Talk:Salomon Morel

Germans or Silesian's

People that lived in Upper Silesia to survive occupation had to signature that they are Germans (people who didn't do that were sent to Auschwitz), after war people of Upper Silesia were oppressed on the other hand by the polish communist. SO LEARN MORE ABOUT HISTORY OF UPPER SILESIA AND DON'T WRITE LIES THAT ONLY GERMANS WERE IN THAT CAMP, most of German's escaped to Germany during or soon after war.

"had to signature" - No, the (East-)Upper Silesians had NOT to SIGNATURE (as in the occupied "origianal/historical" Poland). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:16B8:2A02:F00:74C5:DA0B:8A84:9264 (talk) 18:30, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Sorry written in polish: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Elfryda_Donga.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by Outthereforme (talk • contribs) 16:16, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Anti-german

What does this person have to do with the current anti-fascist ideology of anti-Germans that is not to be confused with anti-German sentiment? Andries 20:37, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Nothing. But he would probably qualify for one of their idols. --87.160.254.8 22:39, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Family?

I believe that the article should be edited, because several informations are repeated. What happened to Morel's family during the war? Xx236 15:11, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Shot dead in the "NS time" (German occupation of PL) by a >Polish(!)< police officer.

Their bodies (remains) ware found during construction works in the 1970ies,

in a grave/hole near the local police office in his village (not in Silesia).

Category

Should he be in the Category:War criminals or not? He is accused of being a war criminal by Poland; Isreal apparently doesn't agree, and he himself obviously doesn't want to face trial (and probably never will).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 17:58, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I'd say if he's never been convicted, he doesn't belong. Even Adolf Hitler doesn't make the list. Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 18:04, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

What if someone is convicted in absentia? Perhaps we should have a separate category for such individuals.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 18:21, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Well if they were convicted in absentia, I'd probably still be inclined to count that as a conviction. But again, that's just my opinion Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 18:23, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

War criminal after the war? Strange. Xx236 15:54, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Febr.-Nov. 1945 ! --172.177.188.17 23:13, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

The war ended in 1992. He is accused of crimes against Germans. Any crimes until 1992 would be war crimes. Actorgeorge99 (talk) 15:48, 26 February 2009 (UTC) 

Auschwitz?

Some sources like this mention he was imprisoned in Auschwitz. Others deny this or don't mention this at all. How should we address it? From the available sources I think the most 'serious' is the IPN bio, and it doesn't say a word about Auschwitz.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 23:59, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

It seems clear that he wasn't in Auschwitz. If he were he wouldn't be able to join partisans and go to USSR. I mean how likely it is that he would be able to leave Auschwitz if he were imprisoned there?--SylwiaS | talk 09:11, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes. There is also the version that 'his family was in Auschwitz'.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 16:20, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't think a newspaper is a serious source in relation to this man. Especially one in Montreal, Canada. The article doesn't even say he was even ever in Canada. The article flatly states that he committed war crimes in the camp. It also discusses how members of his family may have suffered during the war. The article is editorializing. Is that a defense that other war criminals can use too - how family members suffered at hands of the enemy, or is that defense reserved for certain people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pgg804 (talk • contribs) 02:27, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

John Sack, An Eye for an Eye: The Story of Jews Who Sought Revenge for the Holocaust,

This book is POV, this shouldn't be in a reference.

Please cite your sources for such accusation. Nothing in John Sack article indicates he has been discredited, and being controversial is not a valid objection.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 22:52, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

According to a number of sources, including the Montreal Gazette and the British Telegraph, Morel himself was at one point an inmate in Auschwitz, and over 30 of his relatives were killed in the Holocaust, though this is not listed in the IPN report. (Montreal Gazette, January 2, 2005, p A8)

Can 'Montreal Gazette' be a source of information, shouldn't be given their sources? What are the mysterious 'number of sources'?

--Nowis 05:51, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

This was discussed above. An academic institution like IPN is much more trustworthy then a newspaper.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 06:47, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I know from a lot of former german Soldiers and German Civilians that generally Camps with German Soldier and Civilian Inmates where often given in Command to jews by the Udssr autorities so that the reason for the horrible conditions in this camps are mainly and outcome of a cynical communist politic twords the Germans.( Eyvitnes of a camp close to Königsberg - Kaliningrad) But in the US and English army too there was but a blinde eye on such atrothities when jewish people where involved. I know a case because my father was the victim luckaly he survived. That was in 1945 around the Rhine bordering the netherlands ( Goch) where an austrian jewish US-Soldier killed serv eral soldiers during investigations. I dond think that this stories will ever come to the public opinion. In my view the crime was done by thos officers witch but this man in the power to do such things. Johann

Problems with neutral point of view

Ok, I see again that again were deleted facts about people who were in Zgoda Camp. Most of prisoners were not Nazi collaborators, in the fact nobody then was really interested in truth. In Silesia (whole region) everyone had to signed Volkslista, or go to Auschwitz. Even Polish government-in-exile ordered to signed Volkslista to prevent of killing people. After war Germans who were war criminals escaped abroad. Prisoners in Zgoda Camp came from raids on local population. I have written it once with sources a long time ago (my english was better also), and it was deleted. Why? Why

"had to sign" - No, had to accept.

deleted facts by 99.49.82.242

http://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Salomon_Morel&diff=prev&oldid=274019850

http://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Salomon_Morel&diff=prev&oldid=273943554

____________ Most lies in this link:

http://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Salomon_Morel&diff=prev&oldid=273813949

6000 of political prisoners? In whole Poland there wasn't soo much politicans. Once again most prisoners were local population oF Silesia, there were no trials. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.239.192.193 (talk) 22:10, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

"Communist Security"

This is clearly POV, and is not the correct translation of the Urząd Bezpieczeństwa, which is actually the "Ministry of Public Security of Poland. I'm deleting the reference to "Communist Security" because no such thing exists, and it meant to be a simple political buzzword. P1nkfl0yd (talk) 11:28, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

neutrality concerns

from the opening sentence describing Morel as a "fugitive Jew", the article goes on to create a biased article, in effect giving far greater weight to the Polish government version then the Israeli government version. consistently, the article ends off with a link to David Irving's website. (version i am referring to: [1]) I plan on revamping the article and welcome all colloberation. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 14:31, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Why would you give any weight to Israeli govt point of view whatsoever? He was born, lived and perpetrated his crimes in PRL (post war commie-controlled Poland), so they know better what he did and didnt do. Pure logic. USraeli govt doesnt count in here by any mean.

Low importance category article WTH ??

Why those weird suspicious labels? How could it be, that a fanatical jewish mass murderer article is of low importance? It is of the highest possible importance, for goodness sakes. Putting this art in such categories if a pure, but filthy moral and ethical crime against the families of, and the victims themselves. Who on earth would label this with such cat's? Im deeply shocked. A SCANDAL is a definitely too lightweight word to describe such behaviour.

Polish?

Why is he called "Polish communist official", while his ethnicity was first and foremost Jewish - just one of many unassimilated Jews who happened to rise to power during stalinism in Poland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.7.89.224 (talk) 22:35, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

He was a Polish national, working for the Polish government. And it appears he was quite assimilated. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:54, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

No, he was not a "Polish national". He was a Jewish national and wasn't raised with the same values as ethnic Poles. The people who were in charge of Poland at that time couldn't honestly be called a "Polish government" either. They couldn't held to power without Soviet military support and a large part of them weren't even Polish (just like Morel). What happened to Wikipedia? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.7.15.86 (talk) 23:39, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

You're wasting your breath. He committed vicious crimes then fled to Israel to escape punishment, but some things simply cannot be mentioned in Wikipedia -- the Keepers see to it. 38.115.185.4 (talk) 15:39, 24 August 2013 (UTC)Cynic

"Citizenship: Polish, later Israeli" speaks for itself. A Polish Jew would get an Israeli citizenship, a Polish non-Jew would not. As simple as that. If you asked Israeli authorities who refused to extradite Mr. Morel, about his nationality, I guess they would agree, too - he was clearly Jewish. Vēršana (talk) 12:06, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Being jewish means You believe in judaism. Its not an ethnicity and jews arent a people. Its a religion. You can be any ethnicity and be jewish.. Although black jews are often disciminated in israel and in many cases the right of return does not apply to them, simply because theyre black.

"Its not an ethnicity and jews arent a people." = non-sens !

You don't have to believe in judaism to be Jewish: quite a large percentage of Jews are atheists! Tsf (talk) 12:42, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Judaism is of course an ethnicity, actually one of the most ancient ones, about 3,500 years. Black (Ethiopian) Jews are getting Israeli citizenship by the Law of Return, and are not discriminated by law in Israel. As many other statements in this article discussion, those statements show nothing more than anti-Semitic views. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.125.27.53 (talk) 00:43, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

They can change his nationality, they can remove his picture so people don't see his thug face but thankfully they can't change his name so hopefully people will understand even if others try to hide it.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.69.234.65 (talk)

Zgoda labour camp and children

I noticed than in article Zgoda labour camp there is a section regarding this issue:

"Some families took children with them to the camp, but such cases were marginal, and concerned a few mothers who did not want to leave their children alone. Statistics and witness statements speak of about 2 mothers with children below 1,5 years of age and perhaps 2 or 3 children 6 or 7 years old. This was a violation of a directive by Security Department that forbade admitting prisoners along with children below 13 years old, who were ordered to be handed over to state care instead."

So note the difference between "Sometimes children were sent to the camp along with parents" and "Some families took children with them to the camp," so this claims contraindicate each other.Based on my limited knowledge of Polish,(I have Slavic and Hungarian ancestry) I guess that children were not sent to the camp but (children were usually taken from parents by Communist police) and exceptionally allowed into the camp with their parents. If this is not the case the Zgoda labour camp article has to be adjusted accordingly.--Tritomex (talk) 19:25, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

References

partisan (?)

"was in the forests" - Yes, in the forests, as BANDIT attacking the local civil population.

References

IPN Invastigation 1994

It is said: In 1994, soon after the dissolution of the Soviet Union, Morel was investigated by Poland's Institute of National Remembrance for war crimes

Problem is, the Institute of National Remembrance only started working in 2000. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.125.27.53 (talk) 00:35, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

It was pre-IPN, Komisja Badania... (many names).Xx236 (talk) 13:23, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Creative biography

Morel was the commander of the Jaworzno camp, see Jaworzno concentration camp. Not mentioned here.Xx236 (talk) 13:22, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

An Eye for an Eye: The Untold Story of Jewish Revenge Against Germans in 1945

Morel was mentioned in the book.Xx236 (talk) 13:27, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

The IPN text

The text has been removed from IPN pages. Unknown author. Published in 2002.

Morel was a warden in Lublin, not any chief. http://polska1918-89.pl/pdf/23-lata,-6-miesiecy-i-22-dni-salomona-morela,5751.pdf

Xx236 (talk) 09:39, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

per MOS:ETHNICITY:“Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability."

Per MOS:ETHNICITY:“Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability." As Morel defended himself based on his Jewish background, and reliable sources such as Anne Applebaum, New York Times name him as Polish-Jewish, and Israel also defended him on the basis of his ethnicity, than I believe this is relevant and notable enough that his ethnicity be included in the lead. Certainly naming him as solely Polish is not correct and might confuse as to both to citizenship and ethnicity, making people think he was solely Polish.For just comparision of manual of style(not character of course) see Anna Frank or Janusz Korczak were both citizenship and ethnicity are mnetioned. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 15:46, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

His ethnicity is relevant to his subsequent immigration to Israel - and should be mentioned in the lede as is already done in this version. Defining, however, this individual as a "Polish-Jewish NKVD and MBP officer in the Polish People's Republic" is highly inappropriate. Having Jewish ancestors does not define one's service in the NKVD and MBP. Icewhiz (talk) 15:52, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

"Having Jewish ancestors does not define one's service in the NKVD and MBP" and nobody is claiming that.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 18:34, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Fine. So lets stick to describing him as a Polish national in the service of the Polish government.Icewhiz (talk) 18:59, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

That's not how reliable sources describe him Icewhiz.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 19:30, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Per Anne Applebaum "Iron Curtain: The Crushing of Eastern Europe 1944-56 "the unusual case of Salomon Morel, who – all agree – was a Polish Jew and a communist partisan" New York Magazine - 9 Mau 1994 "on Solomon Morel, a Jewish camp commandant at Schwientochlowitz in Poland" --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 19:36, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

We have MOS:ETHNICITY - "The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases this will be the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if the person is notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable. - which quite clearly has us placing nationality in the opening paragraph. As his Jewish background is relevant as well, we can place that in the lede as well (e.g. next to immigrating to Israel), however we should following the MOS guideline.Icewhiz (talk) 15:28, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

@Volunteer Marek: - please clarify why you are removing Morel's Polish nationality from the lede - in contravention of MOS:ETHNICITY. Are you suggesting Morel wasn't a Polish national? Icewhiz (talk) 15:30, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

My edit summary was pretty clear. Which part are you not understanding? Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:32, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

And per the quote from MOS:ETHNICITY it's pretty straight forward that YOU are the one violating it. Why are you trying to accuse others of what you're doing yourself? Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:34, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

How am I violating it? MOS:ETHNICITY states religion/ethnicity may be in the lead if relevant (and it is there). I also states that "the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident" should be there in in most modern-day cases. Morel was clearly a Polish national, serving the Polish government - why the objection to stating he was Polish in the first paragraph?Icewhiz (talk) 15:48, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

"“Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability". Your WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT is showing.Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:24, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Polish is, as American, a nationality - an indication of citizenship.Icewhiz (talk) 18:48, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Are you seriously trying to pretend that "Polish" is not an ethnicity? Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:17, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

You could say the same of English, Italian, French, or any number of other national qualifiers. Our MOS guideline is quite clear in that we state nationality - and only after that, and only if particularly relevant, ethnicity or religion. Morel was a Polish citizen, lived most of his life in Poland, and was in the service of the Polish state.Icewhiz (talk) 06:55, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Morel was clearly a Polish national, serving the Polish government, torturing and killing Polish and German people.

Morel was Jewish, survived the Holocaust which probably influenced him. Many victims of crimes become cruel. The book by Sacks exaggerates, but the problem is real. Many ethnic Poles had psychical problems, especially KZ inmates.Xx236 (talk) 08:36, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

It is amusing to see how on some articles people fight to include their nationality in the lede ('this great person was also a part of our nation', see Georges Charpak for example...) and on others, they try to push someone into the hands of others ('no, thanks, you can have him'). I don't have a problem with him being described as Polish, through I find Polish-Jewish in general a good descriptor. But, I wonder, if we remove -Jewish here, should we also remove it from let's say L. L. Zamenhof? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:24, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

• I removed double "Polish". However, it is definitely important that he was Jewish because that is what he is famous for, a "Jewish man who took his own cold-blooded revenge against Germans for the Holocaust" [2]. So yes, that should be included to the lead per MOS:ethnicity. My very best wishes (talk) 01:13, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

Morel was a commander of Polish communist camps only

10:01, 27 May 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xx236 (talk • contribs)

Wasn't he also briefly in the the NKVD? Or is that incorrect? I removed multiple instances of "communist" prior to government, as it seems superfluous - we don't describe the form of government prior to each use of "government" or "authorities" in most articles on Wikipedia. Icewhiz (talk) 05:35, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Dorota Bor*czek

The survivor Dorota Boriczek described Morel as "a barbaric and cruel man" who often personally tortured and killed prisoners.

The Independent article calls her Boriczek but in The Savage Peace, the on-screen text calls her Boroczek. What is her real surname and what is a typo? --Error (talk) 01:07, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Neither Boriczek nor Boroczek but: Boreczek. :-) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:16B8:2A02:F00:74C5:DA0B:8A84:9264 (talk) 18:27, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 December 2023

The original WIKIPEDIA text says: Morel's mother, father and one brother were killed by the Blue Police during Christmas of 1942.[10][better source needed] Here is another source for this info: JOHN SACK in his book 'An eye for an eye' on page 67 writes about Salomon Morel: He was twenty when the Germans invaded, but his curse during the war was the Polish collaborators. Poles, not Germans, picked up his father, mother, and one brother in Christmas week, 1942, as Shlomo watched from the top of a haystack, hay in his mouth lest the Poles hear him cry. "Where are your other sons?" said the Poles, but Shlomo's mother wouldn't say, and the Poles, not the Germans, punished her by shooting the father, then brother, then her. Zalek Bloom (talk) 20:51, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Shadow311 (talk) 01:30, 6 December 2023 (UTC)