merely occurred to me that what I had just then written might have left me open to a charge of OR, so in paranoia I fired off a pre-emptive shot. No intent to imply you had suggested it previously.

I am not "strongly opposed" to the legal issue being moved to some other part of this article, but you suggested moving it to the one on Pendleton. There, too, a good idea.

Who says Pendleton had "originally intended" Bolan to return from Sicily via Jersey? When he wrote Jersey Guns, he wasn't intending that Bolan had left the country at this point at all, so that doesn't prove it. Besides, you just can't get around Turrin telling Mack that others had already taken care of the gradigghia so he didn't need to wipe them out himself, supposedly just after he had done so (in #16).

In the interview cited, Pendleton flatly and with no further elaboration says that "Jim Petersen" was a pseudonym. I'm telling you, absolutely everything in that passage was covered by the given source; Don even says there that somebody inserted a bit into his text of Guns to allow for #16's events. --Ted Watson (talk) 22:06, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Why didn't I change it? Because a) I had no idea it was frowned on to do it as I did & b) it makes more sense to me to footnote, because it doesn't break the narrative flow nearly so much.

"Pendleton had 'originally intended'" I meant "originally intended" to go right to Jersey Guns (or something like it) without ever going to Sicily. Philly & Jersey dovetail so perfectly, you could skip Sicily entire & miss nothing. (Actually, you'd miss an awful ripoff, so you'd be better advised to skip it. ;D )

Add to Pendleton page. Agreed; I'll do it immediately.

"inserted" It's been years since I read Dave's interview, so I'll take your word for it. (Where my copy is, I can only guess...)

Petersen. We seem to be talking past each other. I'd be interested in knowing who "Petersen" really was, is all. Did he write anything else, was he just somebody on Pinnacle staff, or what? Not to suggest a) Don knew or b) you know & c) either or both aren't telling. I get the sense you think I don't believe you. Nope.

One other thing. Have you got anything that suggests there were contract issues around the time of Command Strike? The War Book suggests there was a wrap intended, & the fashioning of the "Hell Week" books suggests Don wanted a quick wrap because of a sale to or deal with Gold Eagle. TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 01:09 & 01:17, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

BTW, added to Pendleton. TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 01:17, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

'"originally intended'": Check The Executioner's War Book, frequently cited in the article, and you'll find a section reproducing letters Pendleton received from fans over the years with the responses he wrote back. In one of them, he talks of the situation here, saying he was considering titling the "upcoming" book Sicilian Slaughter or Sicilian Safari. He definitely intended Mack to go to Italy after Philly; (but dropped that when Pinnacle's ghost used it; "skip Sicily entirely and miss nothing" was precisely Don's idea. I think the reason the next dozen or so entries are essentially self-contained is so that sort of thing couldn't happen again—all synthesis, I admit).

By "flatly and no elaboration" I meant that Don said absolutely nothing beyond noting Petersen was a pseudonym; he gave no hint that he had any idea he knew who was behind it. I always felt it was chosen because it was vaguely similar to "Don Pendleton" (but then wouldn't the first name have been "Dan" or "Dave"?) and would guess that it was probably never used again.

"inserted": No idea what you're talking about here. Sorry.

"contract issues around the time of Command Strike": Actually, the situation looks exactly the opposite to me. Strike was the last of a trilogy, and it was immediately preceded by War Book (that volume strongly suggests—at least to my way of thinking—that Pinnacle and Don were on reasonably good terms at that point). Furthermore, as you say, Pendleton could have wrapped up the Mafia Wars right then if he had wanted to. Instead, he has Bolan fighting a weakened mob for two books, then sets up his "second 'last mile'" with Tennessee Smash. My only regret here is that when somebody reminded Pendleton that "Hondo" Harrelson (IIRC) and his mercenaries (from Colorado Kill-Zone) were still out there somewhere, it was a second trip to my native Texas (judging from dialogue) that got dropped to make room for that rematch. --Ted Watson (talk) 23:31, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Sicily. Yeah, it does. I didn't have to look; I recall reading it. As usual, faulty memory, or I wouldn't have said it to begin with... ;D

"inserted" To be clear: "Don even says there that somebody inserted a bit into his text of Guns to allow for #16's events." I don't recall what Dave "the Dude"'s interview said.

Peterson. Agreed, it was probably chosen so nobody'd notice.

"contract" It's exactly the weakness after Strike that has me thinking Don wanted out, or Pinnacle wanted to wrap. Either way, Y/N, I'd love to know. TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 00:45, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Addendum

As the above discussion is now one and a half years old, I reopen it—to one point only—this way. In the original post, TREKphiler suggested that the passage he had removed might justify a "Legal issues" section here. As the suit was about the Executioner series and nothing else, I feel discussion of the situation is quite germaine to this article, even more than to the one on Pendleton. However, as I implied in the above (yes, the other guy is me; I was led by the sign up mechanism to put a different name for my talk page signature from my edit history log entries) I no longer have a copy of the magazine with Kraft's interview of Pendleton. It never got mentioned here, but Pendleton told Kraft he totally lost at trial despite having all the necessary evidence. Why Pinnacle subsequently agreed to a settlement so diametrically opposed to the court judgement is beyond me, and Don merely said that it happened. To add such a section here would definitely require getting things precisely right from that interview (a copy of the original War Book would probably help as well). Can someone do that? --Tbrittreid (talk) 22:06, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

I recall the interview he did with Dave (& I may have a copy of the mag buried in storage, which could take a year to find...). The Warbook doesn't say anything to it AFAI recall, but I'll have a look. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 13:12, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

As is mentioned in the above discussion, one of Pendleton's fan letter responses in The War Book does document that he had intended to follow Panic in Philly with a novel set in Sicily; I don't recall if as much is said in the interview, but I doubt it, and it is definitely a relevant point. I am pretty sure that Don did say something directly (however minimal it might have been) about the dispute in a response to another letter there. So I stand by my statement that a copy at hand "would probably help." --Tbrittreid (talk) 20:19, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

References

A.k.a.?

Looking at Klingman & Marinello, I was wondering if there's evidence they, & others, were based (even loosely) on real people. It strikes me Klingman could be Boone Pickens or Ross Perot, Marinello seems to've been inspired by the same person as Vito Corleone, & there are others I suspect might be, too. Thoughts? Did Pendleton ever say anything about it? TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 18:28, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I only just now saw this. I'll admit going in that what I'm going to say isn't exactly on-topic to helping Wikipedia, but I don't know another way to contact you. Here goes:

As ludicrous as it sounds on its face, I strongly suspect that Pendleton was fictionalizing actual events. In #s 2 & 3, set in Los Angeles and environs, Bolan meets family man and LAPD Sgt. Carl Lyons, who ends up on Mack's side. #9, Vegas Vendetta, opens with Bolan hitting a Mafia operation in the Vegas-area desert in the middle of the night for funds, but abandons the cash to rescue a prisoner they have, Carl Lyons, on loan to the feds we're told. He is working with comedian Tommy Anders and a dance troupe the Ranger Girls (Toby Ranger, Smiley Dublin, Sally Palmer and Canadian Georgette Chebleau), all federal agents. Events here eventually uncover some sort of Mob/Communist China connection (across the next two books). Mack subsequently turns up in San Diego (#14), and once the local police realize he's there, they ask the LAPD for a "Bolan expert," and Lyons is sent down (I think his family is even mentioned again here). So far no problem, right? Then we get to #22, and in Hawaii Mack encounters undercover feds pursuing the PRC connection—Anders, Ranger, Dublin and...Lyons! It really appears to have been a more-or-less continuous operation since Vegas (Bolan encountering an on-leave Ranger and a reassigned Chebleau in #19 doesn't really contradict this), which is completely incompatible with Carl's LAPD assignment in #14. He is a fed from here on, ultimately joining Death Squad survivors "Politician" Blancanales and "Gadgets" Schwarz in the unit/spin-off series "Able Team." No mention of his family, at least up to the point I quit reading, which was when Don Pendleton's name stopped appearing after "by..." on the books, and by that time there is no question that pure fiction was being hacked out. It really appears to me that Pendleton simplified the identification of the Mafia's Vegas prisoner as a law enforcement officer by making him Lyons, and got caught when this guy ended up becoming a prominent part of subsequent events after the "real" Lyons was involved in the San Diego action. If Don was simply cranking out pure fiction, the two Carl Lyonses make absolutely no sense. --Tbrittreid (talk) 20:56, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Addition of ISBN from Wikidata

Please note that this article's infobox is retrieving an ISBN from Wikidata currently. This is the result of a change made to {{Infobox book}} as a result of this RfC. It would be appreciated if an editor took some time to review this ISBN to ensure it is appropriate for the infobox. If it is not, you could consider either correcting the ISBN on Wikidata (preferred) or introducing a blank ISBN parameter in the infobox to block the retrieval from Wikidata. If you do review the ISBN, please respond here so other editors don't duplicate your work. This is an automated message to address concerns that this change did not show up on watchlists. ~ Rob^Talk 01:22, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

This article needs a topic section comparing Bolan to Rambo.

I'm sort of joking, but not really. I read Don Pendelton's original 36 or 37 installments, whatever the number was, one by one as they were released. 2600:8801:BE31:D300:4CBA:538B:D24B:9F03 (talk) 19:12, 23 December 2021 (UTC) JJE

Are books still being written in this franchise?

The infobox says "Publication date: 1969–present", but the article text says "464 novels (as of December 2020 when the series ended)". Rob Kelk 15:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)