Talk:Scottish Romani and Traveller groups

Article needs some cleaning up

It's a bit messy, I'd like to see some more references to Scottish travellers in Scottish culture.

I propose a history and a "in modern society" or something section.

More than one mixed group

Actually this article gives the impression there are only one ethnic group of travellers in Scotland there are Romanichal, as well as Irish Pavee and now Easten European Roma. I think the article should be split into its constute ethnic groups rather than just the Highland Traveller represented. Sunset through the clouds (talk) 14:40, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Appendix 12 Children Missing from Education (Scotland)

This source "Appendix 12 Children Missing from Education (Scotland) - Keeping in Touch - Gypsy and Traveller Children" might prove useful, for a section on education. --PBS (talk) 12:22, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Intended article move

I propose moving this article to 'Scottish Travellers' (capitalised Travellers) as this is the most common appellation for these groups, and to distinguish from others considered 'travellers' in common parlance, such as tourists etc. Comments welcome. RashersTierney (talk) 14:53, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Fine by me, makes sense but you better follow procedure and stick the page move tag on. Akerbeltz (talk) 15:59, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for reply. I've posted a request at Wikipedia:Requested moves since the requested term is already a redirect. Think that covers procedure. Am I mistaken? RashersTierney (talk) 16:31, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

Scottish travellers → Scottish Travellers — I propose moving this article to 'Scottish Travellers' (capitalised Travellers) as this is the most common appellation for these groups, and to distinguish from others considered 'travellers' in common parlance, such as tourists etc. Initial redirect needs to be overridden. RashersTierney (talk) 18:30, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Article now moved. Please fix any links to the original name and remove the "Movereq" tag if needed. Ben MacDui 09:00, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! Will do. Akerbeltz (talk) 10:48, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Move Scottish Travellers

With similar regards to the above post today I moved the name from Scottish Travellers to Scottish Gypsy/Travellers. In line with the Scottish Governments title of calling the groups as Gypsies/Travellers [[1]]. Calling all Scottish Gypsies Travellers would be inaccurate as some groups accept this title while others have a Gypsy heritage or identity. Kind RegardsUthican (talk) 05:45, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

I've reverted your move (for now) - this was totally out of the blue and I'm really not sure the wording you chose was any better than the one we had before. Can we please talk about this? Akerbeltz (talk) 11:08, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay I was away from wikipedia for a while, sure we can discuss this. The term Traveller is too broad a label for people for the various ethnic groups. The Scottish government recognizes that not all Travellers call themselves Gypsies and not all Gypsies call themselves Travellers. To call everyone a Scottish Traveller further adds to confusion as people will assume all groups are Highland Travellers who were historically called "Tinkers" and are indigenous to Scotland. The government states the term Gypsy/Traveller refers to distinct groups - such as Romany Gypsies, Scottish and Irish Travellers - who regard the travelling lifestyle as being part of their ethnic identity. [[2]]Uthican (talk) 05:21, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Ah now I see where you're coming from. Ok, I'll tentatively sign up to that but that slash looks really ugly. Are there rules against using the word "and" i.e. Scottish Gypsies and Travellers? We'll need redirects from both Sc G and Sc T too. Akerbeltz (talk) 11:58, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

I could go with a rename along such descriptive lines, but definitely not with slashes, dashes or similar. Can we have a specific proposal? (Here is a link to the relevant MOS, for convenience.) RashersTierney (talk) 12:25, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

I have mulled over the various names along descriptive lines and thought about Scottish Gypsy/Traveller (as with the Scottish Governments usage), Scottish Gypsy/Traveller Groups, Scottish Gypsies and Traveller Groups, Scottish Romani and Traveller groups, Gypsy and Traveller Groups in Scotland. We also have pages like Anglo-Irish so the dash is used in other pages what do you think?Uthican (talk) 06:57, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Or 'Scottish Gypsy and Traveller groups'? RashersTierney (talk) 10:46, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

That sounds better, any objections to the change?Uthican (talk) 03:42, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

No, I'd be ok with Scottish Gypsy and Traveller groups Akerbeltz (talk) 10:59, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Irish Travellers

Some Irish Travellers have settled in Scotland and this is not reflected in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.113.183.242 (talk) 14:06, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

It shouldn't be as this article is about Scottish Gypsy/Traveller groups. Irish Pavee are not included in these Scottish groups to include them will just confuse the matter.Uthican (talk) 08:45, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Population

Does the  20,000 figure actually just refer to Romani in Scotland. It seems to be for "Gypsy/Travellers", which is a vague and ill-defined term, but usually seems to include non-Romani groups. Unfortunately very little literature actually distinguishes between the various groups that make up the "Gypsy/Traveller" group. --Eldomtom2 (talk) 16:57, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

The list of books

A long list of books and films is not common practice for any article on ethnic groups. Furthermore it includes works by Robert Dawson and Jess Smith, who, to put it as mildly as possible, are liars given unfortunate amounts of attention of the media and to a much lesser extent academia. It should be cut entirely. --Eldomtom2 (talk) 13:41, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

I agree that an unsourced list of fairly random works is not appropriate. // Hippo43 (talk) 07:43, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

Highland Travellers as a distinct group

Treating "Highland" Travellers as a neatly distinct group seems dubious to me. Most sources seem to claim that while there likely was an indigenous travelling population, it has now so intermixed with the Romani population that the two are now indistinguishable (for an example, see Invisible lives, a 2001 PhD thesis by Colin Clark). --Eldomtom2 (talk) 22:24, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Wondering if it's worth reopening this discussion - I'd argue the other way, that Scottish Gypsy/Travellers (referred to as Highland Travellers in this article) should be treated even more distinctly. I say this because Scottish Gypsy/Travellers have been officially recognised as a distinct ethnic group in a 2008 court ruling, and as such are represented/protected under race relations and equalities legislation in Scotland. Definitely a lot of room to expand this section in light of this, or even give Scottish Gypsy/Travellers their own article (in the same way Irish Travellers have their own page. Any thoughts? - OliverEastwood talk 14:01, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

"Scottish Gypsy/Travellers have been officially recognised as a distinct ethnic group in a 2008 court ruling" - would need a source on that, as well as the precise text of the ruling; it may not have had anything to do with considering them separate from other itinerant groups.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 07:43, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Can't find the text itself as most UK court decisions aren't published online, but it's "Mr K Maclennan v Gypsy Traveller Education and Information Project, S/132721/2007" - this was an Aberdeen Employment Tribunal decision recognising the ethnic status of Scottish Gypsy/Travellers. Additionally, the two most recent censuses (2011 and 2022) had "Gypsy or Traveller" listed separately to "Roma" or "Showman or Showwoman", indicating that they are recongised by the government as ethnically distinct from other nomadic groups in the UK.

Additionally, Scottish Gypsy/Travellers have a unique history of persecution within Scotland in terms of being forced into sedentary accommodation, segregation, and child removal, to name a few things, all of which have caused long-term impacts on health, education and employment. The Colin Clark thesis you mentioned entirely ignores this crucial aspect of SG/T history which is quite concerning. Government publications and policies dating back to the 1800s not only discuss SG/Ts as a distinct ethnic group, but also call for their persecution and systematic eradication. Would happily point you towards some resources to give you a better understanding of the history of this community.

My bottom line with all of this is that SG/Ts are not only an ethnically distinct group, but have an incredibly unique history - this article needs to go further to reflect that. OliverEastwood talk 09:00, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

"Mr K Maclennan v Gypsy Traveller Education and Information Project, S/132721/2007" - again, I'm dubious about citing this without knowing what it said. An ethnic group distinct from what?

"Additionally, the two most recent censuses (2011 and 2022) had "Gypsy or Traveller" listed separately to "Roma" or "Showman or Showwoman", indicating that they are recongised by the government as ethnically distinct from other nomadic groups in the UK." - Gypsy/Traveller is a generic term that does not solely apply to Scottish Travellers.

"Additionally, Scottish Gypsy/Travellers have a unique history of persecution within Scotland in terms of being forced into sedentary accommodation, segregation, and child removal, to name a few things, all of which have caused long-term impacts on health, education and employment. The Colin Clark thesis you mentioned entirely ignores this crucial aspect of SG/T history which is quite concerning. Government publications and policies dating back to the 1800s not only discuss SG/Ts as a distinct ethnic group, but also call for their persecution and systematic eradication." - Most of this is unfortunately bullshit spread by a few amateur historians who lie and misrepresent historical sources (on a wide range of topics, from what government reports in the 19th century said to the demographics of children sent to the colonies to the etymology of rock music to the patently absurd like claiming there were murders of Scottish Travellers by people intending to sell their bodies for medical dissection well into the 20th century!). The long and short of it is that there is no history of discrimination aimed at Scottish Travellers not also aimed at other travelling groups.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 20:03, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Further digging has shown that the Maclennan case did seem to involve "Scottish Gypsy/Travellers", but in general the term "Gypsy/Traveller" is inconsistently used in Scotland, both before and after the case - sometimes it specifically means the group known as "Highland Travellers" etc, sometimes it refers to travelling ethnic groups generally. The most recent info I can find is a Scottish government proposal and later consultation about creating a definition of "Gypsies and Travellers" for planning purposes. This definition did not recognise distinctions between travelling ethnic groups (Romani, Scottish Travellers, Irish Travellers, etc.), and the consultation does not seem to have brought this up, seemingly only focusing on making sure showmen were separated out.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 20:35, 29 July 2023 (UTC)