Talk:The Beekeeper (album)/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Mike Christie (talk · contribs) 10:53, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

I'll review this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:53, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

• Why is it relevant to mention the Bridge Entertainment Group? It seems that despite Amos's frustration she ended up releasing the album through Epic.
• FN 7 says it's "Amos, Tori (March 10, 2005). "Behind the Beekeeper: Words and Music with Tori Amos" (Interview). Interviewed by Mac, Dave." There's no link, no publication named, and this doesn't appear to be media notes. Where did this appear?

  I see now that it's a SirusXM interview. How would a reader of this article obtain this source? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:55, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

• Similarly FN 12 is "Amos, Tori (February 22, 2005). The Beekeeper: A Walk Through the Gardens (documentary)" which is not enough for a reader to follow up -- is this a TV documentary? A released feature film?

  The link is to a YouTube video, but was this a DVD included in the CD release of the album? The YouTube channel appears to be a fan and unofficial, and gives no source information. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:55, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

  It was a DVD included with the limited edition of the album. What would be the best way of going about citing it? Elephantranges (talk) 15:48, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

  There's a template {{cite AV media notes}} that would probably fit what you want. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:35, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

• "the tale of the Melusine": should this be "the tale of Melusine"? In our article it appears this is a individual's name.
• There are multiple uncited sentences throughout the article -- check for paragraphs with no footnotes after the last sentence.

  There are still uncited sentences. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:55, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

• Per MOS:ORDER the external links should be after the references.
• Per WP:RS/PS the New York Post is considered unreliable even for factual reporting. Can you find another source to replace FN 3?
• What makes yessaid.com (Toriphoria) a reliable source? It seems to be a fansite.

Images are correctly licensed. Spotchecks:

• FN 11 cites "The piano riff for the song's verse was written prior to the section's melody or lyrics; Amos has said to have written as many as seventeen potential melodies to accompany the riff before finding the right one to use". Can you quote the supporting text from the source? I don't have access to it.
• FN 9 cites ""Jamaica Inn" features mandolin playing by Mac Aladdin. The song took inspiration from the Daphne du Maurier novel of the same name, and stories from Cornwall locals of ships running aground and being looted by wreckers." Can you quote the supporting text?
• FN 15 cites ""Ireland" exerts a reggae influence and was inspired by writer James Joyce and the music of Bob Marley." Verified.
• FN 14 cites ""Ribbons Undone" was inspired by Amos' daughter Natashya. Prominently featuring Evans' upright bass, "Cars and Guitars" depicts the struggle of communication between a man and a woman in a relationship. The song is written from the point of view of a narrator personifying themselves as the titular objects in an attempt to facilitate conversation between herself and her partner ("it never was the cars and guitars that came between us")." The citation only covers "Cars and Guitars", not "Ribbons Undone"; and there's also no mention in the source of the upright bass.

I'll probably do a couple more spotchecks when you add the missing citations. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:53, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for taking the time to go through all this! Will go through and make the necessary changes in a bit. Elephantranges (talk) 15:57, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: hey, just letting you know all of the problems you noted above have been worked on; will be able to get you the quotes for the spotchecks in a bit. Thanks! Elephantranges (talk) 22:39, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the update -- when you post the spotcheck text I'll do another pass through then. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:04, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Elephantranges, just a reminder about this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:05, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

FN11:

Piece by Piece pages 79-80: "There is a chorus here, clearly. Funny, but this one was inspired by an old folktale that I was reading the other day, the tale of Melusine. I'm just beginning to write the verse lyrics and chorus. The music I've been haunted by while developing the verse for this is a piano riff that I found for less than-oh, I don't know-less than a minute on the tape I was listening to while on the rowing machine. I haven't committed to any final melody to go with this verse. I've got about seventeen that I sing in the shower, and none of them have won "Ms. World" as the melody for 'Marys of the Sea' yet." Elephantranges (talk) 15:39, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

That's fine as the source, but I don't think we should say "Amos has said to have written as many as seventeen potential melodies" (which doesn't make sense as written; presumably it should be either "is said to have written" or "has said she wrote") since she just says she was coming up with melodies in the shower. If you want to include this, I would suggest making "I've got about seventeen that I sing in the shower" a quote. Perhaps 'Amos said that while writing the song, she came up with "about seventeen [melodies] that I sing in the shower" before finding the right one to use'. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:35, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

FN9: The mandolin in "Jamaica Inn" is credited in the liner notes to the album. From the interview:

You discuss the role of archetypes and mythology and your songwriting in Piece By Piece. It seems to me that your songs can almost be footnoted.

Tori: "I love that idea that you experience music through your senses. You experience it through the music itself and you experience a feeling and a meaning. . . . I enjoy that about songwriting. What I think, though, is one of my favorite things is if somebody wants to connect the dots, they do exist for people that like a good caper. If you like cross-referencing, which I sort of love to do, then it exists.

But if you don't enjoy doing that, the songs can work on a purely emotional level, with just relationships. I enjoy that also. "Jamaica Inn" can be about a guy and a girl. And if you don't know anything about Daphne du Maurier's (novel) "Jamaica Inn", if you don't know anything about the wreckers that existed in north Cornwall and the history, you can still experience the song itself as a man and a woman falling out. I like to write on both levels." Elephantranges (talk) 15:42, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Again the source you give is fine, but the sentence about the mandolin should be cited to the liner notes. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:35, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

FN 15: I'm assuming since you said "verified" this means I don't have to do anything?

Yes, that's right. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:35, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

FN 14: Page 186 of Piece by Piece: "...At that announcement I'm surprised, because when she's not Nataysha she likes to be this creature she's invented called "Alice Lily Horsey Ribbons", which has woven itself into 'Ribbons Undone'. I did not use those words in that order, but used and referenced them nonetheless, mainly to capture Tash's spirit." Elephantranges (talk) 15:46, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

OK; I see you've now cited the upright bass and added the Piece by Piece citation for "Ribbons". Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:35, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

I've responded above. My main concern is that there were several bits of text that weren't supported by their citations, in the spotcheck. The spotcheck has to pass for the article to be promoted to GA, so let me know if you want to take another pass through the article and confirm that everything is cited correctly. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:35, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

And "is a bonus track only available on the limited edition DVD" is uncited. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:35, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

"My main concern is that there were several bits of text that weren't supported by their citations, in the spotcheck."

what exactly do you mean by this? Are you referring to the quotes I gave above, or do you mean you need quotes from the other parts of the article that cite Piece by Piece as a source. Thanks Elephantranges (talk) 01:55, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

What I meant was that a spotcheck has to verify that the material in the article is correctly supported by the citations given for it, but the spotchecks I did found some errors/omissions. For FN 9, the source you used didn't mention the mandolin. For FN 14 the citations didn't mention the upright bass and "Ribbons Undone". A spotcheck has to find no (or almost no) problems for the GA to pass, so I'm going to do another spotcheck, and pick some other citations at random to check. So you might want to go through and check that you're confident that there are no more omissions like the ones you've fixed, in order to be confident the spotcheck will pass.

Incidentally, you might find it easier to respond by threading your replies after each point -- it's up to you but you don't have to start your reply below mine. A lot of people find it easier to do a separate reply under each point as it makes it easier to see what's been dealt with. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:20, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

What's left

The review above is a bit confusing, so for clarity I'm going to restate here the outstanding issue. There's only one unfixed issue from above:

• FN 7 says it's "Amos, Tori (March 10, 2005). "Behind the Beekeeper: Words and Music with Tori Amos". SiriusXM The Spectrum (Interview). Interviewed by Mac, Dave." This has been updated since the comments above but it's still not clear what this is. SiriusXm The Spectrum appears to be a radio show of some kind; what was the source you used for this?

And a couple more spotchecks.

• FN 6 cites "In some instances, multiple keyboard instruments would be recorded within the same take; the piano stool was positioned in between Amos' piano and Hammond organ, allowing her to switch between the two without the need for separate takes." Can you quote the supporting text?
• FN 2 cites "The album was a success upon its release, reaching the top five in the US". The linked page doesn't seem to mention The Beekeeper.
• FN 4 cites ""Cars and Guitars" features prominent upright bass playing by Evans". Can you quote the supporting text?
• FN 4 cites "As with all of Amos' albums since Boys for Pele, The Beekeeper was self-produced." Can you quote the supporting text?
• FN 8 cites '"The Power of Orange Knickers" features vocals from Irish singer-songwriter Damien Rice. The track was written as a response to frequent use of the word "terrorist" (particularly after the September 11 attacks) and to those who twist the term for their own personal or political gain. Amos wrote the lyrics with the intention of "undressing" the word and finding a more basic and universal definition for it.' I don't see anything about 9/11 in the source, and I don't think "really crawl inside the definition of it" is enough for us to say "finding a more basic and universal definition for it" -- it's not really clear what Amos is saying there, other that she wants to explore the definition.
• FN 6 cites "In some instances, multiple keyboard instruments would be recorded within the same take; the piano stool was positioned in between Amos' piano and Hammond organ, allowing her to switch between the two without the need for separate takes". Can you quote the supporting text?

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:34, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Behind the Beekeeper

As for this FN, I can't seem to find a reliable online source that has this interview so I’m going to just replace it with another source that has the same info Elephantranges (talk) 00:02, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Continued spotchecks

• FN4 – Jon Evans is listed in the album's liner notes as playing upright bass on tracks 4 and 10. I felt it was appropiate to note that for "Cars and Guitars" specifically as his bassline during the verses is one of the main hooks of the song/is part of the main identity of the song's music. And as for the album being self-produced, once again the liner notes just say "produced by Tori Amos". If you want an additional source saying that she has produced the rest of her post-Under the Pink albums as well, I’m sure I can find that.

  Yes, if it's not in the source you give we need another source. The same thing goes for "prominent" -- it's fine to use the line notes to say he played the upright bass, but "prominent" is a critical opinion and needs a source. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:22, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

• FN2 – When citing from Billboard, the link always directs you to the artist's Hot 100 history, even if you copied the link from, say, the Billboard 200 page (as I intended). Clicking the drop down menu and selecting "Billboard 200" shows this album as having a peak of No. 5.

  That works; I figured it might be something like that. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:22, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Will have more for you later Elephantranges (talk) 00:03, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

I can't promote this to GA unless a spotcheck comes back clean, or with only very minor issues. Re the issue with FN4 above, can you check the rest of the article to make sure that everything in the article is sourced? I see there's quite a bit sourced to liner notes; if there are other things like the issue with "prominent" I would have to fail this. I'd rather you checked first so when I do the next round of spotchecks we don't risk having to fail the article. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:22, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Elephantranges, nudging you on this -- I can go ahead with another spotcheck but unless it comes back clean I would fail the article. Do you want to go through and do a check first? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:49, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Oh yeah definitely let me go through first. I apologize, I’m on a trip right now so I’ve been a bit busy. I’ll let you know when everything is good to go. Elephantranges (talk) 03:37, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Hi, Elephantranges, just checking in -- let me know when you're ready for me to take another look. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:38, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Elephantranges, checking in again -- if you're too busy to work on this, should I fail it and let you come back to it later in the year when you have more time? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:19, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, close it for now. A few of the refs need an overhaul and I’m struggling to find the source for the “A Piano” liner notes. Sorry for taking this long Elephantranges (talk) 21:47, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

OK, I'll close it. Best of luck with it next time round. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:42, 27 April 2023 (UTC)