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Basis
editThis article is copied word for word from "The Mirror of Literature, Amusement, and Instruction", vol. 12, printed 1828. See as reproduced on Project Gutenber WVhybrid 06:52, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
- Please note: there have been quite a few edits to this article since the above comment was posted. MishaPan (talk) 21:26, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
- Should this be archived then? --Yaush (talk) 22:54, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
- This talk page has no archive and, given the limited number of comments, doesn't need one. Str1977 (talk) 14:04, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
- Should this be archived then? --Yaush (talk) 22:54, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
Catholic Belief
editIt is curious how no mention is made that Catholics believe that the sacramental bread literally becomes the flesh of Jesus Christ during the Mass.75.44.220.134 (talk) 21:11, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
- Not only has it been mentioned since then, the above description of Catholic belief is seriously inaccurate. Catholics believe that the SUBSTANCE of the sacramental gifts change from bread and wine to the body and blood of Christ, while the ACCIDENTS remain the as they were. Str1977 (talk) 14:03, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
Mithraism etc, and other pagan cultures
editThere are some issues with the following sequence taken from the intro:
Sacramental breads were also used in Mithraic ritual,< ref >Willoughby, H. R. (2008) [1929]. Pagan Regeneration: A Study of Mystery Initiations in the Graeco-Roman World. United Kingdom: Wipf and Stock Publishers. pp. 161–2.</ref> and in ancient Egyptian, Aztec, and other pagan cultures.< ref >Carpenter, E. (1920). Pagan & Christian Creeds: Their Origin and Meaning. Harcourt, Brace. pp. 66–8.</ref>
- The intro should only summarize what is already covered further down in the article - as it happens this is the only reference to such usage in Mithraism and the others.
- It is based on pretty old literature (Willoughby is from 1929, Carpenter from 1920) - in the realms of comparative religion and especially regarding Mithraism older authors have written quite a lot of stuff that modern scholarship would no longer propose, especially the notion that Mithraism is "prior to Christianity". There are two kinds of Mithra-religion, one Persian, one Roman. While the former predates Christianity, most claims about Mithraism refer to the Roman version, which is actually a phenomenon of the 2nd and 3rd century.
- Finally - and linked to the 2nd issue - sacramental bread requires a sacrament. That bread has been used in pre-Christian or non-Christian ritual is obvious (one only need to look at the Old Testament) but whether these religions had sacraments is another matter.
Str1977 (talk) 14:17, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
I only now realize that an editor unilterally changed the definition of "sacramental bread" to mean "any bread in religious ritual" - well, that's not what the word means and hence I reverted that. I nevertheless have retained some mentioning of Mithraism and paganism in the intro. Str1977 (talk) 14:27, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
History
editpt-wiki says that Pope Gregory XII was responsible for making the host the main symbol of the mass. It cites a very brief source. Are there any other sources about the history of the host in the Catholic church that mentions this pope? Mateussf (talk) 17:21, 30 December 2022 (UTC)