Talk:Rizo Rizov

This is getting out of hand

@Jingiby and @Kluche you've both inserted your own attempts of BPOV And NPOV, how about we have a conversation here to decide how to more properly form this article in a NPOV instead of fighting in an endless editing war hoping one side stops, please help us come to a compromise instead of fighting Gurther (talk) 22:11, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Gurther, I fail to see what is the issue regarding my edits - I've been reformulating the text in order to bring it up to Wikipedia standards, whilst keeping the information effectively the same.

I think in order for this to be a constructive and effective discussion, you should probably state what you dispute in the edits.

Hopefully this will be resolved quickly and peacefully, best regards Kluche (talk) 22:42, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

I think the article has now been reduced to an acceptably neutral form. Regards. Jingiby (talk) 22:50, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

No jingby you've pretty much stripped away all their pro-macedonian actions they've done in their life and pretty much turned it into a husk of a corpse with un-well formated and pretty much a short cess pit of sources, this isnt a wikipedia, this is a dumpster, this is why i made this talk page Gurther (talk) 23:06, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

The opinion of the Macedonian historian Ivan Katardzhiev was deleted without reasonable explaination. Per him all left-wing Macedonian activists, former members of the IMRO (United) as Rizov, never managed to get rid of their strong Bulgarophile sentiments. He claims all left-wing Macedonian revolutionaries from the period until the early 1930s declared themselves as "Bulgarians" and he asserts that the political separatism of some Macedonian revolutionaties toward official Bulgarian policy was yet only political phenomenon without ethnic character. Katardzhiev claims also all the left-wing veterans remained only at the level of political, not of national separatism. Thus, they practically continued to feel themselves as Bulgarians, i.e. they didn't develop clear national separatist position even in Communist Yugoslavia after WWII. For more: Академик Катарџиев, Иван. Верувам во националниот имунитет на македонецот, интервју за списание "Форум", 22 jули 2000, број 329.Jingiby (talk) 06:57, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

- One historians interview isnt a great source for deciding an entire persons ethnicity, considering the fact neither he nor the innterviewer cited any sources

- You've taken the text out of context, he didnt say "Bulgarophile Sentiments" he said "they felt like Bulgarians" which is different

- He's the only historian to propose to idea, and only bulgarian historians follow this (with the exception of some bulgaro-americans) while a majority of the world agree that atleast most identified as macedonian

if you have more legitimate sources, please share them here, otherwise ill remove the "neutrality is disputed" tag Gurther (talk) 09:39, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Per Macedonian historian prof. Todor Cepreganov almost all Macedonian revolutionaries from the early 20th century era and beyond at some point of their life took pro-Bulgarian stands or pronounced themselves as Bulgarians and this fact is not disputed. See: Sinisa Jakov Marusic, New Statue Awakens Past Quarrels in Macedonia, in Balkan Transitional Justice - BIRN, 13 July 2012. Jingiby (talk) 10:52, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

You forgot to add what he also stated "You have to have in perspective the non-existence of a Macedonian state [at the time] and the strong influences of neighbouring countries. Many people were then educated in Bulgarian schools" which suggest the only reason they identified as such in their lifes was due to the propaganda by Bulgarian schools

"At the same time, official history rehabilitated only certain VMRO-era revolutionaries, like Goce Delcev, Nikola Karev and Dame Gruev, who they deemed deserving because they were not associated with the idea of union with Bulgaria"

so not almost all, according to him quite a lot were anti-bulgarian which is why they're still celebrated

Also again, he cites no sources, just because he is a historian doesn't make him able to change the identities of Macedonians Gurther (talk) 11:08, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

I advise you to accept what is explained to you and with which the other editors agree, and only you do not. Obviously, in these cases you are wrong, especially if the others' thesis is supported by secondary neutral sources, which you do not use at all. Jingiby (talk) 11:19, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Rizov's identity

I've decided to create a new section, since I know that this topic can be quite contentious.

As a preface I'd like to add that academic sources are considered more valuable than journalistic sources, as per Wikipedia policies.

That being said I've had limited success in finding English language sources which even mention Rizov, let alone his identity.

However the bulk of the sources presented in the article, to my knowledge, charaterize him as a Macedonian.

I'd like to also address Jingiby's statement above - Rizov is not explicitly mentioned, ergo it is a broad generalization and we must seek sources directly delving into Rizov. Currently those sources point that he was a Macedonian.

Some of the Bulgarian sources I could find, meanwhile, maintain that he was a Bulgarian.

A Solomonic solution would be the following: Rizo Rizov (Macedonian and Bulgarian: Ризо Ризов; 1 January 1872 — 6 January 1950) was a revolutionary was a socialist revolutionary from the region of Macedonia. He was a member of the Internal Macedonian Adrianople Revolutionary Organization and one of the founders of the Bulgarian People's Federative Party and IMRO (United). He is regarded as a Macedonian in North Macedonia and a Bulgarian in Bulgaria.

(of course coupled with sources).

I hope this solves the impending dispute. Kluche (talk) 11:37, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

I think the suggestion is good. However, Katardziev's analysis is quite accurate and should find a place in the article. The man makes it very clear what Rizov's identity was by mentioning it explicitly, and also how and when it changed, and what the consequences were. There are also other analysis of the identity of the members of IMRO United which indicate that it changed finally in the 1930s from Bulgarian to Macedonian, although not for all of them. Katardzhiev even claims that Vlahov himself in 1948, at a meeting of the Macedonian Communist Party, stated that this decision in 1930-s to recognize a separate Macedonian nation by the Komentern was a political mistake. Jingiby (talk) 11:49, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Order of languages

Nauka, please state a guideline/policy which supports your view, since this can be considered vandalism. The original order is/was Macedonian and then Bulgarian.Kluche (talk) 12:56, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

New disruption

I don't understand why the referenced text was removed from the introduction. None of the editors involved in the construction of the article, except one, has such destructive behavior. Jingiby (talk) 07:27, 28 February 2023 (UTC)