Talk:Safvet-beg Bašagić

File:Safvet_beg_Basagic.jpg may be deleted

I have tagged File:Safvet_beg_Basagic.jpg, which is in use in this article for deletion because it does not have a copyright tag. If a copyright tag is not added within seven days the image will be deleted. --Chris 00:45, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Bosniak and Croat

The article describes him that way. Is that correct? Varlaam (talk) 09:00, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

It wil be more proper to say Croat with muslim religion — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.115.65.17 (talk) 15:41, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

From Alija Nametak's book Sarajevske uspomene, on page 19 (for Bašagić's 60th birthday, 6. V. 1930.), describes him [1]: Ne ću pretjerati ako ustvrdim da je dr. Safvet beg Bašagić najveći Bošnjak poslije Gazi Husrev bega, najveći Hrvat iz ovih krajeva nakon turske ere i zadnji beg nakon riješenja agrarnog pitanja. Translation: I will not overdo it if assert that Dr. Safvet beg Bašagić is greatest Bosniak after Gazi Husrev Bey, greatest Croat from these areas after the Turkish era and the last Bey after solution of the agrarian question.--Rovoobo Talk 10:11, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Basagic did not once declare himself Croat, and used instead the term Bosniaks for the Muslim population in Bosnia. It is correct on the other hand to say that he was Croat friendly and supported Bosnian-Croatian unity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.230.54.125 (talk) 13:26, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Nope, he used term Bošnjak for people living in region of Bosnia, same as he used term Hercegovac for a guy from Herzegovina region, that's all. --Wüstenfuchs 15:28, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Instead of coming with unfounded claims which you never, ever, support with references perhaps you should take time to read through the sources provided by other users (me). It is classical, mainstream, Croat nationalist discourse to discard the term Bosniak as something regional rather than ethnic despite the fact it is the term Bosnian Croat that is something rather recent and constructed out of the last century's nationalism. Even if we presume your invoked source is accurately cited, regarding Basagic's membership in the Croat nationalist party, it still doesn't make him Croat - no where did he ever proclaim himself or the Bosnian Muslims as "Croats", but he merely advocated Bosnian-Croatian relations. See the source, ironically written by a Croat himself, and assert yourself that Basagic used the term Bosniak for the Bosnian Muslims (it is an excerpt at Google Books). You have been previously warned and even banned for aggressive editing and warring as far as I can tell, please, unless you have reliable sources, do not enter Croat categories in the article. However, I know for a fact you will not find them because he never declared himself Croat regardless of how much Croat nationalist want to angle it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.230.54.125 (talk) 17:12, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

What is more, I really can't find anything on Basagic ever being a member in the Croat Nationalist Party despite your claimed citation, which is by the way wrongly spelled, it should be Kamberovic Husnija (Bosniak historian). Moreover, that citation is dealing with the biography of Mehmed Spaho, not Basagic? All of this raises some suspicion with me that the source might have been abused, and I would hope to see a scanned copy of the page (no. 21) confirming what is stated in this article. I don't know if you personally invoked this source? In which case I am sure you could provide us with a scanned copy. 90.230.54.125 (talk) 17:40, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Never mind I just found a PDF version of the book online and will be shortly confirming the citation myself. 90.230.54.125 (talk) 17:45, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

The following is page 21 in the claimed source:

• iznijela molbe stanovništva BiH za pomoć u hrani.25 Izaslanstvo je 4. marta 1918. primio ugarski predsjednik Vlade dr. Alexander Wekerle, kome je Spaho opisivao teško stanje u vezi s prehranom stanovništva u Bosni i Hercegovini. Izaslanstvo je 7. marta primio i ratni ministar Stöger-Steiner, kome je Spaho opširno obrazlagao Memorandum naroda Bosne i Hercegovine, u kojem se ukazuje na pretjerane zahtjeve vojne uprave u Bosni i Hercegovini oko rekvizicije stoke, sijena, slame, vune, kože i tako dalje. Sutradan je izaslanstvo u Beču primio i austrijski ministar predsjednik dr. Seidler, kome je Spaho podnio molbu naroda iz Bosne i Hercegovine da se omogući više krompira za sadnju. Delegaciju je primio i car Karlo 10. marta 1918. godine, koga je Spaho također molio da se pomogne narodu u Bosni i Hercegovini kako bi se poboljšale prehrambene prilike. Svoju molbu Spaho je završio uvjeravajući cara kako vojnici iz Bosne i Hercegovine na raznim frontovima junački ratuju «za odbranu monarhije. Očito zbog lojalnog stava prema monarhiji Spaho je 2. maja 1918. u Sarajevu dobio i orden cara Franje Josipa sa viteškim krstom, što je jedan od pokazatelja kako u to doba on sigurno još uvijek dvoji oko budućnosti Bosne i Hercegovine i Bošnjaka.26 Tek u Sarkotićevom telegramu caru i kralju povodom boravka grofa Tisze u Sarajevu od 20. do 23. IX. 1918. godine, dr. Mehmed Spaho i dr. Halidbeg Hrasnica navedeni su kao bošnjački prvaci jugoslavenske orijentacije. Naime, Tisza je za vrijeme svoje misije, koju mu je povjerio car, došao u Sarajevo 20. septembra i istu večer se sastao sa bivšim predsjednikom Sabora dr. Safvet-begom Bašagićem, sekretarom Trgovačke komore dr. Mehmedom Spahom i advokatom dr. Halid-begom Hrasnicom. U tom razgovoru Bašagić je zagovarao ideju da se sve hrvatske zemlje ujedine u jedno tijelo, «a ako to nije moguće, da Bosna i Hercegovina dobiju autonomiju, dok su se ostala dvojica izjasnila za rješenje u jugoslavenskom smislu: da se bosansko pitanje riješi na temelju jugoslavenskog ujedinjenja. Spaho se žalio na postupak prema Muslimanima za vrijeme rata, jer su vojne vlasti uzimale i starce i djecu u vojsku. Žalio se na ekonomske prilike i postupak pri rekviziciji; rekao je da su opreke između Muslimana i stanovnika drugih vjera u Bosni, kakve su postojale prije rata, u nevolji postale mnogo blaže, a da je jugoslavenskom stanovištu sklon najveći dio naroda». Nakon razgovora sa Spahom, Mehmed Spaho do kraja Prvog svjetskog rata. 21

Nowhere is anything whatsoever said on Basagic's alleged membership in the Croat nationalist party. The text does however speak of Basagic's support for the unification of Bosnia and Croatia, although taken a bit out of context in the article. Hence, the source does not corroborate the claim that Basagic was member of the Croat nationalist party, and so the source appears to have been abused by someone. This leaves me no choice but to remove the statement on his alleged membership altogether until Wustenfuchs or someone else provides an actual source on the talk page here. If anyone wishes to read through the source themselves the link is http://www.vkbi.ba/Mehmed%20Spaho%20-%20Politicka%20Biografija%20.pdf, you may use Google translate for a translation into English. 90.230.54.125 (talk) 18:06, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Wustenfuchs, a word of caution, do not abuse the sources by downright lying about them. I have searched through the entire book for Hrvatska Narodna Zajednica and Safvet Beg Basagic, without finding the slightest mention of any alleged membership in the Croat nationalist party. Given your unfortunate background with various bans I would see it inappropriate for you to continue claiming Basagic membership. 90.230.54.125 (talk) 18:19, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

In this book Hrvatsko podrijetlo bosansko-hercegovačkih Muslimana: rasprave i članci, izbor i uvod Petar Šarac i Miljenko Primorac, Hrvatska hercegovačka zajednica "Herceg-Stjepan" Zagreb, 1992., on pages 52-55 there is an article from Bašagić's book Bošnjaci i Hercegovci u islamskoj književnosti, Sarajevo, 1912.

Dr. Safvet beg Bašagić Prijelaz bogumila na islam p. 54. "Već godine 1474. počimaju naši stari izbijati na površinu kao visoki vojnički i građanski dostojanstvenici. Od godine 1544. do 1612., dakle kroz šezdeset i osam godina, sjedilo je na stolici velikih vezira devet Hrvata, koji su kroz rečeno razdoblje 52 godine tresli Istokom i Zapadom. Osim toga, koliko je meni poznato, bilo je pet Hrvata zamjenika velikih vezira, više vezira i bezbroj beglerbega i begova, koji su upravljali raznim pokrajinama i okružjima. (...)

Evo što piše glasoviti turski povjesničar Aali u svojoj povijesti Kunhul Ahbar, koja je poznata pod imenom Tarihi Aali: "Što se tiče plemena Hrvata, koji se pripisuju rijeci Bosni, njihov se značaj odražava u veseloj naravi; oni su u Bosni poznati i po tekućoj rijeci Bosni prozvani. Duša im je čista, a lice svijetlo, većinom su stasiti i prostodušni, njihovi likovi kao značajevi naginju pravednosti. Golobradi mladići i lijepi momci poznati su po krajinama radi naočitosti i ponositosti, a daroviti spisatelji kao umni i misaoni ljudi. Uzrok je tome, što je Bog, koji sve uzvisuje i uzdiže, u osmanlijskoj državi podigao vrijednost tome hvaljenom narodu dostojanstvom, i čast njegove sreće uzvisio kao visok uzrast i poletnu dušu, jer se među njima malo nalazi nasilnika. Većina onih, koji su došli do visokih položajeva odlikuju se veledušjem, to jest čašću i ponosom; malo ih je koji su tjesnogrudni, zavidni i pohlepni. Neustrašivi su u boju i na mejdanu, a u društvu, gdje se uživa i pije, prostodušni. Obično su prijazni, dobroćudni i ljubezni. Osobito se ovo odlično pleme odlikuje izvanrednom ljepotom i iznimnim uzrastom.

Na sljedećoj stranici povjesničar Aali opet se osvrće na nas, pa veli: "Bez sumnje Bosanci, koji se pribrajaju hrvatskom narodu, odlikuju se kao prosti vojnici dobrotom i pobožnošću, kao age i zapovjednici obrazovanošću i vrlinom; ako dođu do časti velikih vezira, u upravi su dobroćudni, ponosni i pravedni, pa ih velikaši hvale i odlični umnici slave."

By reading these I'd say Bašagić here refers to himself as Croat?:

Već godine 1474. počimaju naši stari izbijati na površinu kao visoki vojnički i građanski dostojanstvenici. Od godine 1544. do 1612., dakle kroz šezdeset i osam godina, sjedilo je na stolici velikih vezira devet Hrvata, Translation: Already in year 1474 our ancestors started to crop up on the surface as high military and civil dignitaries. From the year 1544 to the 1612, therefore through sixty-eight years, there was nine Croats sitting on a chair of Big Vizier,

Na sljedećoj stranici povjesničar Aali opet se osvrće na nas, pa veli: "Bez sumnje Bosanci, koji se pribrajaju hrvatskom narodu, odlikuju se kao prosti vojnici dobrotom i pobožnošću, kao age i zapovjednici obrazovanošću i vrlinom; Translation: On the next page, historian Aali again looks at us, and says: "Without a doubt Bosnians, who number among Croatian people, are characterized as simple soldiers of goodness and piety, as Aghas and commanders with education and virtue;--Rovoobo Talk 07:29, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Since your translating everything else why not also the title of the book: "The Croat origin of the Bosnian-Herzegovnian Muslims:...". The title alone gives away the nationalist tone of the work; no wonder, it being written by the "Croat Herzegovnian association" in 1992 (a nasty year in the history of Yugoslavs). Below, and not unexpectedly, I expose the bold nationalist falsification of the work by Safvet beg Basagic. Instead of reading Basagic's work in secondary (nationalist) sources I would like to urge you to pick up Basagic's book straight away the next time. Basagic's work has namely been deliberately tampered with in this book, instead of Od godine 1544. do 1612., dakle kroz šezdeset i osam godina, sjedilo je na stolici velikih vezira devet Hrvata (From the year 1544 to the 1612, therefore through sixty-eight years, there was nine Croats sitting on a chair of Big Vizier), Basagic in reality writes Od godine 1544. do 1612., dakle kroz šezdeset i osam godina, sjedilo je na stolici velikih vezira devet nasih Zemljaka (From the year 1544 to the 1612, therefore through sixty-eight years, there was nine of our Compatriots sitting on a chair of Big Vizier). That may be verified here: scanned copy of the relevant page in Basagic's book and at this Google books link featuring Basagic's work. Unfortunately the concerned paragraph is largely out of view at Google books, but it still fully possible to discern at page 17 that na stolici ve- is followed by zira devet na_š_ih z-e-m-l-j-a-k-a (8 letter word apparent). As for the material by Ottoman historian Evliya Çelebi ("Aali"), supposedly cited by Basagic in his own work, those are the views of an independent historian presented, but not necessarily represented, by Basagic in any way. I will not go into what Çelebi meant or not but it is worth mentioning that he purportedly also concluded that Bulgarians live in great numbers in Sarajevo and that Bosnian resembles Latin to a great extent, I will leave the rest unsaid. Importantly, citing the material of a historian does not per definition involve representation on Basagic's behalf, in fact Basagic writes "Aali opet se osvrće na nas, pa veli (Aali again looks at us, and so claims)", hence your English translation fails to accurately capture Basagic's linguistic sentiment in that sentence. Once more, no sources or evidence has been presented to conclude that Basagic unequivocally considered himself Croat, moreover a highly disputable and deceitful source has been used, proving only that Ottoman historian Çelebi probably perceived the Bosniaks as Croats, if I may say so, wrongly. Interestingly, when searching Google for portions of the paragraph pasted by you I only seem to find occasional hits posted in Croat nationalist forums online, not least www.ustaskipokret.com, at Google books there is not a single hit. Seemingly, the text before and after the wrongly cited From the year 1544 to the 1612, therefore through sixty-eight years, there was nine Croats (should be our Compatriots) sitting on a chair of Big Vizier appears to not be part of Basagic's works at all (neither Bošnjaci i Hercegovci u islamskoj književnosti nor Kratka uputa u prošlost BiH (1463-1850). This just gets better and better by the minute. 90.230.54.125 (talk) 21:52, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

I don't like this from you:"This just gets better and better by the minute." Translating book titles, I don't think it is a practice on wiki maybe I'm wrong? The title is there in Croatian language, so, nothing hidden. Unfortunatelly I don't have that Bašagić's book from 1912 to compare. It is very strange to me they would go to that lenghts of falsifying when it can easily be compared what they've printed and what Bašagić wrote in his book?? I don't think that veli translates to claims probably closer would be govori, talks. Claims would be tvrditi? Anyways maybe somebody knows the correct translation. It was not my intention to distort in any way but provide quotes I have seen in books I have. I have translated with a help of google translation as my english is not exact.

• I also have Mirsad Bakšić's book Doprinos muslimana hrvatskoj kulturi i državi, "Dr. Safvet-beg Bašagić" Udruga za promicanje prava hrvatskih državljana Pripadnika kulturnog i tradicijskog kruga Islama, Zagreb, 2011., ISBN 978-953-56769-0-4, where article is printed from Alija Nametak: Dr. Safvet-beg Bašagić (1870-1934) on p. 143-148. Its an esay published in Bašagić's book Odabrane pjesme, Sarajevo, 1944. And Alija Nametak (He was Bašagić's contemporary, and I think he knew Bašagić personally?) constantly refers to Bašagić as Croat. p. 147.:"Još kao gimnazijalac sudjelovao je u polaganju kamena temeljca Starčevićeva doma u Zagrebu, čime je udario na se neizbrisivi pečat hrvatstva za čitav svoj život. Još je značajnija crta njegova karaktera, da nikad u javnom životu i radu nije zatajio svoje hrvatstvo." Translation: "As early as a high school student, he participated in the laying of the foundation stone of Starčević home in Zagreb, which has struck the indelible stamp of Croatdom on him for his entire life. Another most important trait of his character, is that he never kept secret his Croatdom in public life and work."
• In another Alija Nametak's book, which I have posted above, Sarajevske uspomene on p. 19-25. there's Nametak's article from 1930 on the occasion Bašagić's 60th birthday and there he refers to him as Bosniak and Croat too. p. 19.: Ne ću pretjerati ako ustvrdim da je dr. Safvet beg Bašagić najveći Bošnjak poslije Gazi Husrev bega, najveći Hrvat iz ovih krajeva nakon turske ere i zadnji beg nakon riješenja agrarnog pitanja. Translation: I will not overdo it if assert that Dr. Safvet beg Bašagić is greatest Bosniak after Gazi Husrev Bey, greatest Croat from these areas after the Turkish era and the last Bey after solution of the agrarian question.
• There's also a book by Ivo Banac, Nacionalno pitanje u Jugoslaviji: Porijeklo, povijest, politika, Durieux, Zagreb, 1995. ISBN 953-188-048-4, where it is written that Bašagić was an activist of Starčević's party in Zagreb and declared Croat, p. 297.:I budući da sva vrhovništva umiru dostojanstveno, samrtna pjesma "Bošnjaka", koju je 1891. spjevao Safvet-beg Bašagić, sve uvaženiji muslimanski pjesnik veoma plemenita roda, glasila je ovako: "Od Trebinja do brodskijeh vrata, nije bilo Srba ni Hrvata." Tri godine poslije Bašagić je postao aktivist Starčevićeve stranke u Zagrebu i deklarirani Hrvat.
• Same book p. 299.:Pretežna većina prvog sveučilišnog naraštaja Muslimana držala je sebe Hrvatima. Neki od njih, posebno Sefvet-beg Bašagić, čitave su stranice ispisivali u "Osvitu", svjedočeći na taj način o prihvaćanju Muslimana i islama unutar nacionalnih i kulturnih granica hrvatstva. No translation by me, maybe somebody else can do it? Another thing, is if somebody have access to "Osvit" to see his writings from there, would be good? It was a paper published in Mostar at the end of 19th century I think.--Rovoobo Talk 23:55, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

I am deeply sorry if I offended you Rovoobo , you have my word it won't repeat. I will look through your sources in short and comment on them accordingly. Perhaps rather unrelated to Basagic himself, I find the whole paragraph dealing with Evlija Celibi very awkard, whenever I search Google for it I seem to only get hits at Croat forums, but I have obtained Celibi's book at this link and will read through it first-hand to see whatever he might have said. I have already been able to find information indicating that Celibi on numerous occasions referred to the language of the Bosniaks as Bosnian, even in comparison to Croatian, which one would have to say contradicts his alleged understanding of the Bosniaks as Croats. As this discusion might be unrelated perhaps you would find it more appropriate to deal with Celibi's work on our talk pages? 90.230.54.125 (talk) 09:03, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

I will have to excuse myself since it appears that Evliya Çelebi and the historian "Aali" are two different Ottoman scholars. I have also been able to confirm that "Aali" really wrote that paragraph. Still on Basagic's behalf, citing Aali does not imply that Basagic agreed with him. I suspect Basagic was more interested in his semantic description of the Bosniaks (Croats?) than his contribution to ethnology. I don't have Basagic's complete book to somehow resolve this, however writing pa veli casts a certain amount of reservation in my world. Whatever the case may be, until either one of us can provide Basagic's entire book we cannot possibly conclude what Basagic wanted to say with the citation. However, it is clear from my previous post that Compatriots was dishonestly transformed into Croats in your source.

• Regarding the article by Alija Nametak sampled in Mirsad Bakšić's book Doprinos muslimana hrvatskoj kulturi i državi: his statements represent the views of an individual, and by no means Basagic personally. It is what you would call "circumstantial evidence", if you wish to enter Alija Nametak as a source you may do so, but make sure to start of with "According to Alija Nametak..". However, then again, once could also ask what Nametak exactly meant by a stamp of Croatdom, leaving also this open to interpretation.
• Sarajevske uspomene, p. 19-25: once again, Alija Nametak's individual opinion and description.
• Does Ivo Banac's book provide a source to the claim that Basagic personally declared himself Croat? Otherwise the sentence seems highly editorialized, and Banac even underscores the ambivalence in Basagic's supposed self-identification as Croat by making reference to his "anti-Croat/Serb" song "Bosniak" which I have translated below and sourced.
• Once again, does Ivo Banac provide a source to his claims, otherwise the material is to be considered editorial and - if cited - should begin with "According to Ivo Banac..". So yes, obtaining the original Osvit writings could help us conclude what Basagic's stance was (at least in this period).
• Safvet-beg Basagic, Bosniak, 1891: Znaš Bošnjače, nije davno bilo, Sveg' mi sv'jeta nema petnaest ljeta, Kad u našoj Bosni ponositoj, l junačkoj zemlji Hercegovoj, Od Trebinja do brodskijeh vrata Nije bilo Srba ni Hrvata. A danas se kroz svoje hire, Oba stranca ko u svome šire.[...]Oba su nas gosta saletila, Da nam otmu najsvetije blago, Naše ime ponosno i drago (Don't you know Bosniak, it was not long ago, less than fifteen summers I vow, When in our proud Bosnia , And heroic country Herzegovina, From Trebinje to Brodskijeh door There were no Serbs or Croats. And today, through their capriciousness, Both foreigners in their spread. [...] Both guests have overwhelmed us, to take away our holiest treasure, Our name proud and pleased.). Verify here. In my opinion any attempts to prove that Basagic unequivocally considered himself Croat are futile. There is evidence on the contrary indicating his firm identification as Bosniak and of the Bosnian Muslims as Bosniaks (see the source entered by me in the article). The most feasible scenario, I believe, would be to stick to indisputable facts: 1) Basagic was a Bosnian scholar (as the introduction states) and 2) he was born into a Bosniak family. Any supposed identification as Croat by Basagic may be entered with reference to Ivo Banac or Alija Nametak (or any other reliable source for that matter), but not presented as an indisputable fact, which it is not. Whereas one can safely assume that Basagic was pro-Croat (as opposed to pro-Serb which a number of other Bosniak scholars of the time were), whether this meant him fully adopting Croat identity is nonetheless inconclusive, and he will continue to foremost be recognized as a Bosnian writer (which is the case in English language sources). 90.230.54.125 (talk) 19:40, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

No hard feelings. Regarding Banac, these are Banac's full sentences and sources.

p. 297.:

• I budući da sva vrhovništva umiru dostojanstveno, samrtna pjesma "Bošnjaka", koju je 1891. spjevao Safvet-beg Bašagić, sve uvaženiji muslimanski pjesnik veoma plemenita roda, glasila je ovako: "Od Trebinja do brodskijeh vrata, nije bilo Srba ni Hrvata." Tri godine poslije Bašagić je postao aktivist Starčevićeve stranke u Zagrebu i deklarirani Hrvat.⁶

Notes: 6. Muhsin Rizvić, Književno stvaranje muslimanskih pisaca u Bosni i Hercegovini u doba austrougarske vladavine, sv 1, Sarajevo 1973., str. 148.

p. 299.:

• Pretežna većina prvog sveučilišnog naraštaja Muslimana držala je sebe Hrvatima. Neki od njih, posebno Sefvet-beg Bašagić, čitave su stranice ispisivali u "Osvitu", svjedočeći na taj način o prihvaćanju Muslimana i islama unutar nacionalnih i kulturnih granica hrvatstva.¹⁴

Notes: 14. Rizvić, Književno stvaranje, sv 1, str. 182.

Another thing is that after the "Bošnjak" song he wrote this one, in his first published work Trofanda iz hercegovačke dubrave published in Zagreb in 1896.:

Čarobna kćeri!

ČAROBNA kćeri prirode majske,

Otvori svoje kapije rajske,

O daj me pusti u bajni dvor!

Gdje milo poje

Pjesmice svoje

Istočnih vila veseli kor.

Da njime kajde u naše pjesme

Slijem, da teku ko rajske česme,

Jer hrvatskog jezika šum

Može da goji,

Može da spoji,

Istok i zapad, pjesmu i um.

Sad silno huči, ko burno more,

Sad blago kao kroz vilin-dvore

Tajnih duhova čarobni poj,

A sada bruji,

Kao da zuji

Kroz bašču pčela prognani roj.

Sad opet nježno kao da tuži

Bulbulče malo na rumen-ruži,

Jadeći gorko na udes svoj. -

Tako se milje

I sve smilje

U tebi stapa, jeziče moj!

Regarding Nametak, the thing is, have Bašagić ever corrected Nametak's claims and descriptions of him as a Croat? One has to consider it, as Nametak wrote it in 1930 while Bašagić was still alive and it was for his 60th birthday at the time. Another confusing thing is that he describes him also as the greatest Bosniak after Gazi Husrev Bey, greatest Croat from these areas after the Turkish era.--Rovoobo Talk 02:45, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

You know, Banac is a prominent history profesor at the Yale. He is is the most reliable source. Songs and poems can't be used as a source. --Wüstenfuchs 02:54, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

I didn't post it as a source.--Rovoobo Talk 04:08, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Number 90.230.54.125, it looks to me that a scanned copy you posted [2] is not from the book Bošnjaci i Hercegovci u islamskoj književnosti, Sarajevo, 1912, but rather from a book Kratka uputa u prošlost Bosne i Herceegovine (1463-1850), Sarajevo, 1900. Have a look at p. 60-61, they're the same. So in order to be 100% sure the authors of Hrvatsko podrijetlo bosansko-hercegovačkih Muslimana: rasprave i članci, Zagreb, 1992 changed devet naših zemljaka from Bašagić's article from 1912 book into devet Hrvata we would have to have both books in hands to compare the original text from Bašagić's 1912 book and theirs from 1992. The one you also posted [3], and is a reprint from 1986, confirms the difference in texts (instead of devet Hrvata, there I can recognize devet naših zemljaka). Can the reprint be trusted?--Rovoobo Talk 09:58, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Ok, what doeas Banac says about his nationality? He is the most reliable at the moment. And second, the original is always better then a reprint. --Wüstenfuchs 12:01, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

After the part about Osvit on p. 299 he continues on p. 299-300.:

Kad se uzme u obzir da su Osvit objavljivali franjevci, važno je uočiti da su neki članci što su ih napisali Muslimani bili članci o izrazito islamskim vjerskim temama. Sam je Bašagić objašnjavao integrativni aspekt hrvatske kulture u svojoj pjesmi Čarobna kćeri (1896.), u kojoj je molio da mu se dopusti unijet i istočnjačke melodije u "naše pjesme":

"Jer hrvatskog jezika šum

Može da goji,

Može da spoji,

Istok i zapad, pjesmu i um."¹⁵

Stadlerovo klerikalno hrvatstvo pojavilo se kada je muslimanska borba za vjersko-školsku autonomiju u okviru habsburške katoličke države bila na svom vrhuncu (sa zahtjevom Muslimana da sami upravljaju vjerskim dobrima (vakufima) i vjerskim školama (mearif)).¹⁶ Ta je borba vođena od 1899. do 1908., a zbog Stadlerovih nastojanja hrvatske su nacionalne ideologije među Muslimanima pretrpjele štetu, jer su potaknula suradnju srpskih i muslimanskih autonomističkih pokreta u Bosni i Hercegovini.

Stadler ipak nije bio kadar zapriječiti sve putove hrvatsko-muslimanskog međusobnog približavanja. Kulturnu renesansu bosanskih Muslimana, koja je započela 1900. s objavljivanjem lista Behar i osnivanjem muslimanskog kulturnog društva Gajret (1903.), usmjeravali su Muslimani hrvatske orijentacije, posebno Bašagić, Hadžić, romanopisac Edhem Mulabdić i Musa Ćazim Ćatić, tragični lirik istočnjačkih modaliteta, koji je uništio svoje zdravlje po bijednim mehanama, pokušavajući, kako je jednom napisao, kapljama rumene vinske čaše rasplamsati vatru islama.¹⁷ Premda je broj muslimanskih intelektualaca koji su se izjasnili kao Hrvati u prvoj polovici XX. stoljeća premašio broj onih koji su sebe držali Srbima, možda u omjeru deset prema jedan, barem trećina muslimanskih intelektualaca i velika većina običnih Muslimana izbjegavala je da bude zahvaćena bilo kojim procesom "nacionalizacije". Bosanske muslimanske mase nagonski su osjećale da zahtjevi za njihovim nacionalnim određivanjem - bilo na hrvatsku bilo na srpsku stranu - cijepaju njihovu zajednicu, osobito stoga što je hrvatsko-srpski spor bio neobično žestok u Bosni i Hercegovini. Biti Srbin-Musliman značilo je zapravo biti anti-Hrvat, i obrnuto. To ne znači da muslimanski seljaci, gradski obrtnici i mase te pripadnici niže ilmije nisu davali prednost jednoj ili drugoj strani u velikoj bosanskoj igri. Prije aneksije (1908.) oni su općenito bili skloni suradnji sa Srbima, braneći nominalni otomanski suverenitet nad Bosnom i Hercegovinom, premda, dakako, iz drugačijih razloga nego Srbi, koji su željeli spriječiti definitivno uključenje Bosne i Hercegovine u Austro-Ugarsku, čime su zapravo pripremali tlo za njezino uključenje u Srbiju.

Notes:
15. Ferid Karihman, priredio, Soj i odžak ehli-islama: Zbirka pjesama o domu i rodu Muslimana hrvatskog koljena i jezika, Munchen 1974., str. 43.
16. O tom pitanju v. Nusret Šehić, Autonomni pokret Muslimana za vrijeme austrougarske uprave u Bosni i Hercegovini, Sarajevo 1980.
17. Usprkos pojedinačnoj hrvatskoj orijentaciji svojih urednika, Behar je izrazitu hrvatsku liniju prihvatio tek 1908.-1910., kad mu je urednikom bio Ljudevit Dvorniković, koji je bio katolik, pa je Behar otvorio svoje stranice hrvatskim katoličkim autorima, a oni su od tada listu davali dvostruko više priloga od Muslimana. U tome razdoblju su mnogi muslimanski autori, osobito oni tradicionalniji i teološki obrazovani intelektualci, napustili Behar i pridružili se Gajretu, koji je sve vise prihvaćao srpsku orijentaciju (i koji je imao i svoj list). Međutim, nije ih privlačilo Gajretovo srpstvo, nego činjenica da je Gajret "intenzivnije njegovao muslimanski narodni duh i bio izraz mentaliteta muslimanske etničke, običajne i domaće osobenosti". Muhsin Rizvić, Behar: Književnoistorijska monografija, Sarajevo 1971., str. 370.--Rovoobo Talk 09:34, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Rovoobo, thank you for your information. I will review it in soon time and propose on how to integrate the material into the article appropriately. However, the fact that English language sources seldom or never speak of Basagic's alleged self-identification as Croat when dealing with his life remains, and so we have to beware of original research (or conclusions). While I do agree to some point with Wustenfuchs that "song and poems" cannot be used as definitive evidence they still do have a bearing on Basagic's national sentiment and not least the political context in which it often took place. If we ever want to argue anything other than the neutral understanding of Basagic, as a Bosnian writer, other classifications (e.g. as Croat) will have to require proper background information provided in the article (i.e. the political landscape and trends of 19th century "Yugoslav" politics and the orientation of Muslim parties in the region). Needless to say, this will presuppose a substantial expansion of the article. Simply writing "Basagic declared Croat when joining Starcevic's party" has a low explanatory value on its own. As mentioned, I will offer a suggestion in due time. 90.230.54.125 (talk) 16:06, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

This will need detailed explanation. First, when did he joined the Party of Rights; when he become a writer; his political activity (i. e. unification with Croatia, for example and such). It would be great if anyone is able to find his political activity during the first years of the Austiran-Hungarian occupation of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I'm able to find infos in 1890s and 1910s though. When I find time I'll expand that part. --Wüstenfuchs 17:39, 19 November 2012 (UTC)