Talk:Sergei Bortkiewicz

Edit war regarding Countries of Bortkiewicz' Heritage

It appears that there has been an edit war regarding what countries Bortkiewicz is associated with. Concerningly, it appears that @Michael Aurel, @2a02:1748:dd5c:fa40:bc1a:9343:8688:241e, and @CurryTime7-24 all performed multiple reverts this year without ever adding a new topic on this talk page.

At issue is the phrase "Russian-born Austrian" in the first sentence of the article. @CurryTime7-24 cited MOS:ETHNICITY when introducing this language. However, MOS:ETHNICITY disfavors the use of the country of birth in the lead: "Similarly, neither previous nationalities nor the country of birth should be mentioned in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability." The example provided is that Arnold Schwarzenegger should be called "Austrian and American", not "Austrian-born American".

However, this leaves the important question of whether Bortkiewicz should be described as Ukrainian, Russian, both, or something else. I don't see any convincing arguments either way in the RFEs. Given the scale of the current edit war, it's important to establish community consensus. I'm soliciting the help of WP:Wikiproject Ukraine and Wikipedia:WikiProject Russia/Performing arts in Russia task force.

Also involved in the edit war is the place names. Specifically, there is not a clear consensus on whether Ukrainian names (Kharkiv, Artemivka, and possibly Skorokhodove) or Russian names (Kharkov, Artiomovka) should be used, in a region that was unquestionably subject to both Russian and Ukrainian linguistic influence throughout Bortkiewicz' life. 167.102.146.19 (talk) 20:24, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

The citation from The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians states that Bortkiewicz was an "Austrian pianist and composer of Russian origin". Later in the same article, it mentions that "at the outbreak of World War I he returned to Russia, but was forced to emigrate in 1919". Edits that contradicted the source were reverted. Such reversions are not considered "edit warring" per WP:EW ("reverting to enforce certain overriding policies is not considered edit warring" and "reverting vandalism is not edit warring").

Alternative transliterations of place names are used when chronologically appropriate (see WP:KIEV). Note that this isn't exclusive to articles pertaining to Russia or the Ukraine. For example, the birthplace of E. T. A. Hoffmann is referred to in his article as Königsberg, not its modern name of Kaliningrad. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 20:51, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

He was from the country of Ukraine, in a period when it was colonized by the Russian empire. There is a tendency in recent sources to recognize this, and a rejection of the colonial attitude about Ukraine that was common in twentieth-century academia (some background). For example, several sources and art museums have renamed Degas’s Ukrainian dancers, and reclassified “Russian” artists Ivan Aivazovskyi, Davyd Burliuk, Oleksandra Ekster, Kazymyr Malevych, Mykola Murashko, Mykola Pymonenko, Illia Riepin, and other artists from Ukraine by recognizing their country of origin, or by describing their identity in more detail, regarding ancestry, citizenship, places of birth and professional activity, &c.

The traditional classification of everything good from Russian-colonized Ukraine as simply “Russian” represents an obsolete imported WP:BIAS and we should not just parrot it or blindly accept voices that advocate for its preservation.

Bortkiewicz was from Ukraine. You may write “Ukraine, Russian Empire,” if it pleases you, but there’s no reason to obscure the country as it was called at that time and still is today (it was also called by the deprecated and offensive synonym “Little Russia”). He was educated in part in Russia, but he was professionally active in Austria, Ukraine, Germany, Türkiye, and elsewhere.  —Michael Z. 22:01, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

It's possible for people of other nationality to be born on the territory of another country, especially since the country wasn't even existing at that time. Marcelus (talk) 22:22, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Right. Ukraine didn’t exist, according to the decree of Piotr Valuev, and the name “Ukraine” was an empty placeholder that imperial censors banned from use for no reason. The country, complete with tens of millions of Ukrainians and their language were brought into existence by a divine miracle in 1918, immediately after Lenin signed the treaty of Brest-Litovsk, recognizing Ukraine’s independence and borders. Thanks for the reminder, brother.  —Michael Z. 03:37, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Valuev is irrelevant in this case. Central Ukraine was a part of the Russian Empire, that's a fact. Marcelus (talk) 05:57, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it was. Thank you for acknowledging the fact.  —Michael Z. 13:01, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Bortkiewicz was born a Russian citizen; there was no country of Ukraine at the time. He was an ethnic Pole, if anything, but per MOS:ETHNICITY this should not be mentioned in the lead unless it is somehow part of what makes a subject notable. So Garibaldi, for example, who fought for Italian independence and was a central figure in its modern history, is referred to in his article as Italian, even though he was actually born a French citizen. However, Bortkiewicz never played any vital role in the history of Poland, Ukraine, Austria, or Russia for that matter. Even within the history of music his influence was, at best, marginal.

WP:BIAS, by the way, cuts both ways. Just because one is from a country that historically tends to strongly dislike another country, at least politically, does not give one the right to alter facts in order to flatter their pet political beliefs.

Returning to MOS:ETHNICITY, it also states "ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, neither previous nationalities nor the country of birth should be mentioned in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability". In other words, if the lead merely mentioned that he was Austrian or omitted mention of his citizenships altogether, that would be OK too. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 22:42, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

It appears that there is consensus to no longer mention Bortkiewicz as Russian, so I went ahead and made the edit. This discussion is still open for others to weigh in, and I still approach this with an open mind.

(Required disclosure, my IP address changed. I opened the topic as 167.102.146.19. Maybe I should register for an account to keep this from happening.) 134.192.8.17 (talk) 23:12, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

You refer to reversions that are acceptable according to policy as "edit warring", insinuate that I'm in some anti-Ukraine conspiracy with two other editors I've never even talked to, and you seem to have a personal grudge if your remark about consensus forming against "me" (as if I had anything to do with SB being born in Russia) is any indication. So much for "open mind".

Your familiarity with policy, unusual for a new IP user, and this article in particular suggests that you may be using more than one account without disclosure, but I'll leave that for others to decide. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 01:03, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

In my topic opening I mentioned you and two other editors who were violating WP:EDITWAR. One of them was excessively reverting to indicate that Bortkiewicz was Ukrainian, and the other was excessively reverting to indicate that Bortkiewicz was Russian. It's important to recognize that WP:CIVILITY applies to all sides in a conflict, and it could be harmful and divisive to call out only the uncivil behavior from one perspective.

I appreciate your kind words about my understanding of policy. I am always trying to improve. My use is fully compliant with WP:GOODSOCK. I also will leave that for others to decide.

(Also used 134.192.8.17 and 167.102.146.19) 50.169.82.253 (talk) 13:09, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

It appears that there is consensus to no longer mention Bortkiewicz as Russian, that's incorrect. Marcelus (talk) 06:03, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Why? With due respect for WP:NOTDEMOCRACY, you are the only user so far who apparently disagrees. We can only incorporate your interests if you support your reasoning for your claim that "Bortkiewcz's national affiliations are relevant to his biography."

(Also used 134.192.8.17 and 167.102.146.19) 50.169.82.253 (talk) 12:53, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

My impression is different Marcelus (talk) 13:03, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

I wish that you would WP:TALKDONTREVERT. Denying clear evidence that consensus exists, as you did in your RFE, is just WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. I don't see why your edit shouldn't be reverted to restore that aspect of the article to consensus.

(Also used 134.192.8.17 and 167.102.146.19) 50.169.82.253 (talk) 16:35, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Yep, it is still going on Chasetry78 (talk) 18:44, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Definitely, look how many new sources about him being Ukrainian just got added Chasetry78 (talk) 18:46, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Of course there was a country of Ukraine. Consult “Country” and “State” for a reminder of the difference. It was Bortkiewicz’s country of origin, for those who can conceive of countries beyond a nineteenth-century imperial model. That’s why some reliable sources state his nationality as Ukrainian, or describe him as Ukrainian-born.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8]  —Michael Z. 03:59, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure the first five sources are deep enough. Some of these sources merely mention Bortkiewicz as Ukrainian or from Ukraine, without forming a deeper analysis of his national identity. In the same way that the Grove encyclopedia's mere mention of Bortkiewicz as Russian does not end our analysis, the mere mention of Bortkiewicz as Ukrainian in other reliable sources does not end our analysis.

The sixth source seems to conduct a musical analysis and conclude that "it can be said that S. Bortkiewicz is really representative of the Ukrainian culture".

The seventh source does not seem to support your conclusion. Page 7 says, "Niemożliwe, aby identyfikował się również z narodem ukraińskim, gdyż państwo to powstało praktycznie dopiero w XX wieku." (It is impossible for him to identify himself with the Ukrainian nation, as this state has practically only been established in the twentieth century.) I don't accept the logic from this quote. You have provided excellent argument that there was a Ukrainian country, nation, or state around this time, but source 7 does not support your logic that Bortkiewicz was Ukrainian.

I don't see how source 8 supports your case - the frank reality is that it seems to oppose it. Source 8 says on (p. i), "Bortkiewicz was born and raised near Kharkov, Ukraine, but considered himself Russian." (I'm hesitant to accept this statement at face value because the article does mention any unambiguous statements from Bortkiewicz considering himself Russian.) I think the strongest evidence casting doubt on Bortkiewicz' Ukrainian identity is that he called Kharkiv "Little Russia" and "South Russia" (p. 16), terms which you acknowledged are offensive to Ukraine. However, source 8 also notes (p. 26), "Russians considered him Polish, because of his mother’s heritage." This casts doubt in Bortkiewicz' Russian identity. Source 8 also mentions the significant Russian influences in Bortkiewicz' music, which Source 6 does not acknowledge.

MOS:ETHNICITY does not address which specific factors form a person's nationality. However, it is firm that a country of a subject's birth and childhood cannot be a sole factor in determining that person's nationality. The argument that Kharkiv was Ukraine is moot because this was just the "where" and not the "who". It does not establish whether Bortkiewicz himself identified as Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, or something else. I'm beginning to lean toward using the style of Copernicus from MOS:ETHNICITY and omitting from the lead any references to Bortkiewicz as Ukrainian, Russian, or Polish, possibly describing him as only Austrian if there is consensus that he should still be considered Austrian.

(Also used 134.192.8.17 and 167.102.146.19) 50.169.82.253 (talk) 14:57, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

I’m merely saying he was from Ukraine.

I don’t think we’re talking about his self-identification at all, and obviously I’m not saying he identified as a Ukrainian. His own comments have to be interpreted in his cultural and historical context: in the Russian empire one could get in serious trouble for publicly acknowledging Ukrainian as a separate national identity so it wasn’t done, and the name Ukrainian wasn’t universally used as an ethnonym until after the revolution (in Austro-Hungarian Ukraine, Ukrainians had referred to themselves as Rusyns, Rusnaks, or Ruthenians). This coloured the way people from there referred to themselves and others, and the way the rest of the world referred to them.  —Michael Z. 20:21, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

MOS:ETHNICITY does guide that self identification is a factor in determining the nationality of a biography subject. Regarding UK subjects, it says, "To come to a consensus, editors should consider how reliable sources refer to the subject, particularly UK reliable sources, and consider whether the subject has a preference on which nationality they identify by." You raise an important concern regarding duress. For the sake of fairness, it would make sense for duress to be a factor among other factors determining nationality, to keep the duress-causing state from being able to reap the cultural benefits of its immoral duress. Although Dmitri Shostakovich's nationality was not questioned, the effects of Soviet duress were obvious in his music. However, I'm concerned that giving too much weight to duress might have the unintended effect of misclassifying people whose identification with their country was genuine and not actually affected by duress. This might be guided by the music of Bortkiewicz, and his biographical details. Yes, we know that he was strongly against the Bolshevik revolution, but did he have affinity for pre-Bolshevik Russia? Did his music ever hint at resistance against the Russian Empire?

It's important to establish consistent style guidelines across Wikipedia. For that reason, I am consulting Wikipedia Talk:Manual of Style/Biography for an opinion on whether duress can be a factor in determining the nationality of a biography subject.

(Also used 134.192.8.17, 50.169.82.253, and 167.102.146.19) 169.156.16.220 (talk) 23:34, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

@Mzajac, Bortkiewicz have spend very little time in Russia, he was living in the west for most of his life; there was nothing stopping him from identyfing as Ukrainian, nonetheless he never did that, insisting on his Russian ethnicity. Marcelus (talk) 06:03, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Bortkiewcz's national affiliations are relevant to his biography. They should not be removed from the lead. Marcelus (talk) 06:02, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Definitely, check out how many new sources just got added Chasetry78 (talk) 18:48, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the friendly edit removing "born".

Reverting to enforce overriding policies cannot be a sole factor determining that action is not an edit war. If it were, good faith editors could engage in limitless reverts based on their good faith belief that they are enforcing the policies. Although you considered the edits you reverted to be good faith, I don't see any RFE or talk post explaining the reason for your edit, other than mentioning MOS:ETHNICITY in your first revert. WP:EDITWAR guides, "When reverting, be sure to indicate your reasons. This can be done in the edit summary and/or talk page." You reverted four edits, from four different accounts, considering Bortkiewicz Ukrainian in the lead. Certainly, starting with your second revert, it would have been helpful to write a more lengthy RFE or talk page post about why you believed MOS:ETHNICITY to support your edit. Otherwise, it may begin to appear that consensus is being formed against you.

Unlike Königsberg, I'm not sure that the Russian name Kharkov was officially exclusive of the Ukrainian name Kharkiv, at least not before the 1917 Russian Revolution, when Bortkiewicz was already 40.

Since you mention "the Ukraine", please see WP:DONTUSETHE. That term is associated with the Russian perspective. 134.192.8.17 (talk) 22:40, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

I just realized my IP address switched. I'm actually the original poster who previously edited as 167.102.146.19. I apologize for the confusion and I'm not trying to create a false appearance of consensus. 134.192.8.17 (talk) 22:56, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

I saw a request for input at Russia and Ukraine Wikiprojects. I think that saying that he was Russian or Ukrainian is misleading as the reader can understand that this was his ethnicity, which is obviously not true, since he was Polish.

I would rephrase is as "a composer of Polish origin who was born in Russian Empire (modern Ukraine) and lived most of his life in Austria." Alaexis_¿question? 11:29, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Although tThis proposed first sentence does not comply with the guidelines of MOS:ETHNICITY, I'm prepared to accept it anyway because it seems like an appealing WP:COMPROMISE. The facts in this proposed first sentence don't seem to be disputed by anyone: Bortkiewicz had Polish origin, was born in the Russian Empire, was born in what is now Ukraine, and lived most of his life in Austria. This avoids the need to call Bortkiewicz Russian or Ukrainian. Clearly, these are divisive labels, and I'm not sure either label is supported by facts. In my opinion, this proposed first sentence is not excessively wordy, and it lays out the undisputed facts for the reader without jumping to a conclusion about Bortkiewicz' nationality. This seems closest to the Copernicus example on MOS:ETHNICITY, but if the community can't agree on this form of a first sentence, iIt may be better to follow more closely in the steps of the Copernicus example and omit all references to Russian, Ukrainian, or Polish ethnicity or ties in the lead, and instead refer to him either as simply Austrian, or no ethnicity at all.@Mzajac raises valid concerns that the proposed first sentence wording is not a valid compromise, because it presents Ukraine as some kind of later invention.

(Also used 134.192.8.17 and 167.102.146.19) 50.169.82.253 (talk) 12:38, 9 August 2023 (UTC) edited 15:50, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

The references I cited above don’t say “modern Ukraine” or “what is now Ukraine.” They say Ukraine, Ukrainian, or Ukrainian-born. Your WP:SYNTH formulation presents Ukraine as some kind of later invention, which is a theme in Russian fascism but not in reliable sources about Bortkiewicz.  —Michael Z. 12:59, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

@Mzajac The sources you point to do not identify Bortkiewicz as a "Ukrainian" artist. Moreover, some of them even say the opposite.

"The New Criterion" describes him as a "Ukrainian-born Polish composer" ([9]).

Jeremiah A. Johnson's Echoes of the Past: Stylistic and Compositional Influences in the Music of Sergei Bortkevich ([10]) puts it bluntly: Sergei Bortkiewicz (1877-1952), remains relatively unknown. Bortkiewicz was born and raised near Kharkov, Ukraine, but consideredhimself Russian. (p. i) and It would seem that a composer from Kharkov, Ukraine, undoubtedly would employ the use of Ukrainian folk music and localized folk elements in his music; however, Bortkiewicz rarely acknowledged Ukraine in his own writings and compositions. Throughout his career, he continuously referenced his own pieces with the label “Russian,” (...) In fact, any mention of Ukraine in Bortkiewicz’s Recollections appears quite tangentially. Here is one of the few such occurrences: “I spent the summer (as before in earlier years) on our estate ‘Artiomowka,’ 24 kilometers from the city of Charkow [Kharkov]. We thus lived in Little-Russia, in the so-called Ukraine. A beautiful country with fertile lands.” (p. 5) or The Bortkiewicz family owned a nice estate and land in Artiomowka, about fifteen kilometers from Kharkov, yet Bortkiewicz continually referenced Kharkov as “Little Russia” or “South Russia.” Bortkiewicz noted from his early childhood that Kharkov was regarded as the intellectual center of South Russia (p. 18). Also on the page 26: In a letter dated April 21, 1933, Bortkiewicz wrote to Hugo van Dalen: “Although I have a good reputation in Germany, I still am a ‘foreigner’ and now one is looked upon very unfavorably if one is not a genuine German, and there are even fewer opportunities for any position.” Bortkiewicz seemed to be an outsider wherever he went. Russians considered him Polish, because of his mother’s heritage. In addition, Russians were also looked down upon at the time in Germany and Austria, due to the behavior of Soviet troops abroad and heightened tensions after the war. So there is no question of the artist's Ukrainian origin, or that he considered himself or other people to be Ukrainian.

You also refer to a Polish source ([11]), which states clearly: Today no one is also able to determine whether this artist identified himself with the Polish nation, because even if he did, he could not articulate this publicly. It is impossible that he also identified with the Ukrainian nation, since that state was practically created only in the 20th century. (p. 99)

Did you not study these links at all before inserting them? Are you able to point out that any of these sources say what you claim? Or are you simply providing as many sources as possible just to force acceptance of your version hoping that no one will verify their content?

It is quite easy for you to accuse others of "fascism" and other low motives, but it seems to me that you are the one who should reconsider your behavior, the way you edit and the way you conduct discussions. Marcelus (talk) 13:33, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it says he was born in Ukraine, not “in modern Ukraine,” not “in what is now Ukraine.”

I did not accuse anyone, just pointed out how their baseless synthetic phrasing can be perceived.  —Michael Z. 13:41, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

You said: "That's why some reliable sources state his nationality as Ukrainian, or describe him as Ukrainian-born," after which you provided several links to sources. Can you clearly indicate which of these sources state his nationality as Ukrainian, and which describe him as Ukrainian-born?

Because my verification indicates that you tried to mislead the participants in the discussion. I ask that you respond to this. Your behavior qualifies to be reported to the appropriate noticeboard. Marcelus (talk) 13:53, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

At minimum, the first, second, and fifth sources cited clearly state this. @Mzajac's use of citations was WP:IMPERFECT but WP:GOODFAITH. The purpose of citing sources is to allow others to critically analyze the sources, as you have done, which shows that the citations served their purpose. Threatening to report this as misconduct seems to lack WP:COURTESY.

(Also used 134.192.8.17 and 167.102.146.19) 50.169.82.253 (talk) 15:11, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Please verify better before accusing of bad faith and threatening reports.

All of these refer to Ukraine as a country under the Russian empire without qualifications. A couple also refer to the territory of the state of modern Ukraine but only supplementally when they are explaining or referring to political historical context.

No. 8 devotes many pages to explaining the historical context of Ukraine as colonized subaltern of the Russian empire as it relates to Bortkiewicz’s identity, and I’d recommend it to anyone that’s not familiar with the subject. I would say that all of these sources, their contrast to some other sources, and especially that essay justify this Wikipedia article identifying Bortkiewicz’s Polish ethnicity and his birth in Ukraine as a subject of the Russian empire as integral to understanding him and his work.

1.[12] 66: “He was a Ukrainian-born Polish composer who lived from 1877 to 1952”

2.[13] 63: “Bortkiewicz, Sergei (1877–1952)—Ukraine, Austria

3.[14] 67: “Bortkiewicz, born in Ukraine in 1877, was a child of his time, his story a variant of that of several better-known figures . . . “

4.[15]154: “He came from the landed gentry of Kharkov in the Ukraine . . .”

5.[16] 96: “Sergei Bortkiewicz (1877–1952, Ukraine) studied both law and music, . . .”

6.[17] 16–19:

“Thus, the creative activity of S. Bortkiewicz until 1919 was connected with the eastern Ukraine and his native city Kharkiv. / When the composer went abroad from Ukraine in 1919, . . .”

“Even foreign musicians of that time, noted the presence in the composer’s musical language the coloring which is inherent music of south-western region of the Russian Empire, i.e. the territory of modern Ukraine.”

“Given all of the above, we claim that S. Bortkiewicz has made a significant contribution to the development of national art, creating outstanding examples of Ukrainian musical romanticism of the first half of the twentieth century.

7.[18] “Some of them claim that he was Russian, others write about his Ukrainian origin. . . . The author of one of the web pages writes that ‘Sergei Bortkevich was born in the Ukrainian town named Kharkov to a noble family of a Polish origin, as a son of the landowner Edward Bortkiewicz’. Due to the mentioned state of research, the need determine the composer’s nationality and to study the history and genealogy of his family in great detail seemed natural. That is why one of the aims of the article is to discuss the assumption of Bortkievich’s Polish lineage even though he was born and raised in the territory of the present-day Ukraine.”

8.[19] i: “Bortkiewicz was born and raised near Kharkov, Ukraine, but considered himself Russian.”

[the country Ukraine] 5: “In fact, any mention of Ukraine in Bortkiewicz’s Recollections appears quite tangentially. Here is one of the few such occurrences: ‘I spent the summer (as before in earlier years) on our estate “Artiomowka,” 24 kilometers from the city of Charkow [Kharkov]. We thus lived in Little-Russia, in the so-called Ukraine.”

[vs. the modern state Ukraine in historical political context] 6: “From 1650 to 1812, the land that is now Ukraine lay on the outskirts of competing territories and constantly shifting borders. Tharoor mentioned, ‘Ukraine would also see the incursions of Hungarians, Ottomans, Swedes, bands of Cossacks, and the armies of successive Russian czars.’”

8: “Bortkiewicz even mentioned Gogol’s importance to the Russian language in his own Recollections: ‘The greatest writer of Ukraine, Gogol, wrote his works in Russian. No one has understood the nature of the people of his land better than he, and yet he wrote in Russian, because as an artist and thinker he understood the superiority of the language.”  —Michael Z. 16:37, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

So in summary none of the sources describe Bortkiewicz as a "Ukrainian", moreover sources 7 and 8 (which are dedicated to Bortkiewicz's character and do not mention him in passim) explicitly say that he considered himself a Russian and cannot be described as a Ukrainian.

So your statement "some reliable sources state his nationality as Ukrainian" was false, I assume it was simply due to the fact that you did not read these sources but pasted them as googled results, and it was not a blatant attempt on your part to deceive others. Marcelus (talk) 17:03, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

With regard to sources 1, 2, and 5, I'm concerned that your claim that "none of the sources describe Bortkiewicz as a "Ukrainian"" is again WP:ICANTHEARYOU.

(Also used 134.192.8.17, 50.169.82.253, and 167.102.146.19) 169.156.16.220 (talk) 18:01, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

1st calls him "Ukrainian-born" not "Ukrainian". 2nd doesn't say anything about his nationality or ethnicity. 5th likewise. Marcelus (talk) 18:59, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

@Mzajac accurately quoted the second and fifth references. Both list Ukraine next to Bortkiewicz' name. What do you think it means when source 5 similarly mentions Germany next to Robert Schumann's name and France next to Claude Debussy's? That this source just decided to put random countries there?

(Also used 134.192.8.17, 50.169.82.253, and 167.102.146.19) 169.156.16.220 (talk) 21:32, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the only mentions of his ethnicity/nationality I can find in archival news reports about him in English exclusively refer to him as Russian. Would be glad to cite these if needed. Keep in mind I'll be on and off from my PC today, so my reply may be a little slow. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 18:01, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Contemporary English-language reports? Of course they did. In the Russian empire Ukrainian identity was denied and nationality was an imperial concept. “Little Russian” was used to denigrate Ukrainians internally, but externally everything was just “Russian.”

The Soviet Union wasn’t much different in the way it treated nationalities, and externally it was commonly called “Russia” as long as it existed. Anyone who publicly identified as Ukrainian would have to explain what that meant, and it was easier not to bother.  —Michael Z. 20:00, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

This is all in response to your claim that “the country wasn't even existing at that time.” You selectively “debunk” individual words of my comments, introduce straw men “ethnicity” which I never claimed and selectively-interpreted “nationality,” while ignoring your own original false claim and what I am demonstrating through the sources: Bortkiewicz was from Ukraine (he even said he was from Ukraine himself, and I’m certain he didn’t mean “what is now Ukraine”). Shall I now accuse you of a blatant attempt on your part to deceive others and threaten to report you?

Ukraine existed. Bortkiewicz was from Ukraine. Multiple reliable sources list his country or birth place as Ukraine. Add to the above, the Library of Congress[20] and VIAF: “nationality or associated country: Ukraine.”[21]

You want to claim that when a reference says “Sergei Bortiewicz – Ukraine,” or calls him “Ukrainian-born,” or says his activity is “was connected with the eastern Ukraine,” or writes an entire essay about whether his “nationality” is Ukrainian or Polish, or discusses the effect of growing up surrounded by Ukrainian culture on his music it is definitely not indicating nationality, you are entitled to that opinion.

But go ahead and report me if it pleases you, so you can cut out the accusations here.  —Michael Z. 19:41, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

1. Ukraine wasn't existing as a country at the time of Bortkiewicz's birth. That's a fact.

2. My goal is not to "debunk" anything you say. I only demand that you use your sources without misrepresenting their content. Of the sources you presented none claim that Bortkiewicz was of Ukrainian nationality. Some claim that he was born in Ukraine. Others even contradict what you say, they explicitly state that Bortkiewicz cannot be called Ukrainian, and that he described himself as Russian. You can write a wall of text, but you will not change the fact that you have manipulated the source. I don't know if intentionally or not. Marcelus (talk) 19:57, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

They all say he was from Ukraine.

None of them say it “wasn’t existing as a country,” because that is disparaging nonsense. Then what was it existing as, since everyone agrees it was existing as something? You are the one pushing your personal view here.  —Michael Z. 20:03, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Ukraine wasn't exisiting as a country in 1877, it was a part of Russian Empire. But that's irrelevant really.

What matter is a fact that you are manipulating sources and present them dishonestly in order to "win" discussion. Don't do that, it's despicable. Marcelus (talk) 20:16, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Ukraine was existing as a country in 1877. The Russian empire was full of countries. All of the sources above, and Bortkiewicz and his contemporaries quoted in them, were referring to the country of Ukraine, which existed when he was born, long before that, and continues to exist today.

You’re talking yourself back in circles, apparently having declined my advice to learn the difference between country and state.

And now you’re blatantly accusing me of bad faith and calling me names. You’re wrong. You’re the one WP:HEARing selectively or not at all, and misinterpreting to justify your own accusations. I’m done talking to you.  —Michael Z. 20:27, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Your persistent changing of the subject and unwillingness to admit that you are wrong justifies my assumption that you are driven by ill will and deliberately building dishonest arguments by manipulating sources to win the discussion. Marcelus (talk) 20:39, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Sources say he was from Ukraine. The article should say he was from Ukraine. Not dishonest. Not manipulating anything.

By the way, my dictionary says a Ukrainian is a native or inhabitant of Ukraine, or a person of Ukrainian descent, so it is not wrong to call him a Ukrainian either. But as I wrote above, it is better to describe a subject’s national affiliations in more detail than with just an ambiguous adjective: Bortkiewicz was from Ukraine, of Polish ancestry, born a subject of the Russian empire, and later lived and worked in a number of other countries.  —Michael Z. 22:01, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

You literally said: That’s why some reliable sources state his nationality as Ukrainian, stop dodging. Marcelus (talk) 22:23, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Nationality: “the status of belonging to a particular nation” (Oxford Dictionary of English). I quoted statements of nationality above, for example “Bortkiewicz, Sergei (1877–1952)—Ukraine, Austria.”

I also suggested that they be stated more specifically than that.

This is getting tedious and disruptive. You recently called me names and accused me of bad faith, then almost immediately at-tagged me in a related thread so you could keep finding excuses to abuse me. I think you should just take a break and let the discussion continue without your repetitive and inappropriate input. We all know what you think, already.  —Michael Z. 13:48, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Please provide then sources that clearly states that Bortkiewicz belonged to the Ukrainian nation. If you are unable to do so then the case is closed. Marcelus (talk) 07:57, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

This is the edit that you did not respond to. You're still welcome to respond to it: @Mzajac accurately quoted the second and fifth references. Both list Ukraine next to Bortkiewicz' name. What do you think it means when source 5 similarly mentions Germany next to Robert Schumann's name and France next to Claude Debussy's? That this source just decided to put random countries there? (also used 134.192.8.17, 169.156.16.220, and 167.102.146.19) 50.169.82.253 (talk) 11:31, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

I see how this wording could create a legitimate concern making it incorrectly appear that Ukraine did not exist when Bortkiewicz was born. I don't see a good compromise to repair this opening section, so I'll have to withdraw my support for the proposed opening line and solely advocate for the Copernicus format, not mentioning Bortkiewicz as Russian, Ukrainian, or Polish in the lead.

(Also used 134.192.8.17 and 167.102.146.19) 50.169.82.253 (talk) 15:42, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Agree, looks like now he is referred to as Ukrainian Chasetry78 (talk) 18:49, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Reason for revert of Marcelus' rollback

This user published an edit that added WP:RS for the subject's national and ethnic identities, including Ukrainian. The edit was supported by an extended RFE at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography#Determining Nationality: Is duress a factor?, which was linked from the main RFE. This edit was followed by two more edits, one from Achmad Rachmani, and one from CurryTime7-24. Marcelus responded by rolling back the article to the version before this user's edit.

Unfortunately, Marcelus did not explain the content reasons why their version should be favored. After this user's edit, Marcelus did not edit this talk page and only posted the corresponding discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography#Determining Nationality: Is duress a factor? once, to redirect users back to the talk page, but then Marcelus did not thereafter post on the talk page. Marcelus still has not. This prompted me to file a report for edit warring.

Marcelus subsequently posted two comments (first, second) on the admin noticeboard regarding the article content. Although these content discussions probably should have been posted in WP:TALK, I still make an effort to address Marcelus' concerns there.

Marcelus wrote in the first diff that "a consensus has not been established to recognise Bortkiewicz as Ukrainian and not to recognise him as Russian." This may reflect a misunderstanding of this user's edits. The edit Marcelus most recently reverted did not remove any content referring to Bortkiewicz as Russian. It just added content referring to Bortkiewicz as Ukrainian, and added multiple content citations, including two direct inline citations for the claim that he was Russian. Another compromise option I previously tried was to remove mention of both Bortkiewicz' Russian and Ukrainian identities. However, Marcelus reverted that too. Contrary to Marcelus' claims about consensus, Marcelus is the only user who has requested that the article should refer to Bortkiewicz as Russian without mentioning him as Ukrainian.

As for Marcelus' challenge to the sources referring to Bortkiewicz as Ukrainian, Marcelus abandoned that discussion when we had it on the Talk page. Marcelus' RFE says that I was "ignoring ongoing discussion", and Marcelus' first admin noticeboard diff says that I was "unilaterally ignor[ing]" Marcelus' points, but the record shows that Marcelus was the one ignoring ongoing discussion. Thus, I am concerned that Marcelus' comments regarding the discussion are WP:GASLIGHTING and WP:ICANTHEARYOU.

In a good faith attempt to follow proper procedure, I requested admin clarification on whether reverting would be permissible conduct for me in this situation (no response after nine hours).

By reverting, I am in no way claiming that there is WP:CONSENSUS that this version is the best. The discussions should continue regarding whether it is actually better to remove from the lead all mention of ethnicity/nationality. However, there is clear consensus that the article should not refer to Bortkiewicz as Russian without also referring to him as Ukrainian.

I'm only reverting the edit, not rolling back to a previous version more than one edit ago. This means that CurryTime7-24's edit will be preserved. I'm fine removing the Magrath source as long as the other two sources remain, and I'm fine with keeping the notice templates there while the discussion plays out (although to maintain WP:NPOV, similar notice templates may need to be added next to the Russian citations to accommodate Michael's concerns). I just don't agree with the application of WP:REPEATCITE and WP:REFBOMB. Both have exceptions where the cited content is controversial, as I think is clearly the case as evidenced by this discussion. So where CurryTime7-24 has contended that Bortkiewicz was Russian, I really think it would make sense to solidify that with a direct inline citation, if the first sentence remains this way.

(also used 134.192.8.17, 169.156.16.220, and 167.102.146.19) 50.169.82.253 (talk) 13:07, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

"So where CurryTime7-24 has contended that Bortkiewicz was Russian, I really think it would make sense to solidify that with a direct inline citation, if the first sentence remains this way."

I did, with the citation from The New Grove, which is why I amended the article in January and reverted edits that contradicted the source. Previously the article only mentioned his being Ukrainian with no source.

If editors wish to deny evidence, including the subject's own statements, about their national identity, then continued discussion is pointless. Again, the best compromise is to omit any mentions of Bortkiewicz's nationalities in the lead as these were not important; neither to his career, nor to the countries that he legally was a citizen of or those who wish to claim him posthumously.

Would be interested to hear if @Mellk and @Aza24 have any insight to help move on from this impasse.

By the way, can the IP editor decide once and for all where debate on this matter will be held and finalized? It is not helpful that they keep jumping from this discussion to the one on the article talk page and back. I'm sure it's not their intention, but their doing so makes it confusing for interested editors to determine at which discussion the outcome will settle this issue once and for all. (Addendum: This is the Bortkiewicz talk page discussion. Missed that in the confusion between this and the other discussion, but it confirms my point.) —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 18:49, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Why did you remove Sergei Bortkiewicz from the categories Ukrainian classical pianists, Ukrainian classical composers, Ukrainian emigrants to Austria, and Ukrainian emigrants to Germany, while similar Russian categories remain in effect? You didn't mention this change in your RFR. If you believe (as I likewise would be happy to accept) that a compromise would be to omit any mentions of Bortkiewicz's nationalities in the lead, then why did you just remove only the mentions of Bortkiewicz as Ukrainian? Why didn't you also remove the reference to Bortkiewicz as Russian? This discussion has been open for almost five days, and many users have had a chance to weigh in. What specific necessary criteria for WP:CONSENSUS do you believe are in question? If you can't name specific and reasonable criteria for consensus that you're looking for to act on the compromise version that you propose, then I'm concerned that you're just WP:STONEWALLING in indefinite defense of a non-WP:NPOV version that you don't even claim to support. (also used 134.192.8.17, 169.156.16.220, and 167.102.146.19) 50.169.82.253 (talk) 19:53, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

I can't speak for why and what about in other articles I don't know about—I'm not the editor-in-chief of Wikipedia. Please stop trying to confuse the discussion.

According to the source I pulled up for Bortkiewicz in January, it said he was Russian and made no mention of him being Ukrainian. Therefore, I removed all references that said otherwise because they contradicted the source. As for the source itself, it's The New Grove. Your implication that it's somehow a sub-standard or dubious source is a very fringe opinion. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 23:19, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Grove is a respected WP:RS. I wouldn't question it, and I didn't. Notice how in my previous edit, I incorporated Grove as a direct inline citation right after the word "Russian", so that it made it clear that Grove considered Bortkiewicz Russian. Despite our disagreement about WP:REPEATCITE and WP:REFBOMB, that was my genuine attempt to respect the authority of Grove.

However, your decision to remove "Ukrainian" and the WP:RS associating Bortkiewicz with Ukraine can only be WP:NPOV if this is part of a compromise in which the article also no longer calls Bortkiewicz Russian, even though WP:RS do call him Russian. This compromise has received considerable support. You first suggested describing Bortkiewicz as neither Russian nor Ukrainian in the lead. Alaexis suggested this too, followed by @Trovatore here, you again, and @David Eppstein here, @SMcCandlish here, and finally you here again. Based on this WP:CONSENSUS, I will remove both "Russian" and "Austrian" from the first sentence. Although I personally don't agree with removing "Austrian", I believe this is an acceptable WP:COMPROMISE, and some of the editors I mentioned seem to disfavor any mention of "Austrian" in the lead. I hope that this will be a compromise where we can continue on to discuss the more substantive parts of the article in the body.

I don't see any comment from you on why you removed the four Ukrainian categories. I will restore them. Unlike the first sentence, categories don't need to be omitted just because they're controversial. I think this is consistent with the discussion, the body and the categories can still contain correct information about Bortkiewicz. However, I'm still open to a variety of ideas that as long as they don't include certain documented identities while ignoring others.

I remind you that WP:REVERT is not the only way to change the article for the better. If you really want "Russian" back in the first sentence, you can put "Ukrainian" back in the first sentence as well, and cite both with WP:RS. If you simply revert, this is a message that you support the status quo of a one-sided presentation of Bortkiewicz as Russian but not Ukrainian. It's inadvisable to revert simply due to claims of no consensus. You have not identified what criteria for consensus you believe are necessary and lacking. This is a danger sign for WP:STONEWALLING.

(also used 134.192.8.17, 169.156.16.220, and 167.102.146.19) 50.169.82.253 (talk) 01:23, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Tend to agree with this. Either put all the nationalities in the lead sentence, or save them all for more explanation later, preferably the latter.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:29, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Yet another dishonest personal attack with snide insinuations that is more a projection of your own agenda than anything else. I never "really wanted" Bortkiewicz to be Russian. Had The New Grove said he was Ukrainian, Paraguayan, Blefuscundian, or whatever, I would have edited accordingly. My only concern, as I said at least once before, was ensuring the information added to the article did not contradict or falsify what the source actually said.

I also don't care about adding anything to the lead and am puzzled why you needed to warn me about it. According to your own statement, this compromise version of the lead is exactly what I want. Doesn't that mean you did my bidding then? —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 02:23, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

By material implication, it can't be a personal attack. Every statement starting with "If you really want "Russian" back" is true if you don't actually want "Russian" back. I never intended it as a personal attack.

I appreciate your note to editors. I find it thoughtful and neutral. I hope that clears up the issue then (hopefully). Perhaps I did your bidding. I might even call that a successful compromise. (also used 134.192.8.17, 169.156.16.220, and 167.102.146.19) 50.169.82.253 (talk) 03:01, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

As such, we are looking for the common designation of Bortkiewicz's nationality by reliable secondary sources focused on the topic, and so far Grove is clear in saying "Austrian composer of Russia descent". The only other option I could see is "Austrian composer of Russian or Ukrainian descent" (with an accompanying note to explain the supposed discrepency), based on the abstract of this article. But unfortunately, I don't have time to evaluate the claim of the Kościelak-Nadolska article (the reliability of which is suspect, as it seems to have been written to just prove a polish lineage for Bortkiewicz), nor do I have the time to read the wall(s) of text above.Aza24 (talk) 20:48, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

I hope you can also review the sources that tie Bortkiewicz to Ukraine, presented in this diff. Three of these sources were added to the article before being removed by Marcelus and CurryTime7-24. However, I'm inclined to move forward with CurryTime7-24's proposal to remove all references to nationality and ethnicity from the first sentence, just like the Copernicus example at MOS:ETHNICITY. No one ever opposed this proposal, so WP:CONSENSUS is assumed, and this would fix the current situation in which the subject is described as Russian at the same time that WP:RS describing him as Ukrainian are excluded from the article. (also used 134.192.8.17, 169.156.16.220, and 167.102.146.19) 50.169.82.253 (talk) 21:05, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

@Marcelus What do you think? —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 23:22, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

@CurryTime7-24 and @Aza24: So far, no one has pointed to any reliable source that clearly states that Bortkiewicz was of Ukrainian nationality or that he was a Ukrainian. Sources that claim that he was born in Ukraine, was associated with Ukraine or lived there do not meet this requirement. This is a clear requirement under Wikipedia's rules. That's basically a bottom line of our discussion.

Contrary to what IP accuses me of, I did not abandon any of the discussions, I simply did not have access to the Internet over the weekend, moreover, I see no need to repeat during the discussion what has already been said once. IP tries to overtalk everyone by starting multiple discussions on the same topic, writing long essays, dragging out the discussion, twisting the arguments of others, etc. This is unacceptable behavior and a trap that I do not intend to fall into.

Bortkiewicz's Polish origins are mentioned by many sources (for example: Jeremiah A. Johnson's Echoes of the Past: Stylistic and Compositional Influences in the Music of Sergei Bortkevich). Koscielak-Nadolska is the best source because she has thoroughly researched the roots of Bortkiewicz and his family. There is no reason to remove the mention of the composer's Polish origins. None of the sources also mention that Bortkiewicz had any Ukrainian descent, so this is WP:OR.

To summarize: there is no reason to remove from the article about Bortkiewicz the mention of his Russian and Austrian nationality and Polish derivations, none of the sources describe him as a Ukrainian artist, so we can't include that. Marcelus (talk) 07:35, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

I most recently engaged your comments about the Ukrainian sources here.

Lack of internet access doesn't explain why you reverted without discussing. If you had internet access to revert, you had internet access to discuss. If you only had time for one, I've got to think that responding to the RFE discussion would have been a more productive use of time than reverting an edit that was supported by a thorough RFE. If you thought the necessary discussion had already been had, then you could write that in a discussion response to the RFE. Otherwise, we can't read your mind and we can only call out a violation of WP:TALKDONTREVERT. (also used 134.192.8.17, 169.156.16.220, and 167.102.146.19) 50.169.82.253 (talk) 11:50, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

2nd reference (Composers' Genealogies), p. XIII: This book is an alphabetical list of composers around the world and throughout history, including the dates they lived, the primary countries where they lived, their teachers, and their notable students; so Ukraine is listed here as a country where Bortkiewicz lived.

5th reference doesn't say what it means by the countries' names listed next to the composers. But for certain it doesn't say that Bortkiewicz was "Ukrainian composer".

Let me repeat again: please provide source that clearly states Bortkiewicz was Ukrainian. Marcelus (talk) 13:43, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Lack of internet access doesn't explain why you reverted without discussing, I gave the reason for my revert in the description, it was based on the ongoing discussion: no source says Bortkiewicz was Ukrainian; what's more the source you cited were misrepresented, which was proven during the discussion on this very t/p. Marcelus (talk) 13:47, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

I agree completely. I am not convinced by any of the references above. Two are the The New Criterion and a book on Wittgenstein, neither of which has relevance to music. Stating he was born where modern-day Ukraine is does not equate to calling him Ukrainian. The only two studies specific to Bortkiewicz linked above do not make a direct declaration. There is clearly some cherry picking going on here; if "Ukrainian" was the dominant way to describe him in secondary sources, it would be much easier to find direct declarations, as it is for Lysenko, Leontovych etc. Aza24 (talk) 19:32, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

I agree, which is why I think we should return to the definitions for which we have reliable sources, namely: a Russian and an Austrian composer of Polish origin. This is really not a controversial topic. Marcelus (talk) 21:10, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

But the source you used, Grove 2001,[22] does not meet the equivalent threshold you demanded above, “that clearly states that Bortkiewicz was of Ukrainian nationality or that he was a Ukrainian.” Although I don't have full access to Grove, CurryTime24-7’s quotation from Grove above is “Austrian pianist and composer of Russian origin,” not “of Russian nationality or that he was a Russian.”

Furthermore, we know Grove’s “Russian origin” doesn’t mean ethnic Russian, since we know he wasn’t; it means from the Russian empire. But I’ve quoted seven or eight newer sources say he was from Ukraine. I think they’re all saying the same thing, but Grove is dated in not acknowledging Ukraine in the Russian empire.

We all know Ukraine was in the Russian empire and we all know and agree that Borkiewicz was from there. This isn’t an argument about where Bortkiewicz was from or even where sources say he was from: they all agree. But some of them phrase it differently, not because they disagree about Bortkiewicz, but because they identify countries colonized by Russia with different language. It’s about acknowledging Ukraine in the Russian empire, as up-to-date, decolonized sources do. —Michael Z. 19:06, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

In light of all these sources, it’s also acceptable, accurate, and more precise and comprehensive to say he was “from Ukraine in the Russian Empire.”  —Michael Z. 19:12, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

I can't agree, we have plenty of sources (such as Jeremiah A. Johnson 2016) that describe Bortkiewicz as Russian. So the descirption: "Russian and Austrian composer of Polish origins" is as close as possible to what the sources say. As for his place of birth, Kharkiv is mentioned, which seems sufficient. Marcelus (talk) 19:31, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't agree at all with this edit which there seems to be no consensus for. The Status Quo should be kept. Aza24 (talk) 03:43, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

If there is consensus to revert to the previous status quo before this month's IP edits, I support that. Thank you for taking the time to comment on this, @Aza24. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 04:40, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Russian-born Austrian seems reasonable to me, but I am also fine with Russian-Austrian, since he spent half of his life as a citzen of the Russian Empire. Side note: Polish Wikipedia calls him 'of Polish origin' because of his parents, presumably... if anyone cares to fix it (by adding the Russian/Austrian part). I am also fine with adding 'of Polish origin' to the lead, but what is the source take on that? Do they mention the Polish connection? This topic is discussed in [23]. Given the discussion Bortkiewicz nationality there, I think it would justify adding 'of Polish origin' (that source also supports the Russian part, per subject self-identificaiton, and Austrian, per later citizenship). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:47, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Ukrainian composer

The article misleadingly labels Bortkiewicz as a Russian composer. Bortkiewicz was born and grew up in a Ukrainian city of Kharkiv. Even though at the time Kharkiv was a part of the Russian Empire (much like Helsinki or Warsaw), it was never a Russian town. Can you please update his biographical information to include Ukraine. Thank you! 2600:1017:B837:4B56:8CB4:15BC:28EC:3A8B (talk) 14:32, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

See the discussion above Marcelus (talk) 14:44, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above doesn’t reflect today's reality as the sources cited continue to present a colonial view of Ukraine. Unfortunately, in my experience, Wikipedia does not provide for a nuanced discussion. Bortkiewicz was a cosmopolitan man, so pinning him down to one nationality or ethnicity or, more importantly, ridding him of another, prompts further discussion. Yet when one searches for his name, the top results bring him up as a Russian composer, which is misleading. There are numerous sources that identify Bortkiewicz as a Ukrainian composer. Here are a few:

Dissertation from Kharkiv National University identifies him as Ukrainian in the first sentence:

THEORETICAL FOUNDATIONS OF MODERN SCIENCE AND PRACTICE

Boosey&Hawkes collection of Ukrainian Composers:

https://www.boosey.com/cr/news/Explore-Music-by-Ukrainian-Composers/101910

an article from Euromaidan press

https://euromaidanpress.com/2020/12/24/christmas-with-bortkiewicz-free-online-concert-to-commemorate-ukrainian-composer/

Piano Classics release of Bortkiewicz

https://www.piano-classics.com/articles/b/bortkiewicz-piano-concertos-2-3/

More Ukrainian sources, in Ukrainian:

A 2017 article about a Festival in Kyiv dedicated to 140th year of the composer's birth, where he is described as a Ukrainian composer in the first sentence of the article:

https://life.pravda.com.ua/culture/2017/03/21/223237/

A publishing house "Melosvit", Bortkiewicz op.21

https://melosvit.com.ua/noti-dlya-fortepiano/bortkevich-sergij-malenkij-mandrivnik

An article  from a Ukrainian Journal: Music

https://mus.art.co.ua/serhiy-bortkevych-u-koli-druziv-z-khkhi-stolittia/

I hope the editing team makes the appropriate changes that acknowledge the growing consensus to identify Bortkiewicz as a Ukrainian composer. 2600:1017:B8C4:5BD7:8AE:1ECE:5A06:804D (talk) 00:45, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

I have registered at Wiki to make the changes. The comment above is from me. Tyulyasho (talk) 03:49, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

@Tyulyasho: The matter of Bortkiewicz' ethnicity was discussed extensively in August 2023. After much back and forth, it appears that a consensus was reached. You have provided new sources (I presume they're new; I haven't had time to thoroughly compare your sources to those already discussed). After the extensive discussion above, it is unlikely that more sources are going to change the consensus. But you are free to try. But I would refrain from further editing the article until you can gain the required consensus. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 11:54, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. I hope you take the time to examine the sources I provided above. The issue at hand is the first sentence of this Wikipedia entry, misleadingly identifying Bortkiewicz as Russian. I have attempted to show a growing consensus among music scholars, performers and publishers to acknowledge Bortiewicz as a Ukrainian composer, however my previous comment was left without answer for 6 days. What would be a way for me to gain the consensus if editors refuse to consider new sources and just revert back to status quo, please advise.

The sources I have used to correct the article yesterdays are below:

https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc1833425/m1/12/

P 4- identifying Bortkiewicz as a Ukrainian composer

https://knmau.com.ua/wp-content/uploads/levkulych-dysertatsiya.pdf

P. 5 S. Bortkiewicz is one of the most prominent representatives of the Ukrainian musical culture of the first half of the XX century and a bright representative of the romantic art of this period.

https://books.google.com/books?id=ioUHEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA418&lpg=PA418&dq=борткевіч%20сергій&source=bl&ots=yQRNeTVf0s&sig=ACfU3U10aeHapaLYcozvlAJDcE97eRd1SA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjJ57O3wd-BAxW7L1kFHZ4bAJs4HhDoAXoECAQQAg#v=onepage&q=борткевіч%20сергій&f=false

First sentences identifies Bortkiewicz as a Ukrainian composer

https://naurok.com.ua/sergiy-bortkevich-nova-storinka-ukra-nsko-muzichno-kulturi-hh-stolittya-vikonavskiy-ta-stilistichniy-aspekti-238116.html

Page 3- identifies Bortkiewicz as a Ukrainian composer Tyulyasho (talk) 13:16, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

@Tyulyasho: I do not choose to wade into the mire regarding ethnic identity -- all such discussions are entirely too dramatic for my taste. I only recommend that you tread lightly here as this subject has already been thoroughly hashed out, and you are unlikely to change the minds of many editors after such a lengthy discussion. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 13:40, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Not sure what your recommendation of “treading lightly” means. I don’t believe any of my comments suggested any dramatic attitudes. If you don’t have the time/interest to examine the presented evidence, perhaps other editors may pitch in. Tyulyasho (talk) 14:07, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

What I mean by "treading lightly" is not changing things that have already been decided without getting new consensus for the changes. Discussions sometimes take time; there's no deadline. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 14:57, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

I’ve only made changes because I assumed that there was no opposition to the newly presented evidence. The discussion from August that I was pointed to after my initial request suggested to me that editors were active on this page as most conversations in that August thread took place between August 8-9, 13-18. Yet, my October 6 comment did not yield a response for six days until I’ve made changes to the entry, and only then I was once again pointed to a previous discussion. I’m concerned about your comment that it is “unlikely that more sources are going to change the consensus”. In which case it begs a question: what procedures does the editorial board use to ensure this article’s accuracy? Tyulyasho (talk) 16:30, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Tread lightly? Lol Walter White is that you? Chasetry78 (talk) 21:03, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Free to try alright, looks like your mind is already made up Chasetry78 (talk) 21:01, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

There is no editorial board at Wikipedia. Wikipedia is entirely created and edited by editors like you and me. What assurances we have of accuracy come from the deliberative process by which facts are discussed and sources evaluated. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 17:12, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

This was my assumption as well, however it appears that editors give preferences to certain sources over other ones without making it clear why.

For example, the first citation in the article comes from an academic paper, so I presented four other papers to counter that view. Yet, no grounds were given as to why that first source was more reputable, accurate or definitive than the other four, and my edits were simply reverted. I will give it a rest for a few days and won’t comment further, but I hope this discussion continues. Tyulyasho (talk) 17:34, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

The first of the sources listed by you seems sufficient to include in my opinion the information about his Ukrainianness, but sources identyfing him as a Russian and Austrian are equally strong, if not stronger. What do you say about: was a Russian, Ukrainian, and Austrian Romantic composer and pianist of Polish origins? Marcelus (talk) 17:48, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm not going to get entangled in another prolonged tussle about this marginal composer, so let me be brief:

• I support the status quo.
• Failing that, I support deleting all mentions of Bortkiewicz's nationality and ethnicity from the lead as a compromise as happened briefly before the current status quo.
• I oppose any mention of him as a Ukrainian composer. Most of the new sources come from Ukrainian sources which cannot be trusted to be impartial given that they may have a nationalist agenda. (In fact, some Western sources post-2022 may also be similarly compromised.) No other sources I have read confirm that Bortkiewicz was ethnically a Ukrainian, spoke Ukrainian, or was involved in any significant way with Ukrainian culture. The only established facts remain: Bortkiewicz was an ethnic Pole, self-identified as Russian in print (and was referred to as such by other contemporaneous sources), and was a naturalized Austrian citizen. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 18:12, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

If there is so much mixed information about his ethnicity, and in keeping with MOS:ETHNICITY, I recommend removing the information altogether, especially from the article lede. So:

From:

Sergei Bortkiewicz (Polish: Sergiusz Bortkiewicz; Russian: Сергей Эдуардович Борткевич; 28 February 1877 [O.S. 16 February] – 25 October 1952) was a Russian and Austrian Romantic composer and pianist. Born in the Russian Empire, he moved to Vienna in 1922 and became a naturalized Austrian citizen in 1926.

To:

Sergei Bortkiewicz (Russian: Сергей Эдуардович Борткевич; 28 February 1877 [O.S. 16 February] – 25 October 1952) was a Romantic composer and pianist. Born in the Russian Empire, he moved to Vienna in 1922 and became a naturalized Austrian citizen in 1926.

Here, I have removed the polish spelling of his name, since there is no indication in the article that he ever used a Polish name.

Similarly, I would recommend removing all categories listing him as a Polish anything (being born to Polish parents does not make you Polish, unless you've lived in Poland yourself). WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 18:22, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Why is mentioning the composer’s Austrian citizenship, obtained in 1926, preferable to his childhood and youth years he had spent in Kharkiv and other Ukrainian regions? He came back to his home time after time, composed in Ukraine, got married in Ukraine, and assumed a teaching position in Kharkiv until he was forced to flee in the aftermaths of the Russian Revolution. Tyulyasho (talk) 14:42, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

It is quite an astonishing admission of bias from —CurryTime7-24 that clearly compromises the intellectual integrity of this discussion. Do you dismiss scholarly research purely on the basis of the country of origin? If so, it clearly violates Wikipedia’s AGF principle. Your statement “Ukrainian sources cannot be trusted” would not hold water in any serious inquiry. Furthermore, the sources I have provided for the opening sentence of the article edit were all published prior to 2022 and come from different countries, if that is what you are concerned about:

University of Texas, USA, 2021,

Kyiv, Ukraine, 2021

Melbourne, Australia, 2020

Lutsk, Ukraine, 2021.

Besides the above, I have provided other sources that refer to Bortkiewicz as a Ukrainian composer, yet you continue to claim you have encountered none.

Your statement reads as a warning to anyone attempting to challenge the status quo to not even try because one of the editors is “not going to get entangled in another prolonged tussle about this marginal composer.” What gives you an authority to decide on the superiority of scholarship?

I’m puzzled about how to proceed from here given such statements of dismissal from one of the editors. Tyulyasho (talk) 14:45, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

This looks pretty bad, looks like you have major problems with Ukrainians Chasetry78 (talk) 21:07, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

This edit still does not address the issue at hand, which is that Bortkiewicz comes up as a Russian composer in Wiki search. Tyulyasho (talk) 14:40, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

The confidence with which the editors insist on continuing to label Bortkiewicz a Russian composer is perhaps indicative of a blind spot that exist in the western view of that region, which describes everything there as Russian. Describing something as Russian is sort of a short hand that is encompassing and diminishing at the same time.

By presenting various sources in this discussion, I was trying to show that colonial attitudes toward Ukraine are changing, a growing number of musicians, publishers, and researchers are referring to Bortkiewicz as a Ukrainian composer. I think the Wikipedia article should reflect these changes given how widely it is used worldwide. While the complexities of the composer’s life path are discussed in the article, it is the first sentence that positions him in a certain context.

I think that introducing him to the reader as a Ukrainian Romantic composer and pianist will not diminish other parts of his identity, and it will simply identify him as a person who comes from a part of the world that has a distinct name beyond the Russian label.

I won’t link any more sources on Bortkiewicz as I’m yet to receive a legitimate critique of the deficiencies of the ones I’ve already provided, however I ask you to consider this article from the Yale Daily News about the subject of Decolonizing Eastern European and Eurasian Studies. I believe this quote sheds light on our issue at hand:

“Russocentrism in academia didn’t appear out of nowhere. Russia is indeed the largest country in the region. Yet, academics, for example, don’t study East Asia exclusively through the lens of China. The reason goes beyond mere geography — for centuries, the Russian Empire, the Soviet Union and now the Russian Federation have been erasing and assimilating nations. For centuries, Russia’s fierce propaganda has attempted to associate the whole region exclusively with the Russian nation.”

https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2022/12/08/stasiuk-decolonizing-eastern-european-and-eurasian-studies/

I am hoping that the editors will consider the possibility that they are not seeing the full picture and that we can continue this discussion in the spirit of good faith. Just for a moment, imagine yourself on the other side of this argument and you may find that your position is not as unshakable as it might seem to you now.   Tyulyasho (talk) 14:51, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Please read the earlier discussion. Despite being born in Ukraine, Bortkiewicz certainly identified himself as Russian. And he referred to the country he was born in as "Little Russia" or "Southern Russia". Identifying him as Russian is certainly not the result of any false beliefs prevailing in the Western academia. Marcelus (talk) 19:17, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Yet, you and other editors describe him as Russian and not ”Little Russian” or “Southern Russian”, if these were the words of the composer himself, why not put them in the article? The answer is that we don’t use these descriptions anymore as they would be considered inappropriate. This shows me that the editors are open to the idea that just because things were called a certain way eighty or one hundred years ago, certain descriptions don’t serve us any longer. The colonial attitudes toward Ukraine are changing, and labeling someone, who was born in Ukraine while it was part of the Russian Empire, ‘Russian’ is no longer appropriate.

As this is not the first time you referred me to an earlier discussion, please believe me when I say that I have read it. In fact, it was helpful to me at the time to determine what new sources I could offer to the editors to make them see that the consensus to call Bortkiewicz a Ukrainian or Ukrainian born composer is there and needs to be reflected in the Wikipedia article. I’ll examine some of your previous comments, put three of them below in their entirety, and address your concerns with citations I think will mitigate each one.

1

“To summarize: there is no reason to remove from the article about Bortkiewicz the mention of his Russian and Austrian nationality and Polish derivations, none of the sources describe him as a Ukrainian artist, so we can't include that. Marcelus (talk) 07:35, 14 August 2023 (UTC)”

I have addressed your concern about him being described a Ukrainian artist with this citation:

https://knmau.com.ua/wp-content/uploads/levkulych-dysertatsiya.pdf

Page. 5 “S. Bortkiewicz is one of the most prominent representatives of the Ukrainian musical culture of the first half of the XX century and a bright representative of the romantic art of this period.”

2

“Let me repeat again: please provide source that clearly states Bortkiewicz was Ukrainian. Marcelus (talk) 13:43, 14 August 2023 (UTC)”

https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc1833425/m1/12/

Page 4- identifying Bortkiewicz as a renown Ukrainian composer and pianist

3

“I can't agree, we have plenty of sources (such as Jeremiah A. Johnson 2016) that describe Bortkiewicz as Russian. So the description: "Russian and Austrian composer of Polish origins" is as close as possible to what the sources say. As for his place of birth, Kharkiv is mentioned, which seems sufficient. Marcelus (talk) 19:31, 15 August 2023 (UTC)”

This was a bit unclear to me. You said “plenty of sources” but only included one. So to counter that, I provided four papers that identified him as a Ukrainian composer or representative of Ukrainian culture when I offered my edit to the opening sentence of the article.

I have yet to receive an adequate critique of the sources I provided, which would be helpful to understand what further evidence I can provide to the editors to make it clear that the current description of the composer needs to change.

Please consider the following: when a musician begins his program notes with - “music by Ukrainian composer Sergei Bortkiewicz,” or musicologist starts his paper with - “examining works of Ukrainian composer Sergei Bortkiewicz,” or an article in a newspaper appears about Ukrainian composers and Bortkiewicz is one of them, what do you think all those examples mean? Tyulyasho (talk) 16:22, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Doesn’t look like editors are ready for the full picture, pretty stuck in their ways Chasetry78 (talk) 21:10, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

I will reiterate that, since Bortkiewicz's nationality is in question, but also, since his nationality is not a significant part of his notability (i.e. he is not notable because he is Ukrainian, or Russian, or Polish, he is notable because he is a composer), MOS:ETHNICITY demands that we not mention the fact at all. Such matters of national pride do not fit the neutrality of Wikipedia. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 23:08, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't object not mentioning his nationality at all, I object mentioning only Ukrainian or omitting Russian nationality. Marcelus (talk) 23:12, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

As of right now there are two mentions of Russia in the opening sentence ( Russia and Russian Empire) and none of Ukraine. Tyulyasho (talk) 16:24, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Pretty clear you object calling him Ukrainian, not other Chasetry78 (talk) 21:11, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

I think judging the degree of significance of one’s nationality is rather arbitrary as what one perceives as national pride maybe a question of fair description to another. With that being said, I see your point as you referred to  MOS:ETHNICITY . Let us examine the opening sentence: “The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable”.  Bortkiewicz’s current description is heavy on national and geographical labels: Russian, Austrian, Polish, Russian Empire, Vienna and Austria, and only three words describe what he is notable for- Romantic composer and pianist.

I believe that Ukrainian Romantic composer and pianist description is the most succinct and inclusive. Moreover, it is supported by many examples both in academia and performance circles to refer to him as such. Tyulyasho (talk) 16:23, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Referring to him as a "Ukrainian composer" is not enough, as most RS do not describe him that way, moreover, his biography suggests otherwise: he did not feel Ukrainian, but Russian, and held Russian and Austrian citizenship. He came from a Polish family. However, I understand your argument about the excess of nationality descriptors, which is why I am inclined to @WikiDan61's suggestion to limit description just to "was a Romantic composer" only. Marcelus (talk) 16:53, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

@Marcelus

I disagree that

" Referring to him as a "Ukrainian composer" is not enough, as most RS do not describe him that way"

there are only three citations for this article as of now. I have provided ten so far that identify him with Ukraine. Tyulyasho (talk) 15:03, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

I think judging the degree of significance of one’s nationality is rather arbitrary as what one perceives as national pride maybe a question of fair description to another. With that being said, I see your point as you referred to  MOS:ETHNICITY . Let us examine the opening sentence: “The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable”.  Bortkiewicz’s current description is heavy on national and geographical labels: Russian, Austrian, Polish, Russian Empire, Vienna and Austria, and only three words describe what he is notable for- Romantic composer and pianist.

I believe that Ukrainian Romantic composer and pianist description is the most succinct and inclusive. Moreover, it is supported by many examples both in academia and performance circles to refer to him as such. Tyulyasho (talk) 16:23, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

@Tyulyash: Per MOS:ETHNICITY, is Bortkiewicz notable because he is a Ukrainian composer. (I.e. are there no other Ukrainian composers, and therefore the fact that he is a composer who is Ukrainian is remarkable?) Or, is notable as a composer, who happens to have been born in a place. I believe the latter is the case, and therefore, Wikipedia guidelines recommend that we not highlight his nationality. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 17:13, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

@ WikiDan61

Identifying the place of origin of someone is not the same as highlighting it. Just as identifying someone’s dates doesn’t make the fact they that were born, lived, and died remarkable.

It is simply a way to communicate the information about the time and place of someone’s existence. As it is a common practice in Wikipedia to first mention the dates, then the place of origin, and then the activity for which the person is considered notable, I think it is appropriate to use the same format for Bortkiewicz.

Here are some examples:

Edward Benjamin Britten, Baron Britten OM CH (22 November 1913 – 4 December 1976, aged 63) was an English composer, conductor, and pianist.

Leoš Janáček (Czech pronunciation: [ˈlɛoʃ ˈjanaːtʃɛk] ⓘ,[1][2] 3 July 1854 – 12 August 1928) was a Czech composer, musical theorist, folklorist, publicist, and teacher.

Arvo Pärt (Estonian pronunciation: [ˈɑrʋo ˈpært]; born 11 September 1935) is an Estonian composer of contemporary classical music.

Johann Sebastian Bach[n 2] (31 March [O.S. 21 March] 1685 – 28 July 1750) was a German composer and musician of the late Baroque period.

Sergei Vasilyevich Rachmaninoff[a][b] (1 April [O.S. 20 March] 1873 – 28 March 1943) was a Russian composer, virtuoso pianist, and conductor.

Antonio Lucio Vivaldi[n 2] (4 March 1678 – 28 July 1741) was an Italian composer, virtuoso violinist and impresario of Baroque music.

Claude Debussy[n 1] (French: [aʃil klod dəbysi]; 22 August 1862 – 25 March 1918) was a French composer.

William Billings (October 7, 1746 – September 26, 1800) is regarded as the first American choral composer[1] and leading member of the First New England School.

Notice how modern names are used to identify places of origins of the above composers and not those that were used during their lifetime unless we still identify those regions by the same name.

Bach- German and not from Duchy of Saxe-Eisenach of Holy Roman Empire.

Arvo Part -Estonian  and not Soviet in spite of the fact that from 1940-1991 his country was occupied by Soviet Union.

Janacek- Czech and not from Austrian Empire

Vivaldi- Italian and not from Republic of Venice

William Billings- American and not British American

Similar approach could be used for the opening of our article in question. For example:

Sergei Bortkiewicz (28 February 1877 [O.S. 16 February] – 25 October 1952) was a Ukrainian composer and pianist.

I would follow this by a sentence that actually says something about the activity he is notable for or describe his music.

I am happy to contribute, although I would like to understand what is the standard for accepting citations for this article before I make efforts to find appropriate sources. Tyulyasho (talk) 02:27, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

The crucial point that you overlooked is that at least most of these composers identify or identified as these nationalities. In some cases (e.g. Janáček, Debussy, Billings), their nationalities were also an essential part of what made them notable.

Bortkiewicz never identified himself on the record as anything other than Russian. His family was Polish and he later became a naturalized Austrian—these are indisputable facts. Whether he identified with Ukraine at all, spoke the language, or exercised any influence and participation in its culture as a thing apart from Russian culture is unclear at best. Anything else outside of that is speculation.

Moreover, if one were to apply your logic consistently, Aram Khachaturian would be "Georgian", E. T. A. Hoffmann would be "Russian", and Béla Bartók would be "Romanian"—even though no evidence attesting to these exists, aside from the fact that they were born in countries that later became other countries. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 03:28, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

@Tyulyasho: I have to agree with CurryTime7-24 on this point: the composers you've noted all self-identified as the given nationality, and are heavily identified with the musical identity of their given countries. The same is not true for Bortkiewicz; he neither self-identified as a Ukrainian nor do others universally identify him as such. Your arguments here are not gaining WP:CONSENSUS. My approach (to remove all mentions of nationality from the lead) has gained some consensus, and follows Wikipedia guidelines. Your suggestion has neither of these advantages. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 11:33, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

I concur. Although I'm satisfied with current wording, but because it seems to cause controversy and probably will do so in the future, it's better to remove mention of nationality at all. Marcelus (talk) 11:50, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

@CurryTime7-24 @WikiDan61

My comment above addressed a specific remark by WikiDan61 about wether “Wikipedia guidelines recommend that we not highlight his nationality”. There is a common practice in Wiki articles to start with name, dates and place of origin to describe a person on interest, as I have shown in the examples above.  

I have never suggested edits for Aram Khachaturian, E.T.A Hoffmann or Bella Bartok in this article.

As I have offered an extensive list of sources that refer to Bortkiewicz as a Ukarinain composer, I’m confident that they can counter your position which so far rests on the following statements:

“Bortkiewicz never identified himself on the record as anything other than Russian”

And

“Bortkiewicz was an ethnic Pole, self-identified as Russian in print (and was referred to as such by other contemporaneous sources).”

As the composer’s self-identification holds such a powerful position in your line of argument, I think it should be available as a direct citation. In all of my research about him, I have encountered none - no direct quotes of such a statement. Please advise on where I can find one?

“Bortkiewicz was an ethnic Pole” - this is not quite true. While his mother was of the Polish origin, his father was not, as he was from Vitebsk. Still, you hold his mother's Polish ethnicity as a way to diminish his Ukrainian connection. Please consider that Bortkiewicz's family was a very important contributor to the development of the Kharkiv business and cultural life.

“The composer's father, Eduard Bortkiewicz, was the founder and owner of a distillery, glass factory, several houses, and a trading house in Kharkiv. Besides, he was an elected chairman of the local Noble assembly, became a member of the Zemstvo assembly, and for more than 25 years on a voluntary basis served as a member of the commission for conscription. He also promoted educational activities: in 1898 his company opened a library/reading-room, while factories of Bortkiewicz conducted tours for schoolchildren. The composer’s mother was an honorary member of the local branch of the Imperial Russian Music Society, became a co-founder of the first in the city music school of IRMS, participated the committee of the Society for the Care of Needy Pupils of the Kharkiv Music College. Sometimes she performed as a pianist, was a Maecenas, etc. Her brother, the composer’s uncle, opened in 1890 one of the first theaters in Kharkiv”

See page 8:

https://knmau.com.ua/wp-content/uploads/yakubov-dysertatsiya.pdf

“self-identified as Russian in print (and was referred to as such by other contemporaneous sources).”

As I have provided many of today's contemporary sources that refer to Bortkiwicz as a Ukrainian composer, I would argue they offer a more appropriate language to describe someone who comes from Ukraine than those from the last century.

As to “self-identified,” again no direct source is provided by yourself or other editors on the page.

As there are many scholarly papers available that identify Bortkiewitz with Ukraine, I think a further examination of the source that claims to correctly examine Bortkiewitcz's feelings about his self-identification is appropriate. Tyulyasho (talk) 15:05, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

@CurryTime7-24 @Marcelus @WikiDan61

I would like to point out to the editors that there is this announcement at the top of the article:

This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed.

There are currently only three citations for this article that support the editor's current perspective. I have provided ten more, yet there was no legitimate criticism offered as to their inefficiency and why they can’t be added to the article. I hope the editors can let go of their personal attachments to the older sources and allow others to update the information in the article according to the latest available scholarship and practice. Tyulyasho (talk) 15:07, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

You have three editors who after much discussion remain skeptical of your changes, yet you still insist that your view is right and others are wrong. I'm not sure what else there is to say. Like WikiDan61 (thank you so much for devoting your time here, by the way!), I'm bouncing out of this discussion as there seems to be no consensus to change the status quo. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 16:22, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Tyulyash I appreciate your patience but editors are dodging you, probably not even reading your arguments Chasetry78 (talk) 21:15, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

@Tyulyasho: I'm tapping out of this discussion. I don't see there being a path to consensus here. Good luck folks. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 15:32, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

I actually think we achieved consensus. @Tyulyasho is just bludgeoning now. Also @Tyulyasho mnay Polish people were born in Vitebsk, Edward Bortkiewicz was one of them. Marcelus (talk) 17:23, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

@Marcelus @CurryTime7-24 @WikiDan61

Your replies offered only personal opinions that were not supported by evidence. My insistence is backed up by a number of sources, none of which you chose to consider. Your insistence on Bortkiewicz’s alleged self-identification as a Russian is nowhere to be found, and that is your only argument against my numerous sources, and it lacks proof.  

The only consensus here is that you would not allow any new contributions to the article in spite of Wikipedia flagging this article for the need of additional citations for verification. I gave detailed answers to your every concern, going to the previous discussion and providing citations where I could.

Now, you are accusing me of bludgeoning. Tyulyasho (talk) 00:08, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

@Marcelus I see that you have added a few more citations from the same source. However, nowhere in that article is there proof that “Bortkiewicz did not consider himself Ukrainian.” Page 42 that you cite says:

”As mentioned previously, Bortkiewicz did not consider himself Ukrainian, but

rather Russian. He was against the Bolshevik takeover and opposed to Ukrainian independence from Russia. As the son of a wealthy landowner under Imperial Russian rule, the Bortkiewicz family preferred things as they were.”

If this is what you are referring to, then you must realize that it is a reference to another section elsewhere. Please specify Tyulyasho (talk) 04:18, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@Tyulyasho please restore the conten you removed. First you asked for more sources, then you removing them because they don't suit your agenda. Marcelus (talk) 08:26, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

I restored the above content almost immediately yesterday, as well as added one more citation and slightly modified its grammar. The earlier reference the other editor is asking for is on page i. The source confirms that Bortkiewicz identified as Russian, refers to him repeatedly as Russian (e.g. pp. 21, 26, 28), and at one point even describes this pride as plausibly chauvinist (p. 49). Interestingly, it also mentions that Bortkiewicz was thought of as Polish by the Russian émigré community (p. 26). —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 15:13, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@CurryTime7-24

It doesn’t matter how many times you quote your one and only source, it provides no proof of what it alleges - that Bortkieiwcz did not consider himself a Ukrainian composer.

It is very obvious the author alludes to it throughout the article but offers no evidence besides speculations.

Page 21

“The outbreak of World War I in 1914 changed Bortkiewicz’s life. Being a

Russian, he was initially under house arrest and abruptly left Germany by train through Sweden. as he described, “For the first time I was the victim of fickle fate: I was driven out as an enemy over the North Sea, out of the country where I had lived for so many years and which I loved,” Bortkiewicz lamented. “

Those are not Bortkieiwcz’s words, he doesn’t say anything about being Russian. Check his quote

Page 26

"Although I have a good reputation in

Germany, I still am a 'foreigner' and now one is looked upon very unfavorably if one is

not a genuine German, and there are even fewer opportunities for any position."

Bortkiewicz seemed to be an outsider wherever he went. Russians considered him Polish because of his mother's heritage.

Again, Bortkieiwcz says nothing about his self identification as Russian.

Page 26

“Bortkiewicz was forced to leave Germany yet again being of Russian origin, he

was now facing persecution from the Nazis and saw his name being deleted from all

music programs. Since they had previously established citizenship in Austria, Bortkiewicz and his wife returned to Vienna in 1935.”

Again, no quote from Bortkieiwcz. These are author's attempts to paint him as Russian.

Page 28

“World War II caused Bortkiewicz and his wife's situation to deteriorate. The

publication and performance of Bortkiewiez's music, which considered of Russian origin, was prohibited in Germany.”

His music was considered Russian by Germans, not by Bortkieiwcz himself.

Page 49

Despite Bortkiewicz’s plausible Russian chauvinism, his version, due to its unique treatment of the leading tone, appears to contain traces of Ukrainian Folk elements as defined by Soroker. One should also note that Mamontova acknowledged Russian and Ukrainian tunes in her title Children’s Songs on Russian and Ukrainian Tunes.

Can you please explain “plausible Russian chauvinism?”

And the opening statement: і

“Despite the wide array of his compositional output in the first half of the twentieth

century, the late Romantic composer, Sergei Bortkiewicz (1877-1952), remains relatively unknown. Bortkiewicz was born and raised near Kharkov, Ukraine, but considered himself Russian.”

Again, it is alluding to Bortkieiwcz’s self identification without offering any proof of it either here or elsewhere in the article. Tyulyasho (talk) 03:12, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

You're "right" and, ipso facto, any source that contradicts your nationalist crusade is "wrong". I get it. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 03:15, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

@CurryTime7-24

"nationalist crusade" ?? How dare you, when these were YOUR words:

“I oppose any mention of him as a Ukrainian composer. Most of the new sources come from Ukrainian sources which cannot be trusted to be impartial given that they may have a nationalist agenda. (In fact, some Western sources post-2022 may also be similarly compromised.)”

You've put your prejudice in bold, so clearly it's you the one that holds nationalistic biases. Tyulyasho (talk) 16:43, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

“nationalist crusade”! Is this a serious editor? 2600:4041:52E3:4E00:E5F0:67E2:9290:3577 (talk) 16:36, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

@Marcelus See above comment.

Please discuss any additions to the article on the talk page first. Citing the same source more than once does not count as more sources. Tyulyasho (talk) 03:09, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

There is no reason to discuss every addition, especially the one based on reliable sources. It's a good custom to discuss controversial changes. You demanded sources for his Russian identity, when I provided them you baselessly try to undermine them; it's pretty clear that you don't really care about sources, but about your own agenda. Marcelus (talk) 07:10, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

@Marcelus Since you have never addressed your fellow editor's prejudices, I assume you hold the same views. Attempts to make the composer more Russian by citing your one and only source (not sources) multiple times is a disingenuous attempt to push your fringe views on this article. Tyulyasho (talk) 16:43, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

It seems there is no consensus about ethnicity. Different sources claim different information about this aspect. So we could write just Ukrainian-born romantic but not russian or polish etc. A1 (talk) 19:36, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

@A1

Thank you for weighing in. I’m hoping that sources that I have provided so far could be included in the article. Perhaps we should wait a few days for other editors to comment. Tyulyasho (talk) 00:09, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes clearly not Russian 2600:4041:52E3:4E00:884B:49EE:3764:2F80 (talk) 23:44, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Break

It's clear that this article has degenerated into a screaming match and that evidence no longer matters one way or another. My own feelings about what the lead ought to state was made clear earlier in this discussion, as well as the one from last summer. Given the contentious nature of this subject's identity, it would be best to omit all mentions and implications of nationality and ethnicity from the lead. Otherwise, it will surely continue to be a proxy battlefield for competing ideologies ad nauseam. I will no longer participate in this discussion, but will keep a watch on the page for a while longer. In the meantime, I will seek dispute resolution for this matter in the hopes of resolving it once and for all. Lots of luck, folks! —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 19:39, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Ukrainian composer- sources

This article has been flagged by Wikipedia for the need of citations for verification.

When I tried to offer additional sources,  editors   CurryTime7-24, Marcelus and WikiDan61 refused to consider these sources as they oppose their current views of the composer.

While it has been a practice in the past, it is no longer appropriate to refer to people from Ukraine as “Russians”.

Please see the most current list of sources from academic papers, publishing houses, and news sources that identify Bortkieiwcz as a Ukrainian composer.

From Scholarly Literature:

1

https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc1833425/m1/12/

Page 4- “ Sergei Bortkiewicz was a renown Ukrainian composer and pianist.”

2

https://is.jamu.cz/th/evcsx/Plny_text_prace.pdf

Page 2- The Bachelor thesis „Piano work of Sergei Bortkiewicz" deals with life and artistic activities of the Ukrainian pianist and composer Sergei Bortkiewicz

3

https://knmau.com.ua/wp-content/uploads/levkulych-dysertatsiya.pdf

Page 5 - “Bortkiewicz is one of the most prominent representatives of the Ukrainian musical culture of the first half of the XX century and a bright representative of the romantic art of this period”

4

page 17- 18

«In accordance with the criteria set out in the definition of «national identity» in the beginning, it can be said that S. Bortkiewicz is really representative of the Ukrainian culture»

https://glieracademy.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/54-annotations.pdf#page=16

5

https://mural.maynoothuniversity.ie/10040/1/THESIS_CORRECTIONS%20COMPLETE.pdf

Page 70

“Sergei Bortkiewicz. The Ukrainian born composer was forced into nomadic wave of life in the early part of the century due to the Russian revolution and the ensuing World War.”

6

https://books.google.com/books?id=ioUHEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA418&lpg=PA418&dq=борткевіч%20сергій&source=bl&ots=yQRNeTVf0s&sig=ACfU3U10aeHapaLYcozvlAJDcE97eRd1SA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjJ57O3wd-BAxW7L1kFHZ4bAJs4HhDoAXoECAQQAg#v=onepage&q=борткевіч%20сергій&f=false

First sentences identifies Bortkiewicz as a Ukrainian composer

7

https://naurok.com.ua/sergiy-bortkevich-nova-storinka-ukra-nsko-muzichno-kulturi-hh-stolittya-vikonavskiy-ta-stilistichniy-aspekti-238116.html

Page 3- identifies Bortkiewicz as a Ukrainian composer

Music Publishers, News article

8

Boosey&Hawkes collection of Ukrainian Composers:

The Ukrainian-born Romantic composer and pianist

https://www.boosey.com/cr/news/Explore-Music-by-Ukrainian-Composers/101910

9

A publishing house "Melosvit", Bortkiewicz op.21

Sergei Bortkiewicz Ukrainian Composer

https://melosvit.com.ua/noti-dlya-fortepiano/bortkevich-sergij-malenkij-mandrivnik

10

an article from Euromaidan press.

“musicians from 8 countries will play Ukrainian composer Bortkiewicz’s music online.”

https://euromaidanpress.com/2020/12/24/christmas-with-bortkiewicz-free-online-concert-to-commemorate-ukrainian-composer/

11

Piano Classics release of piano concertos:

“Recent years have seen a slow but steady revival of the music of Sergei Bortkiewicz (1877‐1952), Ukrainian composer and pianist”

https://www.piano-classics.com/articles/b/bortkiewicz-piano-concertos-2-3/

12

The programme featured the Piano Concerto No.2 for the left Hand (1924) by Ukrainian composer Sergei Bortkiewicz

https://www.lamonnaiedemunt.be/en/mmm-online/2595-la-monnaie-in-solidarity-with-ukraine

13

STEINWAY & SONS releases A Letter | Une Lettre | Ein Brief, a survey of piano works of the Ukrainian composer Sergei Bortkiewicz

https://www.steinway.com/music-and-artists/label/a-letter-sergei-bortkiewicz-solo-piano-works-zhenni-li-cohen

14

A 2017 article about a Festival in Kyiv dedicated to 140th year of the composer's birth, where he is described as a Ukrainian composer in the first sentence of the article:

https://life.pravda.com.ua/culture/2017/03/21/223237/

In the light of this evidence,  I propose the opening sentence of the article to be:

Sergei Bortkiewicz (28 February 1877 [O.S. 16 February] – 25 October 1952) was a Ukrainian composer and pianist.

Second sentence can describe what he is notable for:

He is one of the most prominent representatives of the Ukrainian musical culture of the first half of the twentieth century and a bright representative of the romantic art of this period.

from source no. 3 Tyulyasho (talk) 16:48, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

We already answered it to you: his identity was complex, it seems that he regarted himself Russian, but also had Austrian citizenship and was of Polish origins, some sources indicate him as Ukrainian, because he was born them, ergo it's better to not mention his nationality at all in the lead. Marcelus (talk) 21:01, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

I think it’s pretty clear that he’s Ukrainian, why do you care so much to make him Russian? 2600:4041:52E3:4E00:E5F0:67E2:9290:3577 (talk) 16:42, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Because it's not "pretty clear that he's Ukrainian"; sources are at best conflicted on this issue. Marcelus (talk) 17:07, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Looks like you are saying that Ukrainians can’t have complex identities, that’s pretty biased lol. Looks like this discussion has been going on for a while, have to ho back and read it from the beginning. Chasetry78 (talk) 18:52, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

I cited another eight sources above (search on the page for “Please verify better”).

Contrary to what others have stated, there has been no consensus reached on this, some of us merely gave up on the discussion in the face of intransigence, refusal to WP:HEAR, and walls of WP:OR text about Bortkiewicz.

Contrary, this is not merely a question of “ethnicity,” but about nationality in the broad sense (for example, the Getty Research ULAN begins the summary of their nationality field with “contains reference to the nationality, culture, ethnic group, religion, or sexual orientation associated with the person or corporate body,”[24] and has much more in their Editorial Rules).[25]

The article should mention that Bortkiewicz was born and raised in Ukraine, and later worked in Ukraine.  —Michael Z. 18:57, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Looks like editors are dodging questions that can’t answer. I don’t get it, if there are 14 sources saying he is Ukrainian composer, what’s a problem? Just keep it simple, most articles about composers start with that information anyway. Chasetry78 (talk) 19:16, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

By the way, I hope everyone here has read the section “4.2 Ukrainian folk influences” in Johnson 2016, pp 42–55.[26]  —Michael Z. 19:27, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

I have read the whole paper and found it extremely problematic. It makes certain claims that are never proven.

From the beginning it announces:

“Despite the wide array of his compositional output in the first half of the twentieth

century, the late Romantic composer, Sergei Bortkiewicz (1877-1952), remains relatively unknown. Bortkiewicz was born and raised near Kharkov, Ukraine, but considered himself Russian.”

“Considered himself Russian?”  - there is never proof of that anywhere in the paper. No Bortkieiwcz’s words about his feelings, just speculations and strange terms that author invented like:

“Russian-Kharkovian roots” - there is no such a thing, and of course no reference provided.

Also, there are occasional statements like:

Page 42

"As mentioned previously, Bortkiewicz did not consider himself Ukrainian, but

rather Russian. He was against the Bolshevik takeover and opposed to Ukrainian independence from Russia. As the son of a wealthy landowner under Imperial Russian rule, the Bortkiewicz family preferred things as they were."

Yes, it was mentioned by the paper's author but never substantiated that "he did not consider himself Ukrainian but Russian?"

There are many instances like this. If you read it and try to look for Bortkieiwcz’s own words, you’ll find none.

In any case, this is just one paper, and there are many other sources that give a completely different view of the composer. It is just that editors refuse to acknowledge other research on the subject. Tyulyasho (talk) 20:14, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

I believe Johnson is a musicologist and not a Ukrainian history expert, and I don’t take his analysis of the history too seriously. For example, he quotes Bortkiewicz stating he was from “Little Russia” or “South Russia.” I take that fact at its word, but disregard Johnson’s apparent interpretation and analysis based on it about Bortkiewicz’s attitude. Instead I cited a longer expert work about those terms, which generally meant “Ukraine.”[27]

But his section on musical influences has a different significance. He clearly states that the composer being from Ukraine influenced his compositions, with detailed analysis supporting it. I’m no music expert, but this may be an important source for this article for this.  —Michael Z. 20:24, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

While you might not have taken his analysis of Ukrainian history seriously, editors used this paper as  a “proof” that Bortkieiwcz felt Russian.  

When I  offered other multiple sources on the composer, they dismissed them as if this paper was the last word on the matter.

While the paper may offer some useful musical analysis, editors did not use it to address musical matters but to prop their Russo-centric view of the composer.

Just last week, editor Marcelus changed the first paragraph to include speculations about the composer’s supposed nationalists feelings, using this quote-  “Bortkiewicz was born and raised near Kharkov, Ukraine, but considered himself Russian.”

As this was pure speculation by the paper author I thought it was incredibly dishonest to use it in this way. Tyulyasho (talk) 00:34, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

@Mzajac@Tyulyasho I got an invite in my profile to go to another board for dispute resolution, guess I’m also an editor now Chasetry78 (talk) 21:23, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

@Chasetry78

thank you for letting me know, I just made my post there. Thank you for reading the discussion, I did not anticipate for it to be so long! Tyulyasho (talk) 13:23, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Not at all, I found it interesting and appreciated your source about 2 concerto, that’s how I learned about the composer, working on this piece now. Kind of sucks that Wittgenstein did not allow others to play it, think it would’ve made Bortkiewicz much more famous, that is a first rate concerto and you can quote me lol! Chasetry78 (talk) 01:04, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

I cited another eight sources above (search on the page for “Please verify better”): Let me qoute myself from out previous discussion when I examined your "8 sources":

So in summary none of the sources describe Bortkiewicz as a "Ukrainian", moreover sources 7 and 8 (which are dedicated to Bortkiewicz's character and do not mention him in passim) explicitly say that he considered himself a Russian and cannot be described as a Ukrainian.

@Mzajac, I already proved to you once that these sources do not confirm what you say, moreover, they confirm the opposite. Do not cite them once again, as I will consider it a violation of the rules of fair discussion. Marcelus (talk) 21:31, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

And there are plenty of sources that describe him as Russian. "Sergei Bortkiewicz , a Russian pianist who lived in Austria". "Sergei Bortkiewicz ( Russian pianist )". "SERGEI BORTKIEWICZ 1877-1952 - Russia". "Russian composer Sergei Bortkiewicz'". There are more. It's clear the sources disagree, some describe him as Russian, some as Ukrainian, and so should we. This will probably make nationalists on both sides who want to lay exclusive claim to him unhappy, which seems to be always a good outcome per WP:NPOV.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:35, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

This doesn’t even have anything to do with nationalism, merely acknowledging the geography and culture the subject came from and that sources say influenced his work. (Please write about the subject, not other editors. Throwing around labels that stereotype groups of editors encourages WP:BATTLE thinking, and is no more helpful than direct personal attacks.)  —Michael Z. 14:45, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

So when it comes to sources confirming "Ukrainianness" a simple mention in passim, in the index of a paper on another topic is enough, and when it comes to "Russianness" it must be an anthropological paper, taking into account all historical and social correlations? Please, @Mzajac, if we do not respect each other and our intelligence then we will not get anywhere. Marcelus (talk) 21:25, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

@Tyulyasho and others, I examined your sources.

Out of 14 sources you provided, only first 8 are really scholary. Out of them 4 doesn't not identify Bortkiewicz as Ukrainian:

Ad 3: the source doesn't not call him "Ukrainian composer", but a "representatives of the Ukrainian musical culture"

Ad 4: likewise, the source doesn't not call him "Ukrainian composer", but a "representative of the Ukrainian culture"

Ad 5: likewise, "Ukrainian born composer"

Ad 8: likewise, "Ukrainian-born"

What's more source no. 1 calls him Ukrainian, but also ackonwledge his Russian orgins (page 6): due to his Russian origin...

Likewise, source no. 2 calls him Ukrainian, but also acknowledge him as self-identified Russian (page 16): Skladatel sám sebe považoval více za Rusa než za Ukrajince, čímž by se mohlo zdát, že bude jeho tvorba inspirovaná spíše ruskou lidovou hudbou. Jedním z důvodů byl fakt, že celé své dospívání strávil ve městě Charkov, což bylo v té době součástí Ruského impéria. Druhým důvodem byl odpor proti bolševickému převratu a nezávislosti Ukrajiny. (lit. 'The composer considered himself to be more Russian than Ukrainian, so it might seem that his work would be inspired more by Russian folk music. One of the reasons was the fact that he spent his entire adolescence in the city of Kharkov, which at the time was part of the Russian Empire. The second reason was opposition to the Bolshevik coup and the independence of Ukraine.')

Source no. 7 and 8 are written by Ukrainian scholars recently, so not really impartial.

Other sources aren't scholary so not really on the level with others.

To sum up these and other sources, including those calling Bortkiewicz a Russian and an Austrian, we are undoubtedly dealing with a figure whose national identification is not fully agreed in the sources. However, he undoubtedly considered himself a Russian. So if we are to define him in any way, he should undoubtedly be defined as a Russian, this identification should not be abandoned. Ukrainian and Austrian, and possibly Polish are optional. However, mentioning four is too many, three is already a lot.

So I see two options:

1. "was a Russian, Austrian, and Ukrainian Romantic composer and Pianist."

2. "was a Romantic composer."

Personally, I favor the second option, but both are acceptable to me. Marcelus (talk) 22:14, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

@Marcelus

I have specified that my sources include 7 academic papers, and the rest is news or articles from music publishers. As they all connect the composer with Ukraine, they provide a more current and comprehensive look at how to refer to Bortkiewicz in the opening sentence of the article, which should be - Ukrainian composer and pianist.

Your statement  “Source no. 7 and 8 are written by Ukrainian scholars recently, so not really impartial.”- disqualifies you in my opinion to be an impartial editor of any article that deals with the Eastern European region. Tyulyasho (talk) 13:26, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Dispute resolution

Posting this as an FYI for everyone: Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Sergei Bortkiewicz —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 20:09, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Sigh. It's complicated. For categories, I'd use both Russian and Ukrainian, Russian Empire>Ukrainian if it exists. For lead, I'd try something like "a Russian and Ukrainian composer of Polish origin, born in Ukraine, Russian Empire, who spend much of his life in the Empire and later, Austria". Another example of person described in similar fashion would be Gregory Alchevsky. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 23:54, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

@CurryTime7-24 @Piotrus

Is this a joke?

You are bringing back the same advisor who supports the fringe view of the article?

“Russian-born Austrian seems reasonable to me, but I am also fine with Russian-Austrian, since he spent half of his life as a citzen of the Russian Empire. Side note: Polish Wikipedia calls him 'of Polish origin' because of his parents, presumably... if anyone cares to fix it (by adding the Russian/Austrian part). I am also fine with adding 'of Polish origin' to the lead, but what is the source take on that? Do they mention the Polish connection? This topic is discussed in [23]. Given the discussion Bortkiewicz nationality there, I think it would justify adding 'of Polish origin' (that source also supports the Russian part, per subject self-identificaiton, and Austrian, per later citizenship). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:47, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]”

Is this a joke?

You are bringing back the same advisor who supports the fringe view of the article?

“Russian-born Austrian seems reasonable to me, but I am also fine with Russian-Austrian, since he spent half of his life as a citzen of the Russian Empire. Side note: Polish Wikipedia calls him 'of Polish origin' because of his parents, presumably... if anyone cares to fix it (by adding the Russian/Austrian part). I am also fine with adding 'of Polish origin' to the lead, but what is the source take on that? Do they mention the Polish connection? This topic is discussed in Given the discussion Bortkiewicz nationality there, I think it would justify adding 'of Polish origin' (that source also supports the Russian part, per subject self-identificaiton, and Austrian, per later citizenship). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:47, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]”

Let me get this straight: you ignore the 14 sources I have provided, plus the 8 sources that Michael Z has provided, but we have to address your one random (Gregory Alchevsky) article that supports the fringe view of the composer?

How is  _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus}  an authority on this? Tyulyasho (talk) 02:02, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Let me get this straight: you ignore the 14 sources I have provided, plus the 8 sources that Michael Z has provided, but we have to address your one random (Gregory Alchevsky) article that supports the fringe view of the composer?

How is  _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus}  an authority on this? Tyulyasho (talk) 02:01, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

It isn't necessary to insult other editors with whom you disagree. Civility is the fourth pillar of Wikipedia. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:06, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

RFC: Ethnicity of Sergei Bortkiewicz

How should the ethnicity/nationality of Sergei Bortkiewicz be characterized in the lede sentence of this article and the short description? Please choose one of the options listed below. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:56, 7 November 2023 (UTC) Robert McClenon (talk) 21:51, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Please provide your answer, of Option 1 through Option 4, with a brief statement in the Survey section. Do not reply to other editors in the Survey. That is what the Discussion is for.

Option 1:

• Sergei Bortkiewicz; 28 February 1877 [O.S. 16 February] – 25 October 1952) was a Russian and Austrian Romantic composer and pianist of Polish origins/heritage/parentage/descent.

Option 2:

• Sergei Bortkiewicz; 28 February 1877 [O.S. 16 February] – 25 October 1952) was a Romantic composer and pianist.

Option 3:

• Sergei Bortkiewicz (28 February 1877 [O.S. 16 February] – 25 October 1952) was a Ukrainian Romantic composer and pianist.

Option 4:

• Sergei Bortkiewicz (28 February 1877 [O.S. 16 February] – 25 October 1952) was a Ukrainian-born Romantic composer and pianist.

Option 5

• Sergei Bortkiewicz; 28 February 1877 [O.S. 16 February] – 25 October 1952) was a Romantic composer and pianist. He was born into a noble family of Polish origin in Kharkiv, Ukraine, as a subject of the Russian Empire, and also worked in Austria.

Survey

• Option 1, alternatively Option 2. Options 3 and 4 are ignoring all other aspects of Bortkiewicz identity, which are far more importan than the fact that he was born on the territory of today's Ukraine.Marcelus (talk) 00:46, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
• Option 5. It is better to clearly identify his relationship with geography and heritage in detail rather than arbitrarily pick and choose aspects and express them through ambiguous adjectives that may represent zero or more of ethnicity, citizenship, birthplace, &c. —Michael Z. 07:09, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

  This is more like recent approaches described in writing about decolonizing art, for example:

  Anne Pasternak, director of the Brooklyn Museum, said that since last summer, the European Art department has been revising the way it presents biographical information relating to nationality for objects in its collection, “precisely in response to the urgent and complex legacies of empire, colonization, and displacement that the war on Ukraine has thrown into relief.”

  The museum has been expanding its wall labels so that they describe an artist’s place of birth and death, noting any change in national borders. For instance, the artist Repin’s biographical line now reads: “Chuhuiv, Ukraine (former Russian Empire), 1844 — 1930, Repino, Saint Petersburg (former Kuokkala, Finland).”

  Though it may be a challenge to satisfy everybody, “we believe that this approach better highlights the histories of war, colonization, and independence,” Pasternak said, “that may be obscured when classifying by nationality.”

  • Robin Pogrebin, “Museums Rename Artworks and Artists as Ukrainian, Not Russian,” The New York Times, March 17, 2023.

   —Michael Z. 07:31, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

• Option 5. I like it not just summing up nationalities, it results in a better flow, and avoids the whole "this guy is [my arbitrarily preferred nationality here]" thing, which I despise, because it only ever leads to endless discussions on the talk page. I would prefer "moved to" over "worked in" but that's a nitpick with no real bearing on this RFC. --Licks-rocks (talk) 09:18, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
• Option 1, alternatively Option 2. The sources for these options are just higher quality.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:00, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

  I would agree with option 5 if it said "Kharkov, the Russian Empire, currently Kharkiv, Ukraine". Ymblanter (talk) 12:02, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

  How about “Kharkiv (also known as Kharkov), Ukraine, in the Russian Empire.” Kharkiv has never been renamed, sources merely started using a different spelling including in historical contexts. The current level of usage of the old spelling doesn’t pass the threshold of WP:MODERNPLACENAME so it needn’t be mentioned. The country of Ukraine existed continuously since before the Russian Empire, and there’s no need to use a wording that implies it did not (again, following sources, including those cited in previous discussion above).  —Michael Z. 16:52, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

  Thank you for your opinion, but I will stick to my suggestion. Ymblanter (talk) 16:59, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

• Option 1 for me, with Option 2 as an alternative. I would also agree with Option 5 if it were reworded according to Ymblanter's suggestion. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 16:52, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
• Option 5, but just calling it "Ukraine" doesn't seem accurate, and isn't what I see done on other similar articles. Either there should be clarification that it was part of the Russian Empire at the time, or it should just say "Kharkiv". I've seen the latter in several featured articles about historical persons. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 19:14, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

• Option 3 There is also a question of what degree of consideration should be given to Ukrainian scholars who refer to the composer as Ukrainian. If a Polish source is accepted by the editors to include in the lead, why not Ukrainian sources?--Tyulyasho (talk) 21:12, 22 November 2023 (UTC)Tylyasho

• Option 5, by a kilometer. (Summoned by bot) This option is by far the one which gives the reader the most context and clarity, by spelling out the nature of the subject's origins, rather than relying on labels which may be interpreted in a number of different ways. I really wish we didn't have to deal with an unending stream of POV battles over the ethnic identity of every cultural figure in the entire history of Russian-influenced European states, but whenever it does happen, the solution is clearly to delineate the exact hereditary and circumstantial relationships in language that is as straight forward and particularized as possible. Option 5 does that, where the other four do not (and are clearly more supportive to those who want to claim the subject for one ethnicity or another). Under those circumstances, this isn't even a particularly close call. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 03:33, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
• Option 4. There is no doubt Bortkiewicz was born in Ukraine, while option 1 is ignoring this important fact of his biography which leads to misunderstanding. Alternatevely option 3 is possible according to majority of modern sources. A1 (talk) 13:11, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

  Option 3, if not now then definitely in the next dispute. In the meantime option 4 or 5 as an alternative.If the descriptions were reversed and he was described as a Ukrainian composer, it would be hard to see how he could be changed back to Russian or Romantic. Also as he is a composer, most people would know him through his music, just giving a musician’s perspective here, the fact that he comes from Ukraine would make him a Ukrainian composer to most people. Just like all other composers that we call German, Italian, American etc. even if their countries at the time of their lives were part of different Empires, regions. Chasetry78 (talk) 14:11, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

• Option 5 Snow Rise summed this up well. This option is the most informative without being too cluttered. Nemov (talk) 18:55, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
• Option 5 this option is the most informative without being too cluttered. per Nemov and Snow Rise. Pincrete (talk) 07:32, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
• Russian and Austrian, AFAIK he only held those two nationalities, and the modern state of Ukraine wasn't an independent country during his lifetime. Also, he considered himself Russian, and he was deported because he was Russian, so it seems like an open and shut case. Birthplace and ethnicity shouldn't be mentioned in lede.--Ortizesp (talk) 13:54, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

  He said he was from “Little Russia” or “South Russia,” both of which meant Ukraine. That a country didn’t have a sovereign state while it was colonized by empires shouldn’t be used to erase its existence nor obscure its people’s origins. We don’t call Ferhat Abbas “French” or Mahatma Ghandi “British,” nor should we misidentify people from Ukraine.  —Michael Z. 18:05, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

  "Little Russia" or "South Russia" are names for Ukraine as part of Russia, and the usage of it says a lot about Bortkiewicz opinion about what Ukraine is or isn't. Unlike Abbas or Ghandi Bortkiewicz wasn't advocate of independent Ukraine, quite contrary he was openly against it. Better examples would be Cliff Richard, Peter Sarstedt or Engelbert Humperdinck, who despite being born in India, are universally regarded as British. Marcelus (talk) 18:22, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

  Bortkiewicz is not writing this article. Bortkiewicz is not a reliable secondary independent source on Bortkiewicz. Your own speculation about what Bortkiewicz’s opinion says about what Ukraine is or isn’t is irrelevant. Most especially, a colonial subject’s statements about colonial status including their own are not RS.

  We can write about what RS say he referred to himself as, if they present it as DUE, and we can also write about what it means according to RS.  —Michael Z. 19:28, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

  @Mzajac this discussion is going on for weeks, and you still keep ignoring RS that don't suits your views. None of what I said is based on primary sources, but on a secondary ones. Stop acting like you heard about it for the first time. Marcelus (talk) 19:39, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

  Perhaps the reason that the Jeremiah Johnson paper continues to cause disagreements is that its author simply lacks expertise when it comes to analyzing the complexity of the region. The value of the research lies in its music analysis and not history or psychology.

  It is understandable as Johnson is a musicologist not a historian. The paper doesn’t have a single book on history of Ukraine in its sources nor are any of the advisors on the paper professors of history, anthropology or psychology.  The paper has many inconsistencies as well as author’s speculations, some of which I have outlined in the discussion weeks ago. There are many more, which I could provide if we are indeed going to look in depth at every source. The bottom line is, Jeremiah Johnson doesn’t refer to Bortkiewicz as a Russian composer. Nothing was stopping the author to refer to him as such, yet he introduces Bortkiewicz to a reader as “the late Romantic composer, Sergei Bortkiewicz”- thus I think it is better suited as a source for the option 2.

  Using this source to make the composer Russian risks to misrepresent source per WP:SYNTH Tyulyasho (talk) 20:56, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

  I referred to an excellent RS in correcting the suppositions made with the vote above. You responded by speculating about the subject’s opinions and formulating a bad analogy, sans RS.  —Michael Z. 21:21, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

  No. First of all, you initially referred to Bortkiewicz's words, not me. Secondly, you didn't correct anything; you merely arbitrarily claimed, or rather insinuated, that when Bortkiewicz said he was from South Russia, he actually meant Ukraine. Additionally, you added a reference to a source that does not pertain to Bortkiewicz at all. Moreover, the source explicitly defines the terms 'Little Russia' and 'South Russia' as Russian imperial names, emphasizing the 'Russianness' of the Ukrainian lands. Therefore, the source actually confirms the opposite. Marcelus (talk) 21:55, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

  Cripes, that is just twisted.  —Michael Z. 22:17, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

  "Little Russia" or "South Russia" aren't Ukraine, they are Russian regions that came to become Ukraine in recent times. They were very much part of Russia back then. Your arguments seems revionist. And Gandhi and Abbas both have strong links to colonial England and France, and I have no issues mentioning them in the lede. But they are different from Bortkiewicz because they eventually adopted those new nationalities, which is absolutely not the case with Bortkiewicz. Ortizesp (talk) 21:27, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

  There are other scholars that refer to Bortkiewicz as a Ukrainian composer.

  Why should they be disregarded in favor of one paper whose claims have been argued about in great length during this discussion? Jeremiah Johnson's paper is already overly represented in the article itself, cited multiple times as well as having a whole paragraph devoted to it. Tyulyasho (talk) 22:24, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

  No, in fact the country was known as Ukraine by the fifteenth century, and the name is attested in English by the mid seventeenth, and it continued to be known by that name, even in the Russian empire, although it was officially discouraged. The Russian name malorossiia was only coined and applied to Russian-ruled parts of Ukraine later, after Muscovy and the Russian empire colonized much but not all of the country between the late seventeenth century and the late eighteenth. I cited a source that explains the name in detail. There are sources quoted above that say the subject was from Ukraine, not “from what would one day become Ukraine” or any such flam-flam.

  Denying Ukraine’s existence before its independence in 1991 is colonial language, and its use is offensive.  —Michael Z. 22:25, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

  I agree that colonial attitudes toward Ukraine are quite evident in this discussion. This is a lengthy and complex subject that perhaps needs its own dedicated dispute resolution and maybe new guidelines from Wiki.

  For the discussion at hand, we have sources that refer to the composer as Ukrainian composer, Ukrainian-born composer, and Romantic composer, with one source referring to him as Austrian and none referring to him as Russian. I don’t quite understand why there is a debate about Russian, as none of the sources state that. Tyulyasho (talk) 22:43, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

  none referring to him as Russian, that's completely untrue, it's impossible to talk with you guys, seriously, let's respect eachother. Marcelus (talk) 23:12, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

  I’m mainly just following your lead, as in the past, the sources that said 'Ukrainian born,' 'representative of Ukrainian culture,' or 'of Ukrainian origin' were deemed insufficient by you and other editors for the lead 'Ukrainian composer.' You can check your comment from October 24.

  Following your logic, 'of Russian origin' or 'considered himself Russian' is not sufficient for 'Russian composer.'

  I offered two sources that clearly say 'Ukrainian composer' for option 3,

  and for option 4, one source says 'Ukrainian born,' and another states Kharkiv, Ukraine as the place of origin. There are no sources that say Russian composer Tyulyasho (talk) 23:29, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

  The article itself mentions how he was deported because of his Russian citizenship to Russia because he was Russian, and again in 1933 after German Nazi occupation. He lived in the region of what is now Ukraine, but the country he lived in was unequivocally Russian and he considered himself Russian. It's not neo-colonialist to accept facts. Ortizesp (talk) 01:37, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

  No sources say he was deported “because he was Russian.” A Wikipedia article is not a reliable source.

  The country that he lived in was not unequivocally “Russian” because it was Ukraine. The empire it was subject to was Russian.

  The only source saying “he considered himself Russian” is by a musicologist who clearly misinterprets the meaning of “Little Russian,” says that “Russians considered him Polish,” but still ends up saying “regardless of whether the land near Kharkov is considered ‘Ukrainian’ today or ‘Russian’ back in the early 1900s—to Bortkiewicz’s it was his homeland. And Bortkiewicz’s misinterpreted supposed feelings is not a reliable source on historical national identity.

  What “facts”?  —Michael Z. 03:38, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

  @Ortizesp Yet, the “facts” you mentioned were not enough to deter scholars from describing Bortkiewicz as a Ukrainian composer. Tyulyasho (talk) 03:59, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

  He was Ukrainian only in the sense that the land he was born on became Ukraine after his death, he was Russian in every other sense. Ortizesp (talk) 05:52, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

  Not facts. No source says that. It’s some stuff you are making up. Why?

  See also Sloboda Ukraine. Kharkiv was always in Ukraine. Although it was colonized by the Russian and Soviet empires for a period, it was never Russian national territory.  —Michael Z. 06:19, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

• Option 5 Excluding the word Ukraine; no need to hold our readers' hands with that. Most balanced and explanatory of all versions. Curbon7 (talk) 07:51, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

  More tactful though, no need to whack us over the head with his early life in the first two sentences; can be spread out over the lede. Curbon7 (talk) 05:27, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

• Option 1 or Option 2. The nationality was not Ukrainian nor is the birthplace relevant to his notability. Option 5 is unnecessarily long regarding residency. So either the nationality should be included as is standard or omitted. Mellk (talk) 03:32, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

  Numerous sources quoted above define him as a Ukrainian and talk about the importance of Ukrainian influence on his work. Why do you always want to remove any mentions of Ukraine in contradiction to sources? Isn’t this like your only goal in every discussion?  —Michael Z. 04:55, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

  Is your only goal to piss people off? Mellk (talk) 05:03, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

  To be fair, numerous sources also define him as Russian. These sources include the composer's own memoirs. The only sources I've read where his national identity is discussed in depth is Johnson and Ishioka Chihiro [28]: both define him as Russian. Anyway, whatever the ultimate outcome of this survey, there is no need to attack other editors simply because they disagree with you. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 06:42, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

  Options 1 and 2 ignore scholars and musicians who do describe Bortkiewicz as a Ukrainian composer, which are far more numerous. Besides Western scholars presented above for the option 3 and 4 there are Ukrainian scholars who refer to the composer as Ukrainian, belonging to Ukrainian heritage as well as the fact that “Europeans largely did not yet distinguish Ukrainian musical culture separately.” Why should all of these evidence be ignored in favor of option 1, 2? Tyulyasho (talk) 13:12, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

  There are also high-quality sources that describe him as Russian/Austrian, since this was the nationality. If others think that it is best to omit this and then explain in more detail in the body, then I am not against that. I am not interested in the back and forth, though. Mellk (talk) 19:06, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

  We’re not talking about Bortkiewicz’s self-identification, because it is not established in sources. Bortkiewicz himself is not a reliable secondary source on this, and he is prejudiced: Johnson quotes him as saying Russian language is superior. Johnson is a terrible source on this question too: he seems to be unaware that “Little Russian” and “South Russian” mean Ukraine, he is apparently unable to read original sources in Russian or Ukrainian because he relied on an English translation of Bortkiewicz’s memoir, and his source on the history of Russia and Ukraine is a frickin Washington Post article by a journalist who lectures on digital affairs and the global age.  —Michael Z. 04:17, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

• @Robert McClenon: are additional options by editors who did not participate in the RfC discussion valid? —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 08:02, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

  Why wouldn’t they be acceptable? If there’s consensus for another option then it’s better, so why wouldn’t you want it here? If there’s not, then what’s the problem?  —Michael Z. 08:18, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

  The options are very limited. Why he can't be called "Russian, Austrian, and Ukrainian artist" or "Russian and Austrian, Ukraine-born artist" etc.? Marcelus (talk) 08:28, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

  User:CurryTime7-24 = My objective had always been to include as many options as were being proposed. Maybe your question needs rewording: are additional options by editors who did not participate in the RfC discussion valid? This is the RFC discussion. You probably meant to ask whether options by editors who did not take part in the DRN discussion could add options. I see no reason why they can't; so I think that they can. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:50, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

  Just wanted to make sure. Thank you! —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 16:33, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

  There are no current scholarly sources that refer to Bortkiewicz as a Russian composer. Some scholars address composer’s possible Russian sentiments and affiliations, yet all stop short of calling him a Russian composer. Option 1 doesn’t have any sources that support its wording of using Russian in the a lead. Tyulyasho (talk) 21:14, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

References