Talk:Seneca Turnpike

Seneca Turnpike: expansion / re-merger of good material needed

Hey editors, it came to my attention that current coverage of "Seneca Turnpike" in Wikipedia is in this Seneca Road Company article started by MB on September 1, 2015, which seemed too recent to me. Seneca Turnpike is in fact a redirect to this, and had a previous life starting in 2007.

There is good stuff in this article but it is incomplete, arguably even a bit misleadingin asserting that "The roadway is still in existence as part of New York State Route 5 and is still called the Seneca Turnpike or Old Seneca Turnpike in some places." The Seneca Turnpike and Old Seneca Turnpike that I happen to know is quite different from Route 5.

I gather that Route 5 and the Seneca Turnpike are pretty much the same from Albany west to some point a little east of Syracuse. I happen to be familiar with both routes on the west side of Syracuse, where they are completely different, very far away from each other. A huge qualitative difference, not fully enough covered in any version of Wikipedia's coverage, is that the Seneca Turnpike's route coming across central NY is quite up-and-down, though perhaps relatively straight, reflecting the fact that it followed Indian pathways. For example it comes down into the valley south of Syracuse then up a very steep climb to Onondaga Hill, several miles south of Route 5 through Syracuse. If you're walking then shortest route with some up and down is better; if you are travelling by wagons, say, you want a flatter route. A later northern divergence of Seneca Turnpike was built which was flatter. That and/or current Route 5 became E. Genesee St. coming into what is now Syracuse and W. Genesee St. going further west and on and on. (And further, the later Erie Canal (completely flat) followed course of what is now Erie Boulevard East diverging to the north of E. Genesee St. on the east side of Syracuse, meeting up in downtown Syracuse and running to the south of W. Genessee St. until criss-crossing back to the north of W. Genesee St. in Geddes on the west side of Syracuse, and maybe not ever crossing or congruent anywhere further to the west.)

The previous Seneca Turnpike article was started in 2007 by User:Phmalo and brought up to this versionby Phmalo, later expanded a bit by these edits by User:Rsholmes. Smaller edits by several editors brought it up up to this version of October 2010 before it was redirected by User:TwinsMetsFan on December 11, 2010 to New York State Route 5#Early roads.

Frankly, that redirect was not fully proper IMHO, because it should have been understood (and I think was well-established enough in wikipedia already) that the Seneca Turnpike route diverged from Route 5. So the two articles should have linked to each other, but they are simply different things. Anyhow TwinsMetsFan did good stuff, too, and contributed to the Route 5 article before and after the redirect. TwinsMetsFan added (and/or merged/copied over some material?) to the "Early roads" section in this diff on December 11, 2010, with edit summary "some fixes and slight expansion re history"

Then subsequently this diff of all further changes to NYS Rt 5 article, which did not greatly change the 'Early roads" section but probably made some improvements.

Note there are different assertions of Seneca Road Company starting in 1794 or in 1800.

Going forward now:

• Material and sources from these several versions should be verified and merged.
• Find sourcing and/or expand about up-and-down Indian pathway vs. modern needs
• Develop about architecture of lodging/hotels built along the route, including stepped gables being used, including Gen. Orrin Hutchinson House on Seneca Turnpike on Onondaga Hill (far from Route 5), and another historic stepped gables house in valley south of Syracuse, and others east and west
• Should the routes of the Seneca Turnpike (new and Old) be covered in the old "Seneca Turnpike" article location, or in the "Seneca Road Company" article?
• Coverage and links between Route 5 article vs. Seneca Turnpike vs. Seneca Road Company need to be fixed up.

Anyhow, thank you to several editors for your contributions. And who can help now? Comments? --Doncram (talk) 10:52, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Doncram, interesting comments. I agree this article could use expansion. I have it on my list to go through all my early articles that were not of good quality, as I just did with Jedediah Sanger (where there is a section on the turnpike), one of the major investors in the Seneca Turnpike. I also now think the article should be at Seneca Turnpike as the company chartered to construct it is less notable that the road itself. I'm not sure I would say that statement on RT5 is misleading - the road is still in use as part of NYS5 in some places. But of course this could be made clearer with elaboration.

By the way, the road east of Utica was under a different charter/company - it was, if I recall correctly, the "Mohawk Turnpike". I am quite sure the Seneca Road Company started in 1800. 1794 was when the legislature called for construction of the predecessor Genesee Road. I also found a claim the Seneca Turnpike was built in 1812 by Comfort Tyler but removed that from that article because it wasn't in the given source and I know that to be false from the sources I used in the Jedediah Sanger and Seneca Road Company. MB 14:33, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi, i would be very glad if you would proceed along these lines, and be happy that i was able to point to some materials/versions of stuff, to someone who could make good use of it. Great that you're willing to revisit early contributions; i certainly have learned a lot since i started, too. Indeed maybe my using term "arguably misleading" was overstated, it is a matter of speculation what readers might think, and yes definitely your point about "some places" and more. About early houses/inns having stepped gables, add William H. Sabine House just a bit off the turnpike, in valley south of Syracuse, and add John Gridley House directly on the turnpike, in what apparently was known as "Onondaga Hollow", right where turnpike came from east steeply down into valley. I guess that might be called Onondaga valley maybe(?) as Onondaga Creek runs north through Syracuse to Onondaga Lake. U know more than me about east of Syracuse, that sounds right about there being a Mohawk Turnpike coming up Mohawk River from Albany. There is a water basin divide between that vs. Syracuse area, which drains north to Lake Ontario and Saint Lawrence R. instead (Siege of Fort Stanwix was about Revolutionary war battle, related to bigger battle of Saratoga, at fort in general area of important portage between the basins). I agree that the "Seneca Turnpike" should probably be the main article, with section on the company; the turnpike is bigger topic with longer existence into current times, and is not naturally a subsection of the company.

Good map is really needed, showing various routes splitting off. Hey, it would be really nice to get a horizontal elevation profile (redlink, an article needed IMHO) chart along route of the turnpike, like was discussed for Carretera Central (Puerto Rico) (at Talk:Carretera Central (Puerto Rico)#map and elevation profile and quick versions of which can be created easily in Google and/or by use of bicycle route software. Including to illustrate point about up-and-downness. --Doncram (talk) 15:07, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Include a section on "historic sites along", too, there are many probably besides the stepped gables ones.