Talk:Symphony No. 5 (Sibelius)

First Movement

Why does it have a separate page? This should defintely be incorporated into this article and expanded for the other movements. Centy – – 23:16, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

New edit to second movement

I'm not really sure the feel is all lively & cheerful (especially near the end of the movement), and I am especially not convinced that this is variations on a theme...I have always thought of it as being variations on a rhythm. Anyone else feel this way? --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 12:48, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Of course, this is not exactly all "cheerful" or "lively". But some dark mood appears suddenly. More clear is that it is a variation of a flute theme.(Addaick 14:12, 27 July 2007 (UTC))

I'm afraid I disagree. A "theme" is a melodic idea of some length (generally several measures) and with a lot of character..."memorability" if you like. The music in this movement does not do that. The material Sibelius is working with is the very distinctive rhythm. I also feel that designations of "mood" are very risky in the context of an encyclopedia article. You obviously feel this is a lovely & cheerful movement; I disagree, and this disagreement is perfectly OK. But the existence of that disagreement means that an encyclopedia article should steer clear of such descriptions. --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 17:27, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean that there is a different meaning behind the "cheerful" and "lively" "mood" and that meaning is risky?(Addaick 14:57, 29 July 2007 (UTC))

I'm afraid I do not understand you question. What I mean is, I do not hear the movement as being cheerful & lively and I don't think it's safe to describe the movement with those terms. Is that what you want to know? --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 18:41, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Do you say that the whole movement is in a sad mood? I never expect this.(Addaick 01:49, 31 July 2007 (UTC))

So much in music depends not only on the listener but also on the performer's interpretation. It may sound "cheerful and lovely" to you and me, but if we say that we risk drawing one of those annoying "original research" tags. We need to find a citation of a famous conductor or critic describing the mood of the piece this way, even if we have to dig through liner note fluff to get at it. As you're aware, it's a tightrope balance to walk between excessively theoretical writing and fluff. Volunteer Sibelius Salesman 18:13, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to ask each of you who you are hearing it played by. Me, I have a CD of Lorin Maazel conducting the Pittsburgh. It also has No. 4. Jindřichův Smith 00:04, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I apologise my last comment above. I admit that there is some sad mood especially the enter of French Horn. But I don't expect that the whole movement is in sad mood. (Addaick 11:46, 25 August 2007 (UTC))

After the Fourth Symphony, even the Valse Triste could sound cheerful. I too have Lorin Maazel, but conducting der Wiener Philharmoniker. But I prefer Sir John Barbirolli conducting the Hallé Orchestra on a disc together with the Seventh. By the way, when is this article getting a discography? Anton Mravcek 20:30, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Don't quite see what the recordings you know have to do with the article. But anyway, there are very few classical piece discographies that I've seen, so if you want one, be bold and make one. The one for the 7th symphony is great, though it's potentially a bit out of the scope of the encyclopedia, if one gets down to the gist of it. I brought it up in a couple places and it hasn't been 'hit', so it does set president to make one for this as well. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 20:54, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

The recordings can shed some light on why some of us insist on a certain mood of a piece, which is exactly the point of disagreement between Addaick and Wspencer: whether or not the article should talk about mood. Anton Mravcek 23:35, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Comments about your favourite recordings are welcome, but our topic is talking about the mood in the second movement. Please also give out ideas about this. Thanks. (Addaick 09:20, 26 August 2007 (UTC))

Great composers such as Sibelius rarely write anything that is simply “lovely and cheerful.” Their music almost always contains levels of complexity beyond a simple emotion. I think we should write a technical description of the second movement and leave interpretations of the music’s mood to the listener. --S.dedalus 21:20, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with mentioning the mood, provided it's not iriginal research. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 21:41, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

The mood in any piece of music is created primarily by the listener. No one interpretation can be said to unequivocally be correct. If Sibelius himself had said that the mood was “happy,” that would be pretty definitive. Otherwise no one source can claim a definitive answer. For instance in the Shostakovich Symphony No. 3 the mood is on the surface up-beat, but is sometimes interpreted as a parody of celebration. Besides, the “Second movement” section in this article does not site its sources at all. Perhaps it could be replaced with something a little more useful for the reader? --S.dedalus 22:10, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes. By comparing that to the first movement, the content of the second movement is simply too short, I winder why there is a very detail description on the first but not in the second. Hope Wspencer11 can look at these comments by us. He is that user which concern about the mood. (Addaick 02:20, 28 August 2007 (UTC))

I think S.dedalus makes a great point about the mood being created by the listener. The first time I heard Karajan's recording of Bruckner's 3rd I was completely unimpressed. I listened to the same recording the next day and I was completely amazed that this recording had so fallen flat for me the day before. I still think it's a great recording of the Bruckner.

However, before the listener can create his own mood, the performers are an important intermediate step. Compare young Bernstein's recording of Mahler's 5th to old Bernstein's recording of Mahler's 5th. The former is (to me at least) quite dramatic and powerfully tragic, while the latter is just plodding and boring. Anton also makes a great point, about how pairing on the disc can affect the listener (if they choose to hear the whole disc in order). Volunteer Sibelius Salesman 19:59, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry not to have been part of this discussion for a while, since I apparently started it, but I have to weigh in to emphasize my belief that we keep discussions of mood to a minimum. It's just way too subjective an approach to have in an encyclopedia. This is also not a music theory journal or an esthetics seminar, but a general-interest encyclopedia. This is why I also think the first movement portion of the article is way out of hand. Later. --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 18:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Glad to see that you have back to the dicussion. If I am right, your are concerning about the detail of movement is but not in second and third movement. If so, you may refer CenturionZ 1. I have gone through the History section, the details of movements are most likely edited by this user. (Addaick 05:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC))

Beach Baby

So, I'm guessing whatever WPedian wrote that the quotation in "Beach Baby" is "too fleeting or too approximate to be other than coincidental" did not listen to the end of the song. At the end, the band cuts out and french horns (not heard until now in the song) play the swan call. It's totally unambiguous. Editing. --75.83.153.92 (talk) 19:29, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

The theme is also subsequently taken up by the trumpet, as in the Sibelius. --75.83.153.92 (talk) 19:30, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

The finale

In Finland, the symphony and especially its confident finale are often connected with the country winning independence in 1917 - around the time when Sibelius was revising it. The 1915 version doesn't sound near as assured or grand in its outlines and details. The swan-call motif and the six final, measured tutti chords do suggest an expression of triumph against adversity, making the work a counterpart of the earlier Finlandia.83.254.151.33 (talk) 06:36, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Duration

The very first sentence of the article states "... three movements that typically lasts around 33 minutes" while the Structure section states that "the duration is approximately 32 minutes". Perhaps this is nitpicking, but shouldn't these two timings be consistent (if not redundant)? Raaronson (talk) 13:52, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Other pieces quoting the swan-call

The Reprise from Spirited Away quotes it. [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.231.147.166 (talk) 17:27, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Perpetual Change by Yes is fairly close to the theme too (in the verses and guitar solo), only in a slightly different key. 83.254.135.89 (talk) 17:11, 18 November 2018 (UTC)