Talk:St Matthias Islands

Requested move 23 September 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. (non-admin closure) Cwmhiraeth (talk) 09:32, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

---

St Matthias Islands → Saint Matthias Islands – Island and archipelago names with "Saint" should be spelled out, not as "St" or "St." We have Saint Lucia and others. Sagotreespirit (talk) 10:18, 23 September 2019 (UTC)--Relisting. Cúchullain ^t/c 18:26, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

• Move per nom.--Darwinek (talk) 19:54, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose but would not object to relisting. Cities and other entities follow common English-language usage in reliable sources – see St. Louis but Saint Petersburg. (Wikipedia:Naming conventions (clergy)#Name of a saint as part of an article title) No evidence has yet been provided as to usage. Andrewa (talk) 16:16, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
• Support WP:COMMONALITY prevents collision between dialects that have become lax and dropped the period from those that still enforce the use of the period -- 67.70.33.184 (talk) 08:41, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
  • It's not laxness. We've just come to the conclusion that it makes no sense whatsoever to use a full stop after the 't' when the bit that's removed is actually the middle of the word ("S't" would be accurate; "St." is senseless). And in any case, they're in the Commonwealth, which generally does drop the full stop. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:25, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. Commonwealth usage in general and common usage for these islands in particular is against the move. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:27, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Discussion

I'm glad this has been relisted. But the nomination seems based entirely on a personal opinion that names with "Saint" should be spelled out. This is at odds with the applicable naming convention (quote and wikilink given above) that we go by usage. And no further arguments have yet been advanced. We can't move it on that basis. Andrewa (talk) 02:37, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

(non-admin closure)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 7 April 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved per WP:TITLEVAR. (closed by non-admin page mover) Calidum 21:39, 23 April 2022 (UTC) Edit per discussion on my talk page: WP:TITLECHANGES is instructive here. Where both forms are acceptable, there is no need to change the title absent a good reason to do so. Calidum 13:26, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

---

St Matthias Islands → St. Matthias Islands – St should be St. per WP:MOS. Abbreviations should have periods following them. Also, in the academic literature, St. Matthias is mentioned more often than Saint Matthias or St Matthias. — Sagotreespirit (^talk) 22:37, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose: I'm not aware of any clear consensus about the dot for "St" specifically, but it seems like largely an WP:ENGVAR matter. British/Commonwealth English typically does not include a dot after "Mr", Mrs", "Ms", "Dr", "Ave" and "St", while American and Canadian English do. See American and British English spelling differences, which says "Contractions where the final letter is present are often written in British English without full stops/periods (Mr, Mrs, Dr, St, Ave)." There are also many other articles that omit the dot like this one does, e.g., St Austell, St Thomas' Hospital, St Thomas' Church, Parkgate, etc. Considering MOS:TIES, after a quick look at the history of the place, I suspect the variant of English that most applies in these islands is British/Australian, and hence the lack of a dot is not a problem. It appears this was all brought up in the previous RM, with no effective rebuttal. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 23:31, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
• Support per MOS:POINTS. Rreagan007 (talk) 02:44, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

  The MOS:POINTS that says "the point is optional in British English"? —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 04:12, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

  "Modern style is to use a full point (period) after a shortening (see § Exceptions) but no full point with an acronym." You are correct that it then goes on to say that it is optional in British English, meaning that it can be used in British English or not. For something like "Dr" in a running sentence, it's fine to drop the period. But in something like an article title, it should be used. Alternatively, we could just move it to Saint Matthias Islands Rreagan007 (talk) 04:32, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

  There are a lot of articles on Wikipedia that would need renaming if we adopt the general idea that dots or fully spelled out words should be used for such article titles. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 19:16, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

  Well if those other articles are proposed at RM, then we can make a decision on them. But the point is that your WP:ENGVAR argument doesn't really hold water, since British English uses the full stop in these situations also, even if it might not be the majority usage in British English. Similar articles were rejected for renaming the Grey article, which is written in American English, even though "gray" is the more common American spelling, either are considered acceptable in American English. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:49, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

• Support per the above. ╠╣uw [talk] 13:12, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose—Both "St" and "St." appear to be acceptable. I do not see a reason to exchange one acceptable title for another except as a matter of personal preference. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 13:52, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.