Talk:St Denys' Church, Sleaford

What about the people?

The article as it stands today is an excellent discourse on the church building but has little to say about the church's people. Apart from any notable vicars (already on the to do this and thus far only covered from the point of view of memorials in the building) it would be interesting to see some coverage of clergy and congregation. For example what is St Denys' churchmanship? Has this changed over the years? Has the church been associated with any wider christian activities (mission work, retreats, hymn writing, organ recitals, etc)? Have there been any controversies at the church? What have been the historical patterns of church attendance? I could go on but will not. Greenshed (talk) 00:41, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

I hear what you are saying about this, but I have been unable to find information suggesting that the church as been involved in wider activities, like mission work and retreats. I do not know and have been unable to find the size of the average congregation at the present day; you will see that I have recited some early modern statistics for Conformists, incorporated the 1851 census of worship in the history section and discussed the influence of the Anglican congregation on Sleaford in the Victorian period. If there is any further information you are aware of, by all means, let me know. As for the vicars, I would like to add a full list, but the only source would be Trollope's 1872 book plus later newspaper articles or references in Crockford's. Not only is Trollope's work out of date, but I am aware of plenty of cases where the lists he gives are not comprehensive and they are probably not subject to the scholarly treatment one would like. The Lincoln Records Society has admirably started a series devoted to compiling a full list of clergy for every parish (past and present) in the county. Unfortunately, it is only on its second volume out of roughly 12 (there are 23 deaneries and each book deals with two in alphabetical order). It will be some years yet before New Sleaford (in the Lafford deanery) is covered. Thanks, —Noswall59 (talk) 13:20, 1 December 2015 (UTC).

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I did a bit of searching and apart from the odd name of a past vicar, came up with little. I wait with bated breath for the appropriate volume on the clergy of Lincolnshire past and present. Some of the stuff I did find (perhaps not all WP:RS) was:

The Sleaford Choral Society performs at St Denys - http://sleafordchoralsociety.btik.com/

The church hosted a BBC carol service in 2006 (perhaps not worth a mention) - http://www.sleafordstandard.co.uk/news/local/st-denys-to-host-bbc-carol-service-1-391300

There have been organ recitals - http://eventful.com/events/organ-recital-eric-wayman-/E0-001-024993321-4 , http://www.sleafordstandard.co.uk/what-s-on/arts-leisure/organ-concert-at-st-denys-church-sleaford-1-4056912 , http://www.lincolnshireecho.co.uk/organ-recital/story-11196238-detail/story.html

The focus on organ music goes back to at least the first decade of the 20th century with Alfred Parsons a minor composter, organist and music teacher taking up post at St Denys in 1903 - https://books.google.com/books?id=WSLUAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA258&lpg=PA258&dq=St+Denys'+Church,+Sleaford+organ+recital&source=bl&ots=RSp2EOOlZr&sig=yTpb-JCUtMnM9lC8sb-HhaisNFY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj92uqy377JAhUBXT4KHRvsCKoQ6AEIPzAG#v=onepage&q=St%20Denys'%20Church%2C%20Sleaford%20organ%20recital&f=false

It supports the Fairtrade movement - http://www.sleaford-fairtrade.btck.co.uk/News/2010

They hold some common services with the local Methodist church and also have some Taize services - http://lincoln.ourchurchweb.org.uk/sleafordstdenys/events.php

They use the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible - http://lincoln.ourchurchweb.org.uk/sleafordstdenys/about-us/about/

Perhaps this could be crafted into a sentence or two mentioning music at St Denys and a little concerning the current religious activities. Greenshed (talk) 03:32, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Misplaced apostrophe in title?

Is it named for two saints, both called Deny? Because if it is one saint called Denys, then the title should read "St Denys's Church". (compare for example, St Giles's Church, Tattenhoe - named for St Giles). --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 12:44, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

It is named after one composite saint called Denys. Both Denys' and Denys's are acceptable in English usage (the BBC uses the former [1]), although different manuals of style say different things (see this discussion). The MOS guideline on Wikipedia reflects this (see MOS:POSS). It says that, as long as one of the styles is used consistently, it is fine. If there are inconsistencies, do post them here or, preferably, remove them. Thanks, —Noswall59 (talk) 12:58, 1 December 2015 (UTC).

Bells

The article repeatedly refers to a 'peal' of bells. It should be a 'ring' of bells. 'Peal' (counterintuitively) is the term for a change ringing event of so many changes or hours in such and such a ringing pattern (often celebrated by commemorative boards mounted in the tower). I highlight this as it is such a widespread misconception.

The online version of the OED defines 'peal' in several ways, one of which is "A set of bells tuned to one another" ("peal", n1, definition c; the entry says that it is equivalent to 'ring' as you define it above). Thanks, —Noswall59 (talk) 15:03, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Well yes, and the alternative useage is acknowledged at en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Ring_of_bells. However the useage I have suggested is adopted consistently there and in en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Campanology#Change_ringing. Brian, 17:13, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Solar panels

This church has solar panels on the roof. Well worth mentioning as it is unusual for a Grade I listed building, but they are hidden behind the parapet. Someone with close knowledge of this installation should write a paragraph.

The solar panels are mentioned at the end of the history section. Thanks, —Noswall59 (talk) 15:04, 1 December 2015 (UTC).

Good to see, Brian, 17:15

The three Denys

To explain my change and to suggest my next change. First of all, I don't think that Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite has ever been recognized as a saint, except by way of his identification with the Athenian Christian mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles. Second, he is only probably a Syrian, and altogether, it seems to be that any identification just gets us into an irrelevant discussion about the the pseudonym. Once I removed the identification of the third Denys, I noticed that only the first Denys bore any description, which suggested to me that the best policy would be to remove his description, too. Anybody who was puzzled by the three individuals can follow the wikilinks. Either that, or give a brief description, contrasting the three, something like, "St Denys (Bishop of Paris, 3rd century), Dionysius the Areopagite (Athenian Christian mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles, 1st century), Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite (Christian writer, probably Syrian, c. 5th-6th century)". If I don't get any objection, I'm going to remove the description "who was martyred in Paris, c. 250", keeping things simple. TomS TDotO (talk) 16:23, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 December 2015

Please change x. Souttoa (talk) 23:51, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

• Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. --Stabila711 (talk) 01:37, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Schedule of services

The current article has a section on the schedule of services:

As of 2015, regular church services are scheduled for Sundays and Wednesdays. Holy Communion is conducted weekly at 8:00am on Sundays, followed by Sunday School and an all-age family worship at 10:00am. A parent and toddler group is scheduled for Wednesdays at 9:30am.

I don't believe such information belongs in the Wikipedia article. The WP:NOTDIRECTORY policy does mention not including "upcoming events, current promotions, current schedules". The example is about a broadcaster, but I'd think this is equally applicable to a church. The information is strictly practical and local, not encyclopedic, and we do link to the church's website which includes this information and much more. --Macrakis (talk) 22:45, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Hi, thank you for writing out your explanation. I struggle to see why this information should be deleted. At FAC and afterwards, a number of users were actually looking for me to add more information about the church's activities and this is about as much as I could give them. I think the policy you point to is quite vague and the example about a TV or radio station seems rather extreme. That the church is in regular use is important because it is very common for services to be rotated around a number of local churches in rural England; I can think of one case where a church has only three of four services a year. Hence, it does add value to the article. The whole "WP is not a directory" issue seems to be about not including large amounts of information which is not encyclopedic, rather unlike the three short, well-cited sentences you removed. Cheers, —Noswall59 (talk) 18:34, 13 December 2015 (UTC).

I agree that a small amount of information seems quite appropriate, although these kinds of details are sometimes put in "Church life" or "Church today" sections rather than in "Description". Such information prevents the subject appearing to be just an antiquated museum. The fact that the church holds Holy Communion every week is evidence of its significance in the parish. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:54, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

I agree that it is worth mentioning that it is an active parish. And the article already says it "remains in use for worship", that it is a "parish church", and that it is a "vicarage" (and even names its vicar), which if I'm not mistaken (I don't really know CoE terminology) means that there is a resident priest. The article also points to the church's Web site, which seems like the right place for "bulletin board" items. It seems to me that this suffices.

The hours of the various services are a detail. Take a look for comparison at the St Paul's Cathedral#Ministry and functions section. That is a far larger and more important church in many ways, yet the article does not try to enumerate all the services and their hours. --Macrakis (talk) 21:36, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Would it help (your concerns) if it was moved lower in the article, perhaps in a separate "Ministry and functions" type section? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:47, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Specific hours of specific services aren't encyclopedic, regardless of where they are; we don't show Harrods' opening hours, either, or the schedule of masses at St Peter's. I do agree (and always have) that it is useful and relevant to mention that the church has a resident priest and multiple services (including communion) per week. Wikipedia is not the place to look up schedules -- of trains, of stores, or of churches. --Macrakis (talk) 23:10, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I agree this information should be available on the website which is linked. I wouldn't equate church service times with shop-opening hours "even" those for Harrods (but no hours at London Central Mosque, I see). But no strong view. Perhaps reducing the information, or removing specific times could be a compromise. Ideally, a Wiki Project could provide firm guidance here, but which one? Martinevans123 (talk) 23:26, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't have a really strong view on this. I will point out though that I agree with St Paul's not having its full services enumerated - it would probably create a messy timetable which is not encyclopedic. I think including the schedule is okay for St Denys' because it is one of the only ways of illustrating its relevance to the community (whereas St Paul's is clearly very important in many more ways and on a wider scale, which will be discussed in a range of sources) and because it is small enough that it does not detract from anything else in the article. As it stands, the article focuses on the building and history largely because there seems to be little in the way of sources which talk about the people and community associated with the church; removing the schedule simply makes this worse. I'd be happy to hear more on this though. Cheers, —Noswall59 (talk) 23:49, 13 December 2015 (UTC).

While I similarly do not have a strong view on whether the specific service times should be included, I am certainly in favour of mentioning that "regular church services are scheduled for Sundays and Wednesdays" and that we could have one of "Holy Communion is conducted weekly at 8:00am on Sundays" or "Holy Communion is conducted weekly on Sunday mornings" etc. All this gives at least a little sense of the life of the church. In general more of this would be better but the sources have been elusive. Greenshed (talk) 03:41, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

There's certainly some wide variation: e.g. St Columb's Cathedral. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:40, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

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