Talk:Tales of the Jedi (TV series)

Title

Should this be Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi (TV series)? Star Wars.com says "Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi", but the tweet announcing the logo only used "Tales of the Jedi" (and most media seems to be using that). - Favre1fan93 (talk) 22:32, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

I had the same question, usually the Twitter announcements have lined up with StarWars.com. TheFutonCritic also just uses Tales of the Jedi but it looks like they copied that from the tweet. - adamstom97 (talk) 23:14, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Most articles seem to be using a mix. Some in headers, some just at ends of articles, and some using both Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi and Tales of the Jedi in article. WP:COMMONNAME? If we did decide to move, I still think the comic series should stay at Tales of the Jedi (comics) with Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi going still to the new disambiguation page. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 23:24, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

I think we can stick with this as COMMONNAME until we get confirmation (once it is on Disney+ we should know for sure). And I agree about the disambig. - adamstom97 (talk) 23:25, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

This is a common problem for all Star Wars branded content. Even just looking at the logo, it looks like they are just branding the show for recognition. Similar discussions just took place on Skeleton Crew, and maybe a local Star Wars wikiproject essay can generate some recommendations. The comic technically had the Star Wars branding as well, much like the Ahsoka novel/TV series issues. This goes all the way to Empire Strikes Back. Obviously there is the common usage is sources, but sometimes, it seems like the branding is inseparable from a particular title. Visions, for example. I’m not a total SW nut, but I can’t really think of much content that isn’t slapped with the brand. Tales of the Jedi seemingly carries some of it's own recognition, but it can always be moved again as needed. -2pou (talk) 23:30, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

But with the other series it is clear what the official name is, separate from the logos. This is the first new series where we have contradictory evidence from Lucasfilm. - adamstom97 (talk) 23:32, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Season 2 will be known as "Tales of the Empire"

New season has just been announced. Unclear how the article should now be named because it is all part of the same anthology series. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:38, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

That article doesn't say second season, sounds like a new similar series, so be a new article similar to this with links between them? Indagate (talk) 17:49, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

But it does call Tales of the Jedi the first season and it says "the next installment in the critically-acclaimed series", so that sounds like it is a second season rather than a new series. I think we just leave the article as is for now and add the S2 details. In the future we may get a new name to refer to both seasons that we could use for this article, similar to what Deadline says: "the second installment of the Tales franchise". - adamstom97 (talk) 17:52, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps Star Wars: Tales might be appropriate? - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:57, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

We would need a better source, or at least more sources supporting that becoming the common name. - adamstom97 (talk) 21:31, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

The fact that the official press release is where the "second installment of the "Tales" series" wording comes from is interesting. We might be able to use that for a move to Star Wars: Tales. - adamstom97 (talk) 19:05, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I saw that wording in the Gizmodo article, but couldn't actually find the release (it is on Disney's media site too FYI). Now I guess the question becomes is "Star Wars: Tales" the most appropriate title? I think it is, because simply using "Tales" would need a disambiguation, and this provides a WP:NATURAL one. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:11, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree. - adamstom97 (talk) 19:53, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm happy to give it another day or two to see if any other editors have thoughts. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 20:39, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I'd be fine with Star Wars: Tales. That title seems to fit with what had been raised in this discussion.Historyday01 (talk) 21:39, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm going to boldly make this move. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:40, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Restored title. Please open a RM if you believe this is the the correct title. I'll note though that Disney+ has two different series listing for these so this seems like a made up Wiki title. Gonnym (talk) 10:41, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Gonnym, this move was made months ago with talk page consensus and has not been contested in that time, you should not have just moved it back without discussion. There is no requirement to use RM. - adamstom97 (talk) 10:43, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

3 editors talking in a private discussion among themselves and waiting 2 days to get consensus is not consensus, nor is it following policy or guidelines and is not even what the official Disney+ listing calls it. The move was bad. Start a RM if you feel this is correct. I oppose the above move. Gonnym (talk) 11:58, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

I have restored this article title. @Gonnym:, not everything needs to have an RM, and the consensus above was formed in a valid way. If you disagree, then let's start a new discussion (or continue here in this thread) to resolve, but restoring the old title was not the solution. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:43, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

The move was without a discussion that was published and lasted two days. That's nowhere near how it should. A move can be opposed to even months later, which is why we have WP:RM/T. Any discussion should start from the name it was before the controversial change. Gonnym (talk) 16:58, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

@Indagate, Adamstom.97, Historyday01, and Gonnym: courtesy ping as I've started an RM on the matter below. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:27, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Shorts

Shouldn't the introductory paragraph say "American Television shorts"? Television series would refer to full fledged TV series about 30 minutes to 1 hour long. Shorts refers to those less than 10 minutes. JEDIMASTER2008 (talk) 01:23, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

It is still a series, but we should note that it is a series of shorts rather than a series of episodes. - adamstom97 (talk) 07:36, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 2 July 2024

Tales of the Jedi (TV series) → Star Wars: Tales – Since this move made nearly three months ago has been objected to, here is an RM. I personally don't agree with the need as consensus was reached on the matter. Never the less, this anthology series had its first installment released as (formally) Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi (commonly Tales of the Jedi) in October 2022, with it announced in April 2023 that it would get a second season (wording used by media outlets, though the quote from Filoni was "Tales of the Jedi was so fun the first time, I decided to do some more.") Subsequently, it was announced a year later in April 2024 that this second "season" was a new "installment", Star Wars: Tales of the Empire (commonly Tales of the Empire). This press release shows the use of both formal names as well as the key quote in my view (and the determination of the previous consensus) that Tales of the Empire was the second installment of the "Tales" series. Thus, an appropriate name to address this anthology series considering the formal name would be Star Wars: Tales, which provides a WP:NATURAL name. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:25, 2 July 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 17:46, 9 July 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 05:42, 21 July 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 10:39, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support as nom and the previous uncontroversial/WP:BOLDMOVE consensus to this title previously. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:26, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

  WP:RMCOMMENT, you shouldn't be adding an additional support as your RM is your support. Gonnym (talk) 09:13, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support per nom. I don't think every title change that gets an undiscussed move necessitates grounds for a full RM just to "officially" signify past consensus from a discussion, though here we are. Star Wars: Tales is a more official title for this series as has been brought up and proven already and it provides a WP:NATURAL disambiguation. This title was not contested until @Gonnym: moved it without first adequately consulting the established consensus at this talk, and it should not have been moved by them in the first place without much discussion beforehand. Trailblazer101 (talk) 18:54, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
• Support per nom. Gonnym should not have moved the page back (twice!) without gaining consensus first. - adamstom97 (talk) 20:10, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. A two day discussion that was not publicized anywhere is not a real discussion nor is it consensus. While bold moves are allowed, once objected, they must go through RM. It's a bit concerning that a small group of well-intentioned editors have seemingly created their own personal fiefdom in a group of articles. Regarding the issue, part of the reason WP:CRYSTAL (a policy) exists, is that some things that are planned are eventually changed by the time that they actually happen. Take this an example, Favre gives this as a source for the page move. That article was published a month before Tales of the Empire premiered. When it did, it did not join Tales of the Jedi on Disney+ as a new season but instead received a new entry. IMDb and Wookieepedia entries are also different between the two shows (see Tales of the Jedi (TV series)#External links for the links). This is a clear example of how jumping to conclusions has created on en.wiki an incorrect title (and article) that does not match the real-world situation. I'd advise anyone closing it to remember that consensus is not based on counting votes. To comment on one of the above (as one vote did not add anything), Star Wars: Tales is a more official title for this series as has been brought up and proven already and it provides a WP:NATURAL disambiguation. not it hasn't and WP:NATURAL has nothing to do with two different series sharing an article, nor do we shy away from "(TV series)" in disambiguation and look for other unnatural options. Gonnym (talk) 09:10, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

There is no requirement to publicise discussions elsewhere, especially when they appear to be uncontroversial. You are the one who made a bold edit when you decided to revert the move several months later with no discussion, and you violated WP:BRD when you re-reverted after your bold move was undone. The article needs to be restored until a new consensus is formed. - adamstom97 (talk) 09:42, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I would just like to note that IMDb and Wookipedia are not reliable sources and are generated by users, so those cannot be taken as concrete evidence to support something without a third-party reliable source (which Gonnym has not supplied through all of this for their rationale). Since other wikis were brought up, the Disney wiki also uses "Star Wars: Tales" as the sole series title, though, again, those wikis are all unreliable and we should not base our site off of those. These are clearly not two different series (and no source was provided to support that). See the third paragraph in the Development section which verifies Empire being developed as the second season (or rather, at the very least, the second set of shorts in the Tales series), which was agreed upon per the talk discussion above, so there is consensus for that change (not the most recent ones). I will note that how content is placed on Disney+ does not solely determine what it actually is, and that service has a tendency to change how such content is even arranged. While I still want to assume good faith, I'm starting to have slight WP:I don't like it concerns here with repeated violations of procedures in the name of being right. The WP:STATUSQUO of this article being for both collections of shorts under the cited title Star Wars: Tales should have remained in place and not been altered before a proactive discussion took place. Plus, the way this article currently stands with its title is erroneous and incorrect for the contents of the article.

To bring in some additional sources for context, on Disney+, Jedi is called a "a 6 episode event" while Empire is "a six episode journey", while StarWars.com also called Jedi the first season when the second was announced. Space.com also called Jedi the "predecessor" of Empire. Contrasting this, IGN, Collider, and Screen Rant both say Jedi season 2 became Empire, not that is somehow no longer the second season. No sources have been provided that explicitly state Empire is not season 2, and we should not be changing this article based on the opinion of one lone editor. If need be, it may be a good compromise to alter mentions of this being a single series to being a collection of animated shorts as some sources provided have called it, if the season ambiguity post-release does not suffice other's concerns. Trailblazer101 (talk) 21:13, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

@Gonnym: if you have issue with Star Wars: Tale as a "main" landing page for what is clearly an anthology-style series of distinctly named "seasons", what is your suggestion? There is not enough information in my opinion to justify articles at both Tales of the Jedi (TV series) and Tales of the Empire given until the Empire title was revealed, it was assumed we would be getting Tales of the Jedi season 2. I will note that all relevant article titles for these two names were redirected here after the subsequent move. I don't see how the fact that each are their own entry on Disney+ has any relevance to how we collect and present the info here. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Of the 7 links Trailblazer cited above, 2 Disney+ links I can't access (geo-location blocked probably), 4 links are from April before Empire was released and one is from Space.com which isn't a TV related website so I highly doubt they did any real journalism here and probably copy/pasted information they saw online. @Favre, clearly an anthology-style series of distinctly named "seasons", but it isn't. As pointed below American Horror Story is an anthology series with seasons. It appears like that on Disney+ and Hulu. Tales of the Jedi and Tales of the Empire do not. They might share similar title structure and format, but Disney+ decided they are unique shows. Why? Not for us to care or speculate (WP:OR). The shows are currently two distinct shows and should have two distinct articles. Gonnym (talk) 06:42, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Additional relist, to allow discussion of what name is used by reliable and independent sources BilledMammal (talk) 05:42, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: Is there any coverage that explicitly uses Star Wars: Tales? The press release and the pulled quote, the second installment of the "Tales" series, does not use this title and instead just use the word Tales by itself. That is not the same as the source saying this series is called Star Wars: Tales. I just think there needs to be more solid evidence that this is a name that is being used for this show. Aoba47 (talk) 18:40, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

  @Aoba47: I don't believe so, no. But if you go simply on Tales, disambiguation of some sort would be needed, and one I don't thing would fully be helpful or intuitive over "Star Wars: Tales", which I noted in my move post is the OFFICIAL/formal names of each series and thus creates an easier/NATURAL disambiguation for the title. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 14:58, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

  @Favre1fan93: Thank you for the response. Apologies for being unclear in my original comment. I was not suggesting that this should be moved to Tales. I was more so just wondering if Star Wars: Tales was ever used in a more official capacity. Thank you for answering that. This is a weird situation (even in the context of anthology shows), but I am uncertain about moving the article to a title that has never been used officially. I wonder if Tales of the Jedi and Tales of the Empire should be treated as two different shows and have two separate Wikipedia articles? The press release refers to Empire as the second installment rather than the second season. I am not sure if it matters, but StarWars.com lists Jedi and Empire as two separate shows (here) and not two seasons of the same series. Aoba47 (talk) 16:47, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

  Sorry for misinterpreting your question. Given they are still, in a way, "seasons" of the overarching anthology series, there are similarities between both, and I personally don't believe there is enough content to justify two separate articles when one currently covers it all and is a good length and size, I think this needs to be the "main" article a la American Horror Story for the various individual AHS "seasons"/installments that exists. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:50, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

  No need to apologize. I could have been clearer in my original comment. I actually was thinking about American Horror Story while looking through the article and this discussion. What confuses me is that Disney is seemingly treating Jedi and Empire more like separate things, like with Disney+ having separate listings for each (here and here) without a main series title. I contrast that with how American Horror Stories and Feud are represented as a single entity with multiple seasons on Hulu (here and here) and both have a clearer main series title.

  This press release for Tales of the Empire does not even mention Tales of the Jedi. This article from The Hollywood Reporter references Empire as a "follow-up" to Jedi; I read differently as a second season of a main series, but I think the wording is vague. It is weird how unclear Disney is with the branding and overall presentation for this. I do not think Star Wars: Tales would work without evidence of it being officially used (á la American Horror Story and Feud), but I do have an alternative in mind either. Aoba47 (talk) 18:01, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

  I wonder if Tales of the Jedi and Tales of the Empire should be treated as two different shows and have two separate Wikipedia articles, yes, they should. Gonnym (talk) 18:28, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Final relist, per previous relisting comment BilledMammal (talk) 10:39, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support somewhat due to poor alternatives, but staying at the current title is not really acceptable, at least in the current state of things. Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi and the Empire seems a bit unruly. Tales (Star Wars) maybe would address the format of its use in RS, but I dunno... feels weird. It's odd because I don't think that the two should really be split, making a good name tough. I am normally an advocate of WP:SUMMARYSTYLE since Wikipedia is WP:NOTPAPER, but not paper also tells asks us if it can be done, should it be done? I am unconvinced a split is beneficial in this case. The content for just six, very short episodes, and a list of songs is the bulk of splittable content. Not all of it, but the bulk of it. I think this is more like Hellsing and List of Hellsing episodes, which are made up of multiple distinctly named series and/or runs, yet covered comprehensively in one place (I say one meaning the entire franchise, or one single list of episodes). Another example would be if one wants info on Rilakkuma's Theme Park Adventure, they would find it under Rilakkuma and Kaoru. Splitting Rilakkuma's Theme Park Adventure seems ridiculous to me, but I could be wrong... In those situations though, the first series title is broad enough to easily include subsequent series, whereas this gets so specific.

  My concern becomes WP:CANYOUREADTHIS (ironic since WP:Article size in general gives more weight to splitting)? Are we really helping readers sending them to two different pages where one page has a lot of development information and the other page is limited to one or two sentences of development information without additional context just so we can have two separate episode lists (and I guess soundtrack lists if readers really care about those)? It seems like it would be unbalanced. And if we do provide that additional context that might have gone missing, it would seem to me like we are starting to WP:OVERLAP too much in a seemingly unnecessary WP:CONTENTFORK and doing additional disservice to a reader that just wants differences, yet is forced to sift through a lot of repeat information. Seems like things are getting hung up on technicalities. Do we need to call this a TV series page? Why not call it a franchise page covering the two? I don't know if that's actually better since the name issue remains, but the point being that it would allow comprehensive coverage without a drill down to 1.5 separate pages.

  Now I say things like unconvinced and seemingly because I could be convinced, but this is a RM, and convincing me would be more of a split discussion, which I currently oppose for reasons above, but could be swayed if someone were to sandbox it and show that separate articles (forget notability, I know notability would be satisfied) would actually make reader navigation easier while maintaining comprehensive coverage. Procedurally, I !vote move, propose split, sandbox it to show the benefits, move back, if necessary. -2pou (talk) 17:53, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose - Per below. No anthology TV series titled Star Wars: Tales appears to exist, although there is a franchise of Star Wars limited series that primary sources refer to as "Tales" encompassing both Tales of the Jedi and Tales of the Empire. If these shows remain under the same article, then calling it Star Wars: Tales would be synthesis.

From official sources, we have Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi, Star Wars: Tales of the Empire, and the overall anthology franchise, which is simply Tales. Darkknight2149 04:17, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Two separate shows

Tales of the Jedi and Tales of the Empire should be separate articles. Both the official Star Wars site and the distributor (Disney Plus) regard these as distinct limited series. Likewise, the press release in the Futon Critic source refers to Empire as a follow up series to Jedi, rather than a second season and there's no basis in the source for a TV show called Star Wars: Tales. Rather, the press release mentions a cluster of shows called "Tales" and it appears to be an umbrella term for the various Tales limited shows. From what I can tell, the concept of a single series called Star Wars: Tales is synthesis. Darkknight2149 03:52, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

In addition to the WP:OR concern, I should also mention that including both of these shows in a single article could become convoluted should Jedi or Empire receive a second season. Darkknight2149 03:57, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

The closest thing I can find to a source regarding Empire as a second season is this article, and even it reads a lot like "Like the first season [of Tales of the Jedi], [this show] will..." If these two shows remain under a single article, then the title should be adjusted to something like Tales (Star Wars) (since Star Wars: Tales isn't mentioned) and the lead should be reworked to reflect that it's a franchise of shows. Darkknight2149 04:12, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

There isn't really enough content for a split to make sense here, even if there was consensus that they are separate series. I would support keeping this as a "franchise" article in that case. However, I still think the train of thought that led to the single series consensus (#Season 2 will be known as "Tales of the Empire") makes sense. - adamstom97 (talk) 06:28, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if there isn't enough content. These aren't the same show. If there isn't enough content that might be an issue with WP:Notability. DK is correct here. Gonnym (talk) 06:31, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Are you suggesting we split a perfectly fine article into two very small articles and then potentially delete those for notability reasons? That is nonsense. - adamstom97 (talk) 06:36, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm saying that your WP:OR in mixing these together goes against our policy. Gonnym (talk) 06:53, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Since primary sources regard them as different shows, we need one to unambiguously regard them as the same show, which I'm not seeing in the above discussions. If they're not independently notable enough for an article split, then reworking it as a Tales (Star Wars) article and discussing the franchise of shows that Empire is the second installment of appears necessary given the available information. Darkknight2149 14:38, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

We do have primary sources that support them being the same show, or at least two installments of one thing, and that is where the name Tales comes from as well. - adamstom97 (talk) 06:39, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Can you provide a link? As mentioned above, the primary sources linked don't support them being the same show, but installments in a franchise of limited series simply titled Tales. The title Star Wars: Tales appears to be a synthesis of Tales, Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi, and Star Wars: Tales of the Empire. Darkknight2149 21:38, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it is certain that the sources support them being a franchise of limited series, just possible. There is also the fact that Tales of the Jedi was explicitly renewed for a second season and Tales of the Empire is that season. There is no argument about that. - adamstom97 (talk) 08:28, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm seeing sources that it was renewed for a second season, but not for Tales of the Empire being the second season. "Tales franchise" is a term used by Lucasfilm and Disney distributes both shows as Season 1. Even if Tales of the Empire was intended to be Season 2 in 2023 (which we would need verification for), things can also change from announcement to release. Darkknight2149 18:06, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Here is the breakdown:

• Tales of the Jedi was renewed for a second season in April 2023 (source) and scheduled for release in 2024 (source])
• Tales of the Empire was announced in April 2024 with a release date of May 2024
• The official press release described Tales of the Empire as "the second installment of the Tales series, stylistically follow[ing] 2022's critically acclaimed Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi."
• StarWars.com described Tales of the Jedi as the "first season" and Tales of the Empire as "the next installment in the critically-acclaimed series"
• The official trailer shows the Tales of the Jedi logo turning into the Tales of the Empire logo
• Commentary at the time of the announcement / trailer release widely discussed the fact that Tales of the Jedi season 2 had become / been replaced by Tales of the Empire

So it is clear that Tales of the Empire is in the place of the second season of Tales of the Jedi that was announced in April 2023. The question is, is it still the second season of one series that just happens to have its own name (which is not uncommon for animated series), or is it a completely separate series that has replaced Tales of the Jedi season 2? If we just look at the StarWars.com source I think it is hard to argue against the former since it described Tales of the Jedi as the first season and Tales of the Empire as the next installment in a single series. That is how the original consensus for both being one series was formed in the section above. But the press release supersedes StarWars.com and I can see the argument that "the second installment of the Tales series, stylistically follow[ing] 2022's critically acclaimed Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi" indicates a whole separate series. The two being kept separate on Disney+ adds weight to that argument, but I also think the press release can be interpreted as slightly awkward wording that still aligns with the StarWars.com source.

If we do decide that they are installments in a franchise rather than seasons, I still support keeping them in this article and restructuring it into a franchise article. That is because they would be very bare, small articles if split which would be hard to justify, and they work well together due to their shared development/production history, shared structure and style, etc. - adamstom97 (talk) 18:53, 10 August 2024 (UTC)