Talk:September Laws (Sudan)/GA1

GA Review

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Nominator: FuzzyMagma (talk · contribs) 12:22, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Reviewer: PCN02WPS (talk · contribs) 02:18, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Reviewing as part of GARC. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 02:18, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

@PCN02WPS, reminder ping. -- asilvering (talk) 00:01, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

@FuzzyMagma I am very, very sorry for letting this nom sit for so long without action. I genuinely forgot about it for a while as my free time decreased after school started back up, and now I have been without power for four days following Hurricane Helene. I will get to this as soon as I can, hopefully later today. Thank you for your patience. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 15:00, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

@PCN02WPS I hope you are not affected by Hurricane Milton and hope you will find time to continue the review FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:45, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Lead

• "Sudanese president...introduced Islamic sharia laws in Sudan" is a little repetitive; the two links right next to each other are also misleading so that needs to be fixed

fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:25, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

• Some issues with commas in the last sentence of para 1; can ditch the one after "unlike"

fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:25, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

• "policies contributed to Second Sudanese Civil War in southern Sudan" → "to the Second..."

fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:25, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Background

• "Sudanese president Gaafar Nimeiry" → "president" is lowercase in the lead and uppercase in this section

fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:25, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

• "While legislative attempts to Islamise..." → not a complete sentence

fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:25, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

• "the "Sudanese Islamic Movement."" → move full stop outside quotes per MOS:LQ

fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:25, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

• "During the period between 1977 and 1985" → "From 1977 to 1985" to simplify wording

fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:25, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

• First sentence is a run-on; the clause "which involved..." is set up like an appositive but is never closed, making the sentence ungrammatical. "especially" needs a comma before it.

fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:25, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

• Why is "Islamic approach" in quotes? What does that mean? Is it different than the "aligning with religious groups..."?

becuase the word "approach" or "path" was used as a term that Nimeiry used - at the time - to talk about this movement. FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:25, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

• Book titles should be italicized, not in quotes. (Also, the first book is missing a closing quote anyway)

fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:25, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

The law, etc

• Again, why is "Islamic path" in quotes? Is this a term that was widely used or one that you came up with?

changed to approach for consistency but is translated from Arabic FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:25, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

• The first sentence is very wordy, what you're saying is "The commencement of the legislation initiated in 1983"; that essentially means "The start of the law started in 1983", which is redundant

fixed and made shorter FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• The whole first paragraph is kind of meaningless; "The law started, which resulted in laws and directives being introduced to enforce the law and other doctrines" - some specifics would be helpful

see above this comment FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• "resulting in the introduction of several directives and laws to enforce sharia law" -- repetitive

see above this comment FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• "In September 1983, President Gaafar Nimeiry" → all you need is "Nimeiry" here; his title and first name were given in the previous section

fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• why is "September Laws" in italics?

fixed to quotation FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• "He was assisted in drafting the laws by a group of Islamists" → change to active voice

fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• "The laws led to disposing of alcohol" → who was doing the disposing/implementing?

changed to "The laws led to prohibition and implementing hudud punishments" FuzzyMagma (talk) 12:15, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• "According to Human Right Watch" → from what I can tell, it's "Human Rights Watch"

fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• try to implement the HRW quote into your prose by paraphrasing it or using a shorter selection. It's kind of awkward as is and disrupts the flow of the article to have a paragraph-long quote

merged with the text above. The aim was to explain what Hudud punishments meant but there is a wikilink FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• "Hassan al-Turabi backed this decision" → the decision to implement Sharia law, or backed certain punishments, or something else?

yes and fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• "The Islamic economy was introduced in early 1984" -- the meaning of this is not immediately obvious

fixed and moved up for better flow FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• "Nimeiry proclaimed himself the "Imam of the Sudanese Umma" in 1984" -- in the lead, "imam" is lowercase, italicized, and linked; not sure what is correct but this should be consistent. Also, what is "umma" and why is it in quotes?

Umma orUmmah is an Arabic term used to refer to the collective nation of Muslim people. Nimeiry wanted to be called that (leader or spiritual guide of the Sudanese Muslim community), this why I used the quotation and now linked Ummah FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• "banned "European dancing",[13] and " -- remove comma (WP:CINS)

fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• "They poured alcohol was worth" -- ungrammatical

fixed to "They poured alcohol worth around $11 million" FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• "Being lashed 40 times is the penalty for breaking the prohibition on alcohol" -- there is probably a better way to say this ("The punishment for breaking...is forty lashes" or something similar)

fixed and merged to the sentence before it FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• "which they used to empower itself " → plural (they) ... itself (singular)

fixed to "themselves" FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• "an "Islamic republic." " -- LQ

fixed, "." outside the quote FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• "However Historian Gabriel Warburg asserted" -- needs comma after "however" and lowercase for "historian". Might want to change to "the historian" to avoid a false title.

both fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• "nine billion dollars" -- specify currency

fixed to USD FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• Break up first sentence of "Amputation"

done FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• "that lead to a famine declared" -- "led"

fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• "implantation" -- implementation?

fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• why is September Laws in italics?

fixed, italic removed FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• "300 Sudanese individuals" -- don't start a sentence with a numeral (MOS:NUMNOTES)

fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• "than $40 USD" → might want to change to "US$40" using a template

done, including to other currency mention FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• "and often endured" suggest "were subject to wrongful arrests" so we avoid putting too much emotion in WP's voice

fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• "exacerbated their suffering" -- "their" is ambiguous here since the last people you mentioned are those performing the amputations

fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• "leading to significant social and familial consequences, including shame within their families and enduring public humiliation" -- repetitive

removed FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• "punishment including 8 who were hanged" -- needs a comma after "punishment" and "eight" instead of "8"

fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• "Muslims and Christians faced sharia punishment including 8 who were hanged" -- were they the only groups that faced punishment? why are we mentioning them specifically?

Muslims are the majority (98% in Sudan today) and Christians are a minority concentrated in the South (now South Sudan). Sharia laws typically govern Muslims but in Sep. Laws it was stretch to Christians. At the top I mentioned the reasons for the Second Sudanese Civil War, which further elaborated on in the Southern Sudan section. I assumed it will be understood in the context of the article, but let me know where I can make the article more accessible FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• "hudud punishment of amputation" -- wording of this sentence is a little off; also "hudud" is italicized previously in the article but not here

Hudud italised, rephraed to "Sudanese historian al-Mahbob Abdul Salam recounts that Hassan al-Turabi lost consciousness while witnessing an amputation, a hudud punishment, at Kober prison." FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• "al-Turabi quoted saying that" -- "al-Turabi said"

changed to "In 1985, Hassan al-Turabi stated, "Ultimately .."" FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• The image caption of Taha could provide some info about the image (when it was taken, for example), rather than just his name and a link

fixed but could not find the data but wrote about the execution FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• "It promoted peaceful relations" -- this sentence goes back and forth with what it promoted and opposed; recommend "it promoted...x, y, z,... and opposed..." so readers don't get confused going back and forth

fixed to "It advocated for peaceful relations with Israel, gender equality, and various freedoms. It also criticised Wahhabism, opposed the enforcement of Islamic penal codes, and supported a federal social democratic governance system." FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• "government, and faced a" → remove comma

fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• "On 5 June 1983, Nimeiry sought to counter" -- what happened on june 5? did he come up with the idea on that day or did he actually divide the southern region? if he actually divided it, get rid of "sought to..." etc.

fixed, sentenced restructured and divided to two FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• You can remove the SPLA acronym since it isn't used anywhere else in the article

done FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Aftermath

• "Nimeiry's removal in 1985" -- expand the link to cover this whole phrase to avoid any WP:EGG-y issues

fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 12:15, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• "authorised hudud punishments" -- this is already linked

fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 12:15, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• "was amputated" -- "were amputated" since there were multiple

fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• "Similar cross amputation" -- this sentence is worded poorly

changed to "A similar cross-amputation sentence was issued and enforced in 2021." FuzzyMagma (talk) 12:15, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• "Also, the government required, for example" -- remove "for example" if you have "also"

fixed and included when the law stopped FuzzyMagma (talk) 12:15, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

That's what I've got for prose. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 22:55, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi, amended as suggested. You can critique specific amendment directly by replying to my comment on that specific issue. Thanks for taking the time to review the article prose. FuzzyMagma (talk) 12:17, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Second round

Reading over the prose again now. Image checks and source spotchecks to follow shortly. Again, thanks very much for being so patient, it really is appreciated. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:02, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the detailed comments. It really helped improve the article, and please feel free to reply to any specific comment that you feel was not implemented as you think or where more discussion/clarification can be had/done. Thanks again for taking the time to do this, especially with the hurricanes, and I really hope the topic was interesting FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:55, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Overall

• I know this is relatively drastic, but have you given any thought to retitling the article? Since it doesn't seem the whole term "September 1983 Laws" was used to refer to the subject, rather simply "September Laws" as given and bolded in the lead. I feel September Laws (Sudan) might be a better title, though that's a discussion that can always take place after the GAN closes.

to be honest, make sense. I moved the page FuzzyMagma (talk) 20:24, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Lead

• Your explanation of "umma" above is appreciated - I'd recommend linking it in the lead

fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 20:24, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

• "unlike the leader of the opposition Sadiq al-Mahdi's dissenting view" -- I think you could nix the last two words; the fact that his view was dissenting is given when you introduce him using "unlike" right after you talk about al-Turabi supporting them.

fixed as suggested FuzzyMagma (talk) 23:03, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

• I would also recommend making your use of the terms "imam" and "umma" consistent; here "imam" is lowercase and italicized while "umma" is lowercase and spelled without an "h". At the end of the first paragraph of "The law and its implications", "imam" is uppercase and not italicized while "umma" is uppercase and spelled with an "h".

made "umma" consistent to fit with the Umma Party and all lowecased except when used in National Umma Party FuzzyMagma (talk) 23:03, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Background

• Is "al-Mirghani and al-Mahdi rivalry" notable enough for a redlink? If so, would that be the best title for that prospective article? The only thing I know about rivalry articles are from college football, where the two parties are separated by an endash

I got the title for the "al-Mirghani and al-Mahdi rivalry" article from a CIA document. The topic itself is really important in Sudanese politics. Its why Sudan has many military coups and bitter animosity between politicians, and I hope I will get the time to write the article. I think its really notable and the title is supported at least by the CIA document published at the height of the rivalry FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:26, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

• "His transition from nationalist leftist ideologies" -- might consider linking Left-wing politics here for the benefit of those unfamiliar with the left-right political spectrum

fixed and linked to Left-wing nationalism FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:26, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

The law and its implications

• "and laws to enforce sharia law and other fundamental" -- the term "sharia" is used both uppercase and lowercase throughout the article, I would recommend being consistent with this

fixed to small, as seen in the Sharia article FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:26, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

• "By September 1983, Nimeiry introduced sharia law in Sudan, known as the "September Laws"" -- were they called this at the time or after the fact? Who named them that?

very interesting question. I have no clue to be honest but it seems the laws was called after the fact, as in all 1985 and NYT 1986 article does not use the term "September Laws". But more recent sources does. I will change the sentence to "later known as " FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:26, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

• "judiciary, voiced concerns" -- remove comma

fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

• "leader of the Umma Party" -- if the "Umma Party" is a political party, it might deserve a redlink

it exits at National Umma Party. Linked it FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

• "They poured alcohol worth around US$11 million" -- this sentence still reads quite awkwardly to me; my recommendation would be something like In total, US$11 million worth of alcohol was dumped.

fixed as suggested FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

• "the market.[18]Since" -- missing space b/w reference and the start of the following sentence

fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

• "Sudan's 1973 Constitution to declare" -- I don't think "constitution" needs caps

fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

• "and an external debt of US$9 billion" -- is this $9B in 1980s money or 2024 money?

the article is from 1990, and I found another reference with the same figure and Sudan debt in June 1992 is US$15.3 billion, so it is shocker FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

• First sentence in "Amputation" section needs to be split. Recommend full stop after "availability in the region" and a new sentence when you start about the USAID declaring famine.

fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

• "exacerbated amputees suffering" -- "amputees" needs to be possessive: exacerbated amputees' suffering

fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

• "amputation, a hudud punishment" -- "hudud" is given in italics in other parts of the article

sorry for having to repeat that. I thought I made all of them italic, like the Hudud article itself but fixed them now FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

• "power, on June 5, 1983, Nimeiry" -- uses MDY format but DMY format seems to be more commonly used in the article. Should be consistent either way

fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Aftermath

• "and requested that the Sudanese government to amend the" -- ungrammatical, recommend removing "to"

fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Images

• File:Garang Deng Bol.jpg -- public domain
• File:Abdul Rahman Ali.jpg -- public domain
• File:Idris Al-Nur Koko.jpg -- public domain
• File:Al-Amin Kabashi.jpg -- public domain
• File:Nimieri and Turabi 1982.jpg -- public domain
• File:Adam Ismaeel 1986.jpg -- public domain
• File:Ibrahim Osman 1986.jpg -- public domain
• File:MahmoudMohammedTahaImage.jpg -- fair use rationale provided
• File:Omar al-Bashir 1990.jpg -- public domain
• File:HassanAlTurabi Feb2015 RomanDeckert.jpg -- CC 4.0

Images used look good to me - article is very well illustrated and the images do a very good job at emphasizing the subject matter. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:14, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

A concern about the provenance of the images: they are sourced from a FB post; what makes you think it accurately reports the site of the publication / date of publishing? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 03:31, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I did some kinda of triangulation, by checking what the Facebook post says about the picture, then found the photographer, Peter Anton von Arnim, who was in Sudan between 1980 and 1987 where he supported the "September Amputees Union" (see the article), which supported what was mentioned in the FB post, i.e., him being the photographer in 1985/1986 ([also see this for more confirmation). Once you established when and where the picture was taken, then its PD (i.e., at least 25 years have passed after the photograph was created, Sudanese Law).

I was not sure how I can include this in the image description, but with your comment it is now documented. FuzzyMagma (talk) 19:35, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Spotchecks

Sources selected at random from this version. I had to hand-pick some new sources to replace the non-English ones that were randomly picked.

• FN 3: redirects to this site rather than a specific source

  check the achieved version of the page FuzzyMagma (talk) 16:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• FN 6: neither Nimeiry nor the phrase "September Laws" are present from what I can tell

  it says "Sudan has been ruled by Islamic laws since September 1983." I moved ref 13 to 2nd half of the sentence and added another reference to "known as the September laws" part of the sentence FuzzyMagma (talk) 16:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• FN 10:  verified
• FN 12: (a)  verified; (b) does ...southerners' disappointment with the regime's failure to fulfill the Addis Ababa Accords... verify Nimeiry's Islamic phase marked the end of the Addis Ababa Agreement of 1972...? Not saying it doesn't, just genuinely asking a question. Also - I might be missing it but I don't see mention of the "Southern Regional Assembly" in the source. (c)  verified

  just for context, which I now added to the article. "Nimeiry's Islamic phase" did not start with the 1983 laws but from the 1973 Constitution of Sudan which declared the country as Muslim and Arabic country which went against anything agreed in the Addis Ababa Agreement of 1972 but the constitution was not enforced until after the 1977 National Reconciliation and from there Nimeiry wanted an "Islamic Republic". As for the Southern Regional Assembly it refers to the People's Regional Assembly of the Southern Sudan Autonomous Region (1972–1983) which was linked at the beginning of the section FuzzyMagma (talk) 16:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• FN 16: did not see any mention of dumping alcohol into the Nile

  true, it mentions prohibition, the source after it mentions the alcohol being dumped in the Nile, you can see this video also placed as an external link at the end of the page. I removed the reference as it is partially redundant and the information as a whole is in FN 17 FuzzyMagma (talk) 16:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• FN 17:  verified
• FN 19: Didn't check this one, but note that it is a duplicate of FN 16.

  removed the 1st mention FuzzyMagma (talk) 16:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• FN 28:  verified date of execution
• FN 31: can't find what this is meant to support

  quoting "he [Sudan’s Deputy Chief Justice] denied his [Omer al-Bashir] government had ever stopped the use of one of the most severe forms of “hudud” punishments," and the opinion piece provide examples also FuzzyMagma (talk) 16:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• FN 34:  verified
• FN 38:  verified
• FN 41: sentence portion ...under article 173 of the 1991 Sudanese Criminal Code... is not present in the source (though it is given in FN 42)

  if you do not mind I will leave it as it is. As the first article capture the "mood" during the sentencing (for stealing cooking oil) and the 2nd one is for when the sentence was changed FuzzyMagma (talk) 16:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• FN 42: set |url-status=dead so the archived link is the primary link since the original link redirects to a 404. Content  verified.
• FN 45: source says Muthna was convicted of armed robbery (Haraba) under article 167 of the 1991 Sudanese Penal Code... while article says ...in article 168 of the 1991...

  article 167 is the definition of "Haraba", article 168 is the punishment article since why I included it, see the original law FuzzyMagma (talk) 16:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• FN 46: (a)  verified (b) Might have a slight close paraphrasing issue, since Requests the Government of Sudan to: (a) immediately amend the Criminal Law of 1991, in conformity with its obligations under the African Charter and other relevant international human rights instruments; (b) Abolish the penalty of lashes; and c) Take appropriate measures to ensure compensation of the victims is quite close to requested that the Sudanese government amend the 1991 Criminal Code, abolish punishment by lashing, and compensate the survivors.

  rephrased to "The Government of Sudan was urged to revise its 1991 Criminal Law to meet international human rights standards, abolish flogging as a punishment, and ensure victims receive compensation.". since the demands are simple statements of fact, I appeal WP:LIMITED FuzzyMagma (talk) 16:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

No rush, just ping me when you get through these and I'll have another look. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 20:06, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

@PCN02WPS whenever you have time FuzzyMagma (talk) 16:39, 13 November 2024 (UTC)