Talk:Suicide by pilot

Malaysian Air Flight 370

Nobody has any clue why this plane crashed. Listing it here because pilot suicide is a "possible theory" is bad practice (especially since it's a theory that has zero evidence). It just shouldn't be on the list at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.70.182.5 (talk) 15:40, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

As of June 2019, respected aviation expert William Langewiesche has concluded that Captain Shah, either killed or incapacitated his co-pilot before depressurising the cabin to kill everyone on board.

The wiki should be updated to reflect this solid theory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.15.142.163 (talk) 05:11, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

"Respected aviation expert William Langewiesche?" Did you read his piece on the two 737 Max crashes? Where he blames the pilots?? He is a complete Boeing shill. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:100D:B006:CE1A:F03A:7461:E8FE:806B (talk) 22:59, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Pilot suicide is the only theory that covers the facts. In my opinion the entry should not only be kept, but upgraded from “possible pilot suicide” to “suspected pilot suicide.” 2600:1700:5658:2490:5C12:18A7:D82F:3C70 (talk) 04:59, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

I absolutely agree. There is overwhelming evidence for a pilot suicide. It is absolutely ridicoulus or ignoring the facts to say that nobody has an idea as to why the plance crashed. Hopefully the wreckage can be found by mid-2022 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:120B:C3F1:A630:6404:4EE5:4C27:9B10 (talk) 00:55, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Different types of suicidal flights

It is truly disgusting to lump together in this article the heroic tokkotai (kamikaze) and selbstopfer pilots, who saw Tokyo, Hamburg, Dresden cities burn in anglo-saxon carpet-bombings and tried to protect their compatriots from such barbarism, with life insurance fraudsters who called themselves pilots, etc. 78.131.76.158 (talk) 22:05, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

I won't call it heroic. If you are on the receiving end, it might be bad. If you are from Japan, it's heroic. However, I agree that it's an entirely different phenomenon. We are talking about the situations in which the pilot committed suicide while bringing all passengers with him (i.e. a murder-suicide). In war, there can't be "murders." Killing enemy combatants is expected. If an angry Japanese pilot deliberately crashed his plane onto his commander's car, then you can put it here. Otherwise, I think it can neither be called "suicide" nor "murder." The thing is, when people come to this article, they aren't expecting Kamikazees and terrorists. They are thinking about events like MH370. 2601:646:8881:A720:882A:1532:2DFF:5AA3 (talk) 11:02, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

The article for Kamikaze opens with this (emphasis added): "'... were a part of the Japanese Special Attack Units of military aviators who flew suicide attacks for the Empire of Japan against Allied naval vessels in the closing stages of the Pacific campaign of World War II, intending to destroy warships more effectively than with conventional air attacks." A suicide for your country's war effort is still a suicide. The concepts of "shame" and "disgust" may be difficult to address in this article. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:43, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes, but it shouldn't be an article about general suicides. For example, someone piloting his own aircraft into the ocean alone is committing suicide. But it's not that different from someone jumping from the Imperial State building. The only difference is that the former happens to possess an aircraft. The question is not about semantics. People coming to this article come here for aviation disasters in which pilots bring the whole planes down. They don't come here for terrorist attacks. They don't come here for Kamikazees. 71.202.169.137 (talk) 23:50, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

We need to distinguish this article from vehicular suicides. You can say Kamikazee is a form of vehicular suicides. 9/11 is a form of vehicular suicides. However, they aren't suicide by pilot since they are not civilian pilots who are employed to carry passengers. The thing is, aviation disaters involving civilian pilots is a phenomenon on its own that needs to be distinguished from Kamikazees and terrorism. 71.202.169.137 (talk) 23:57, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

You can say all pilot suicides are a form of vehicular suicides, because an aircraft is a vehicle. I'd just expect to see less detail in vehicular suicide and a link to this article. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:55, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Don't you see the fact that civilian pilots deliberately crashing their own planes due to depression or mental health issues is a vastly different phenomenon from kamikazes and terrorist attacks like 9/11? If you don't, there's no point in arguing.71.202.169.137 (talk) 00:17, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

I really didn't expect this article to cover kamikaze attacks and terrorism. Suicide isn't the primary purpose of those acts; killing other people is. One's own death is considered the price of performing such an attack, not an end in itself; if there was an even easier way to kill people (or cause destruction) in larger numbers without killing themselves, the attacker would have done that instead. Hijackers whose primary aim is to kill others shouldn't be included. These are merely suicide attacks. WP Ludicer (talk) 19:30, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Inclusion criteria proposal

Although I'll admit to being a guilty party, to prevent future article bloat per per WP:NOTEVERYTHING, I propose to limit this article to incidents that have received significant WP:RS coverage other than government aviation accident reports. Since every single modern fatality accident in most Western countries typically earns a government accident report, the existence of a report implicating pilot suicide doesn't necessarily establish notability, per WP:ROUTINE and WP:DEPTH. Thoughts? Carguychris (talk) 17:12, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Craig D. Button

There is a valid hypothesis that Craig Button was not a suicide, see Talk:Craig D. Button § Possible alternative cause. Yes, it is not anywhere the majority opinion, and the RS has yet to be definitively located, but IMO it is plausible and enough to change his category from 'Believed to be suicide' to 'Possible suicide'. Thoughts? Tfdavisatsnetnet (talk) 16:26, 29 October 2023 (UTC)