Talk:Rani of Jhansi

Comments

I am the author of the web site generously referenced by this article. Rather than edit the article I've decided to make my comments separately.

The Rani's birth date is unknown. There is a great deal of evidence for it being around about 1828, for example the Rani's vakil told John Lang in 1854 that she was 26. There is no evidence that I know of for the 1835 date. As the Rani was married in 1842, sometime in May, the 1835 date would have made her six and half years old.

The article gives the impression that the Rani started recruiting and army and preparing Jhansi's defences between 1854 and 1857. This is not so. This only started after the mutiny in Jhansi and more than likely in response to the ensuing lawless state of the area and in response to the attacks by Datia and Orchha.

Remarkably the death of the Rani is also uncertain, but probability seems to favour that she, and Mandar, were mortally wounded during a charge by the 8th Hussars outside Gwalior at Kotah-ki-serai.

Allen Copsey (www.copsey-family.org/~allenc/lakshmibai/) 17:25, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hello, it is really nice to hear from you. Thanks for the information, and clarifying certain issues and points..--Bhadani 18:05, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

As I understand it, it is pretty much unknown if the massacre of the British was done with the Rani's consent or not. I think it would be better to state this rather than "The massacre almost certainly occurred without the Rani's consent" ..--Phunting 8/8/06

I think you are serious?. --Bhadani 12:14, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Umm...Vakil means lawyer, right? The article should link to lawyer or something. Hindi-speakers aren't the only ones who will be reading this. FruitMart07 19:32, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Hello, I am a newbie and not a native English speaker so I didn't want to change anything in the original article. However, the chapter heading "First Indian War of Independence" is IMHO POV, the same as "Indian Mutiny" would be. I would suggest changing it to something more neutral like "The Uprising/Rebellion of 1857" or the like. Secondly, the article states that it has never been established whether the cartridges were actually greased with pork/beef fat. In many of the history books I am reading at the moment it says that it has in fact been confirmed that at least in some cases forbidden fats were used. Just my two cents... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.142.240.245 (talk) 01:22, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

The king of jhansi is died in 1820.

Baji Rao II and Chimnaji Appa

The article claims, "Manu was raised in the court of Baji Rao II, the last of the Maratha peshwas, where her father was an advisor to the Peshwa's brother, Chimnaji Appa." Now, as far as I know, Lakshmibai was born around 1828 and Baji Rao II's reign ended in 1818, 10 years earlier. So, how was she raised in the court of a king who no longer ruled? Also, as far as I know, Chimnaji Appa was the brother of Baji Rao I, who ruled the Marathas in the mid-1700's. Did Baji Rao II also have a brother named Chimnaji Appa or is there a mistake here? (I know that the TV series "Jhansi ki Rani" shows Manu in Baji Rao II's court and her interactions with Chimnaji Appa, but I wonder how accurate that is.) Could somebody please help clear up the facts here? Thanks! --Hnsampat (talk) 02:00, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Place of birth of rani Laxmibai

Article says Laxmibai was born in Waranasi, where as historical evidences show that she was born in village Dhavadashi Dist.Satara in Maharashtra. There is war memorial constructed in [Satara] which is built in memorey of 1857 struggle which has also mention about her birth place. Official reference http://www.satara.nic.in/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.112.84.138 (talk) 11:56, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Please don't say she fleed seeing the british

I have removed the statement "fleeing or overseeing the bombardment against the British from the Gwalior Fort." in the Death section. Because this was putting her Iconic image in Indian Women's history in a bad light. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vishwas008 (talk • contribs) 11:51, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Feel free to rephrase it, especially the fleeing part (which, I agree, is unfortunately phrased). Most contemporary references are uncertain as to how she died and the main theories are that (1) she was overseeing the bombardment of the British forces when she received a cannon shot wound; (2) she was cut down by a hussar when her army fought a rear guard action against the British (she might or might not have already been wounded by a bullet before this happened); (3) She was cut down by a hussar when the battle was lost and she and her army were trying to escape. Fleeing is definitely the wrong word because it implies running away, which was not the case. Rephrase it anyway you like as long as it reflects the fact that she might have died of bullet wounds or cut down by a sword or both. --Regent's Park (Boating Lake) 15:28, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

The word is "fled", not "fleed". Unfortunately this article is obviously largely written by Indian nationalists - the poor English and anti-British bias is very evident. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.197.15.138 (talk) 19:29, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Clarity

I recently rearranged and renamed parts of this article to comply with Wikipedia formatting templates, but there are still large portions of it that are unintelligible. Looking through the article's history I see that significant chunks of text have been taken out at various points that would add a great deal of information to the article and would clear up much of what is currently in it. Is there are reason why this information was removed? Most of the edits do not have summaries, which makes it difficult to know why certain changes were made. Thanks. -Sketchmoose (talk) 14:55, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Missing Information

As with sketchmoose, some new additions to this topic are removed by those not articulate enough to provide reason. Some historical points: 1) For three years prior to the 'revolt', the Rani had petitioned the Indian and British Governments for her deceased husband's inheritance. 2) On June 5th, 1857 the sepoys at Jhansi initiated mutiny by killing 3 British soldiers (Capt. Dunlop being one of them). Civilians (British and Eurasian) gatherd in the fort, and held out for 4 days. 3) Capt. Skene arranged an evacuation with the sepoys - but they were all murdered. 4) Letters by the Rani of Jhansi to Maj. Erskine claim that she could not offer the prisoners safety. She herself said that the Sepoys were threating her. 5) Two neighbouring states attacked Jhansi; and with the sepoys, were trying to place a new raja in place of the Rani. 6) At this point, the Rani of Jhansi is compelled to cast her own canon, and make her own army. She even made several attmepts to get help from the British. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.210.60.214 (talk) 17:03, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Rani of Jhansi

The article should be at Rani of Jhansi per WP:COMMONNAME. Comments? --RegentsPark (Maida Hill Tunnel) 01:09, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

"Rani of Jhansi" isn't her name though, it's her title. It pretty much literally translates to Queen of Jhansi. That's the reason why often enough authors make a point of placing the article "the" before "Rani of Jhansi". 68.49.138.170 (talk) 21:40, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Also presumably there have been other Ranis of Jhansi. Just those other Ranis people have to say, "Oh not that 'Rani of Jhansi'; this is a different one." Nonetheless it is correct to distinguish her by name. 68.49.138.170 (talk) 04:21, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree RegentsPark, per WP:COMMONNAME. Also, "Lakshmibhai" is not WP:RECOGNIZABLE, because it is rarely used for her. Khestwol (talk) 13:48, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

REBELLION OR WAR OF INDEPENDENCE

The whole world including UK believes that British Occupation of India was unjust and wrong I wonder why the 1857 war is referred to as rebellion. Seven Independent countries proudly claim it to be a War of Independence two of which are Nuclear Powers, these countries are respected and recognised in the world, what right does any body have to refer to their freedom struggle as Rebellion.

You clearly have no understanding of "Neutral Point of View". We don't use words like "unjust" or "wrong" on wikipedia. It's an encyclopedia, not a soapbox. This entire article has a POV bias as it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.232.253.222 (talk) 06:48, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Because it was a rebellion. Only a small part of India was involved, and most of the Indian states sided with the British. The idea that it was a war of independence is a retrospective nationalist fantasy. It would be more impressive if Indians could begin to look at the event objectively, as Britons now do. Greg Grahame (talk) 16:00, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Have you all gone mad? What the hell is neutrality? If you call a war just a small game. Millions died both sides and it's a revolution because this lead to growth of Nationalism. Most Indian leaders like Subhash Chandra Bose were inspired by the event and took weapons... --Rawal of Jaisalmer (talk) 15:57, 4 April 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Leodescal (talk • contribs) 15:54, 4 April 2011 (UTC) There should be no doubt that it was the very first attempt by Indians to overthrow the British Company Raj. It should be positively called as "War of Indipendance" as 'Mutiny' or 'Rebel' refers to activities by people against their own government. And in no way Company government can be referred as own government by Indians. Only a small part of India was involved was due to lack of planning of participants, lack of proper ways of communication. And most of Indian states sided with British was due to political immaturity. They didn't take active part as their own state was safe at that time unlike Avadh, Jhasi and Pune. Had it been also at stake, they might not have sided Britishers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Santoshat (talk • contribs) 06:00, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Please do not attack other contributors, and don't make assumptions about the connotations of English words without checking carefully first. There is nothing wrong with the word 'rebellion' - it may sound pejorative to some ears, but in general it refers to any revolt (just or unjust) against the established authority (just or unjust). It is a fact of history that the British (the East India Company and, in practice by that stage already, the British government too to a great extent) ruled most of India. It is not the place of an encyclopaedia to state whether this was fair or not, and of course it wasn't - but the war was still a rebellion. Even those large swathes of the media very biased towards the Libyan rebels of 2011, for example, still call them 'rebels', without any negative connotation. Harsimaja (talk) 18:36, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

can anyone tell me....that whether Laxmi Bai fought with Orcha.....or not....? In the serial...which is shown....on Zee TV...it is showing a war with orcha....but i have never heard or read anywhere about that war...? I m in confusion...i want answer to my question....but this net is helpless...and wikipedia is also not telling about different wars fought by Lakshmi Bai...Pliease anyoe help me...! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.197.4.136 (talk) 07:10, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Jhansi was invaded by the troops of the nearby states of Orchha and Datia about the same time that rebel sepoys were attempting to depose the Rani. This is now set out in the article.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 10:45, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

I have no idea... 41.217.44.113 (talk) 21:20, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

There is every doubt that the Indian Mutiny was a war of independence! It involved very few players, most of whom were mutineers. The concept of a war of independence in the Indian context is flawed in any case. India was not a single country. It had had various rulers from outside over the centuries. Is every local rebellion against these rulers an "Indian war of independence"? The events in Jhansi were actually unrelated to the Indian Mutiny. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.197.15.138 (talk) 19:33, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Plus, the phrase 'First War of Indian Independence' implies that there was a second one, but there was no such subsequent 'war'. A neutral term would be 'Mutiny-Rebellion' as it was a munity that was the spark that ignited a broader rebellion. 194.143.178.6 (talk) 17:14, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Working on it...

There were toooo many historical mistakes. I'm working on this article. Hope to make is featured soon. I will edit it with word and organize it better. Just started the work... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Leodescal (talk • contribs) 15:52, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Dates of Birth and Death

I've found several sources saying that she died on the 17th of June, several saying she died on the 18th, and several saying no one is sure. The article as it stands contradicts itself more than once on this very issue. I'll put in a neutral version. Harsimaja (talk) 18:41, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Now there are contradictions in this article on her birth date, with reason - I'm told most historians think it was 1828, some think it was 1827, one prominent historian has put forward 1835 and I've also seen 1834. For some reason they all agree on the day of the year - just not the year. I don't think I'm the one to disentangle this, but certainly there should be a discussion of this confusion in the article. Harsimaja (talk) 18:41, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Date of Birth should be corrected

Almost all unanimously agree that she could not have been six and half years old during her marriage in 1842. Hence she could not have been born in 1835. Her approximate year of birth should be considered as 1827. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jsbhavsar (talk • contribs) 14:43, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Wish to contribute a photograph (clicked by me) of statue of Maharani Laxmibai [on horseback], located at Swarn Jayanti park, Ghaziabad, UP. Please help me to upload the file — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samit.mathur (talk • contribs) 12:57, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Please see guide to uploading images.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 16:35, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 9 September 2012

YEAR OF BIRTH WAS 1828 AND NOT 1835 59.180.149.55 (talk) 07:22, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Note: You're referring to the first sentence of the Childhood section. The first source does say 1835, but this is inconsistent with the text in the lede and the infobox, which say 1828, and I don't believe that source is reliable. (In fact, it looks as if there are several unreliable sources used as refs in this article.) The snippet from the second source implies 1830. The third source (actually just a footnote) suggests there's uncertainty. If no one can provide a good source giving a firm date, I suggest the article should note that the year is uncertain. Rivertorch (talk) 11:10, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Further:- Her marriage occurred in 1842: if 1835 was the real date she would be only six years old.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 09:39, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Though getting married at 6 years of age would not have been uncommon for that era and culture. Vikram Vincent 05:51, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

There would have been marriages at that age at that time but there is better evidence for the earlier date of birth.--Johnsoniensis (talk) 10:09, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Date of birth again

The Biography section now has "Lakshmi Bai was born probably on 11 November 1828": please provide a reliable source for this or it will be changed back to the previous consensus version.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 13:46, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Jhansi Fort

The place from where Rani Lakshmibai jumped on her horse, Badal

«The memorial board reminds one of the hair-raising feat of the Rani Lakshmibai in jumping on horseback from the fort.» This could be added with an approximate date and a reliable source.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 19:58, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Subdivision

1 Ранние годы (early years) 2 Замужество (marriage) 3 Аннексия (annexation) 4 Восстание (rebellion) 5 В литературе (in literature) 6 В кинематографе (in cinema).--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 09:33, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Jhalkaribai

«Hugh Rose and an Indian general betrayed Rani Lakshmibai.»

This needs looking into properly.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 15:35, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Pronunciation also in IPA

The pronunciation of the name is at present given only through an audio file. Could somebody add this also written in IPA please, so that people with hearing impairment or technical limitations etc. have access to the pronunciation? And could the Marathi text be accompanied by a romanization for those who are unfamiliar with Indian scripts but curious enough about the native form? --Miaow Miaow (talk) 13:49, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 9 May 2013

There is no mention of Damodar Rao in the Indian Government records or the history books. A Marathi book by veteran writer Y.N Kelkar called “Itihasachya Sahali” or “Voyages in History” published in 1959 provides a new light on this. In this book, I came across a fascinating article narrating the experiences of Damodar rao, Rani Lakshmibai’s adopted son based on his memoirs narrating his tragic childhood experiences. It gives a fascinating insight into the lives of 1857 rebels and travails that they went through. Some of the memories brought tears to my eyes. Unfortunately, my English translation of the same does not bring out the same emotions as in Marathi. But it does answers all the questions that you wanted to know as to what happened after to Rani of Jhansi’s unfortunate son. It is an extremely sad and poignant tale which I shall narrate in Damodar Rao’s own words. In his memoirs, Damodar Rao Newalkar, adopted son of Rani Laxmibai of Jhansi and heir to the Jhansi throne narrates –

“I was born on 15th November 1849 in Jhansi in a collateral branch of the ruling Newalkar dynasty. On my birth, the court astrologers looked at the stars and prophesised that I had a “Raj Yog” or destined to become a king. And how tragically true this prophesy turned out to be! After a young age of three, I was adopted by Maharaja Gangadhar Rao of Jhansi. An application was sent to the East India Company’s representative in Bundelkand to recognize my adoption, but my adoptive father died soon after before a confirmation could be received. After this, my adoptive mother, Rani Laxmibai of Jhansi sent a representation of Lord Dalhousie in Calcutta to recognize me as an heir to the throne but this appeal was rejected. The British East India Company declared that the kingdom of Jhansi would be annexed under the doctrine of lapse and that my mother, Rani Laxmibai would get an annual pension of Rs 5000. In addition Masaheb (Rani Laxmibai) would also inherit all the personal property of my father including the palaces and jewellery. Lord Dalhousie decided that I could inherit these personal assets of my late father but not the kingdom. In addition, there were 7 lakh rupees in the treasury in the name of my late father. When Masaheb requested for the same, she was informed that the British Govt would be hold this money in trust till I reached majority and then, it would be handed over to me.

In 1857, my fate changed for worse. My mother never forgave the British for the annexation of our kingdom and she raised a banner of revolt along with the entire the populace of Jhansi. Unfortunately, we lost Jhansi due to treachery and had to flee to Gwalior. In the battle in Gwalior, Masaheb became a martyr. My attendants would tell be that she carried me on her back on the battlefield. I was too young to remember this. After Masaheb’s death, I remained in Gwalior for the next 3 days. Of Masaheb’s confidants, only 60 had survived the battle. Nanekhan Risaldar, a Maratha named Ganpatrao , Raghunath singh and Ramchadrarao Deshmukh took me under their guardianship and with 22 horses and 60 camels, we broke away from the camp of Raosaheb, brother of Peshwa Nanasaheb of Bithur and decided to find our own way out. We fled along the inhospitable terrain, jungles and ravines and fled towards the direction of Chanderi in Bundelkhand. No village on the way was willing to take pity and help us due to the fear of reprisals by the British.

Since a refuge in any of the villages was virtually impossible, we took shelter in a dense forest by edge of the river. Due to lack of any camping equipment, we had to sleep under the open skies. During the scorching heart of the summer, we would have sleep inside the deep forest amidst the trees. Our skin would burn due to the heat. We had no food and hence had to survive on fruits and berries found in the forest. Fortunately, Mother Nature took pity on us and we never slept hungry in the forest. We were afraid of going to nearby villages for help as there were British soldiers roving everywhere hunting for the rebels. Only in extreme emergencies would our men venture out, with life in their hands and get required provisions from local villages. This went on till the end of summer.

As monsoon began, things went from bad to worse. All forest paths would be flooded making it impossible for us to move. Remembering those terrible days sends shiver down my spine. Fortunately god finally took pity on us. A local village headman informed us that as the British has set up a camp at Lalitpur, he could not help us directly but if we moved to a secret location in the forest as suggested by him, he would provide us with provisions over there. On advice of Naik Raghunath singh, we broke our camp and started living at different locations in small groups of 10 to avoid any suspicion. We reached an agreement with that local village headman that we would give him Rs.500 every month plus 9 horses and 4 camels and in return, he would supply us with required provisions and keep us informed about British movements. At this time, we were around 11 people.

As agreed, we went to live in a cave by a steep cliff. Below the cliff was the Vetravati river. There was a temple of Mahadev nearby too. River Vetravati ran with a great force and there was a large and lovely waterfall. Around us, there were several lakes and ponds. The sheer pristine beauty of the place made us forget some of our sorrows.

In this way, we spent as two whole years as wanderers and fugitives. During these years, I was unwell the whole time. In the month of Bhadrapad, my conditioned worsened. My retainers were worried if I would even survive the ordeal. They begged the village headman to send someone to treat me. Even the village headman was shocked to see my pitiable and delicate state. He soon got a local doctor or a “vaid” who happened to be his uncle to treat me in secrecy.

As I recovered from my illness, another problem arose. While fleeing Gwalior, we had around Rs. 60,000 with us which by now had been fully exhausted. Now, with no money to pay, the headman rudely asked us to leave and we had no choice but to comply. We gave the headman Rs.200 and asked for the return of our horses. That charlatan returned only 3 horses and informed us that others had died! We left as a group of 12 however, on our way further, we were joined by another batch of followers that had left earlier and soon became 24.

We soon reached the village of Shipri-Kolaras in the Gwalior state. The locals there recognized us as rebels and put us all under arrest. We were in local jail for 3 days. Then under and escort of 10 horsemen and 25 sepoys, we were sent to the Political Agent at Jhalrapatan. As our horses had been confiscated, we had to walk for days. My men could not bear to see my plight and carried me on their back by turns. Most of my mother’s men who had survived had taken asylum in Jhalrapatan. There was a Political agency nearby managed by a Poltical Agent named Mr. Flink. One of my mother’s risaldar named Nanhekhan was working at this political agency. He was a trusted aide of Mt Flink. He went to Mr Flink and said “ Late Ranisaheb of Jhansi had a son who is now just 9-10 year old. After she died in the battlefield, that little child had to live in the forest like an animal. His trusted followers have looked after him with care. What is the fault of this innocent child? What has he ever done against the British Raj? Please spare that child and entire Hindustan shall shower blessings on you”. Mr Flink was a kind man. He sent a message to the Political Agent at Indore, Col Sir Richard Shakespeare, to which Colonel replied “If Rani of Jhansi’s son surrenders willingly, I shall see that his affairs are settled”. Mr Flink asked Nanhekhan to take me to Indore. On the way we met Raja Prithvisinh of Jhalrapatan. He had great respect for masaheb and he treated me very well promised that he would put in a good word for me with the resident at Ajmer. We were kept in prison near Jhalrapatan for around 3 months. We had no money till then and so I was forced to sell the two bracelets or “todas” of 32 tolas each which belonged to late Masaheb. There were the last remaining memories of her with me. And now they were lost. On 5th May 1860, we reached Indore cantonment. There I met the politicial agent, Sir Richard Shakespeare. I was placed under guardianship of a Kashmiri official called Munshi Dharmanarayan. I was allowed to keep only 7 followers and all others had to leave. I was allotted an annual pension of Rs. 10,000, which I had no option but to take as I was only a child then.”

This is where the memoir ends. Not much is known of what happened to Damodar Rao in his later life. What is known is that the British Govt refused to hand over to him the 7 lakh rupees which it held in ”trust” for him and had refused to hand it over to Rani Lakshmibai. Damodar Rao lived the rest of his days in penury begging the British govt to restore to him some of his rights without avail. He married and settled down in Indore. In 1904, he had a son named Lakshman Rao. The sad and tragic life of Damodar Rao ended on 28th May 1906. He was 58 years old. His descendants still live in Indore. They use the name “Jhansiwale” after the land of their forebears. Damodar Rao, son of brave Rani Lakshmibai of Jhansi lives on as a small footnote in history of India and in popular imagination as a little boy tied to a fearless heroine’s back.

Vikasetrx (talk) 11:26, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Not done: please make your request in a "change X to Y" format. -Nathan Johnson (talk) 15:44, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Part of the memoir of prince Damodar Rao has been used as a source for a summary of his life from Junes 1858 to May 1860.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 04:32, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

External link

It is a pity this very useful resource "Lakshmibai, Rani of Jhansi; Allen Copsey" has been deleted from the article.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 19:50, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Peshwa of Bithoor

"Her mother died when she was four. Her father worked for a court Peshwa of Bithoor district who brought Manikarnika up like his own daughter". If someone can provide a reliable citation for this statement it would be useful, and it might be expressed a bit better.--Johnsoniensis (talk) 15:51, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Anniversary

"The anniversary celebration was marked by traditional Bundeli folk dances and folk songs at the central garden of the fort. Prior to this the culture minister and other dignitaries paid homage at the mazars of Rani Laxmi Bai's trusted lieutenants -- Ghulam Gaus Khan, Munni Bai and Khuda Baksh@Basharat Ali ." Please provide information about when and where this celebration happened, and a reference to a reliable source which gives an account of it.--Johnsoniensis (talk) 08:53, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

As well as a reference to a reliable source the date and place are needed; is it perhaps the Gwalior Fort?--Johnsoniensis (talk) 11:37, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Chronology

Please bear in mind that there are uncertainties both about Lakshmibai's date of birth and about the day of her death. The cited sources show that the traditional birth year of 1835 used on some monuments is far too late. Her day of death also could be the 17th or 18th of June 1858. All that can be done here is use the conclusions of historians who have considered the problem in depth.--Johnsoniensis (talk) 12:48, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Comparision

Mr. Author,

I would like to introduce this dimension of truth to you, which sadly has been overlooked while writing the article. I don't understand what is the point of giving the statement comparing Maharani LakshmiBai with a woman of lowly background. For your kind information, Let me tell you, people in India worship her as a Goddess, people revere her as a true hero. And the reason is justified, barely the world has seen the likes of fearless Woman warriors like Maharani LakshmiBai.

I would request you to kindly omit the part which includes the statement of Thomas Iowe. It does not relate to the context at hand but it naturally impacts the image of the Great Queen. It is hurtful to the sentiments of People. I humbly hope you can relate it to your erudition. For now I have removed it, kindly let it be, or remove it as you think of it fitting.

Thanks

A hopeful Indian

As I've already explained Wikipedia is not censored and while you may consider it "hurtful", the information given is a quote from a reliable source and there is no reason to remove it according to our policies and guidelines.  Philg88 ^♦talk 06:52, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

"Rani Laxmibai"

The usage and primary topic of Rani Laxmibai is under discussion, see talk:Rani Laxmibai (film) -- 70.51.46.39 (talk) 02:50, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

rani

rani Nikunj4798nikunj (talk) 08:54, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Rani of Jhansi/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Is this a real information??? ==Lack of balance== Work is needed to ensure less bias here; the Indian national heroine version is over emphasised.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 08:49, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Substituted at 18:34, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Tatya Tope or Tantia Tope?

In the section August 1857 – June 1858, which is the correct version of the name – "Tatya Tope", or "Tantia Tope"? yoyo (talk) 17:32, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

I see that we have an article on Tatya Tope, which identifies him as the same person who came to Rani Lakshmibai's defence, and also gives the alternative spelling "Tantia Tope". To improve clarity, I'll change all references to this person in the current article to the spelling "Tatya Tope" of his nickname, and also wikilink the first. yoyo (talk) 17:45, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Move page to Rani Lakshmi Bai

Rani of Jhansi is a British invented name and not that of the true rani which is Manikarnika or Lakshmi. I see many names are wrong here in Wikipedia like this, Sardar Vallabhai Patelji, Tatya Tope ji, Kunwarji. Ji is respect title, So its not needed but should be Sardar Vallabhai Patel, Tatya Tope, Veer Kunwar Singh.BeanTennyson (talk)

Requested move 16 September 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn, as all opposing per common name. (non-admin closure) BeanTennyson (talk) 11:29, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

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Rani of Jhansi → Rani Lakshmi Bai – Rani of Jhansi is English British invented name, I want to restore to original name. BeanTennyson (talk) 17:24, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose this structuring. Based on the intro of the article, if a move were to take place, it would be to Lakshmibai. The question becomes, which is the common name? —C.Fred (talk) 17:27, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
• Comment: the article was previously at Rani Lakshmibai but it was moved to the present name. If it were moved back to Rani Lakshmibai it would be more similar to the relevant articles in other languages.--Johnsoniensis (talk) 18:48, 16 September 2017 (UTC)--Here is part of the history: "(cur | prev) 16:26, 3 April 2015‎ Philg88 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (44 bytes) (+44)‎ . . (Philg88 moved page Rani Lakshmibai to Rani of Jhansi: Requested at WP:RM as uncontroversial (permalink))"--Johnsoniensis (talk) 18:52, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose "Rani of Jhansi" About 3,320 results since 2000 vs About 1,510 results "Rani Lakshmi Bai" since 2000. And 2008 ngram. and also ngram with just "Lakshmibai". In ictu oculi (talk) 19:39, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Deletion of Jadunath Sarkar by Adamgerber80 (talk · contribs)

Adamgerber80 (talk · contribs) is deleting Jadunath Sarkar, the world renowed historian, from the article. His book on Rani is also well known. Please discuss.

He is known for his work on the Mughal Dynasty. You have been plugging multiple of his books and other random books across multiple pages. What is your rational here? Adamgerber80 (talk) 01:02, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Disputed

An explanation is needed for the addition of a "disputed" tag.--Johnsoniensis (talk) 20:53, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Historical Writings about Rani

>>The Queen's Desire: This novel written by Hume Nisbet in 1893 focuses on the Rani's sexuality. However, she does not want to use her sexuality to manipulate the British, but she cannot resist a British officer and consequently falls in love with him.[51]<<

What is the basis for this novelist on such allegation? Was the writer born in Jhansi or in India, did research on Rani's affairs? It was given a link in the sentence [51], what is that link saying? is that proving anything? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ramarajubhaskar (talk • contribs) 16:22, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Battle of Kotah ki Serai

"On 17 June in Kotah-ki-Serai near the Phool Bagh of Gwalior, a squadron of the 8th (King's Royal Irish) Hussars, under Captain Heneage, fought the large Indian force commanded by Rani Lakshmibai and were defeated. But on the following day, the 8th Hussars charged into the Indian force, slaughtering 5,000 Indian soldiers, including any Indian "over the age of 16". This version may not be correct: 17 June is when the Rani was mortally wounded; whether she died on the same day or the next is unknow, But here there are engagements between the Hussars and the Rani's forces on two successive days. Where is the reliable source for this?--Johnsoniensis (talk) 19:07, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Please see 8th King's Royal Irish Hussars#Indian Rebellion of 1857.--Johnsoniensis (talk) 00:54, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Title should be "Lakshmibai" instead of "Rani of Jhansi"

"Rani of Jhansi" is her royal title. The article should have her name of "Lakshmibai" as the title. Rabbabodrool (talk) 04:40, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

Please see "Requested move 16 September 2017" above.--Johnsoniensis (talk) 09:35, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

Deleted image

The Rani of Jhansi smoking a hookah

The image was deleted today without explanation; however as it is quite unrealistic it is best not to put it back in the article.--Johnsoniensis (talk) 14:58, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

It has now been put back but it is a unrealistic European representation so is of doubtful value.--Johnsoniensis (talk) 20:06, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Tagging

"This article contains wording that promotes the subject in a subjective manner without imparting real information": please be more specific about the reason for adding this.--Johnsoniensis (talk) 20:03, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Revolt was in 1857

By historians by investigating 2409:4041:6E1E:141C:19F9:2DB:DBE6:546A (talk) 08:05, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Birth year revisited

I think we should reconsider why we are stating Lakshmibai was born in 1828 with such certainty. Most accounts of her early life are anecdotal and many sources report various years. Even the reliable sources linked in this article seem to disagree. Here's a few different takes:

• Meyer, Karl E. & Brysac, Shareen Blair (1999) Tournament of Shadows says: "Known to history as Lakshmi Bai, she was possibly only twelve in 1842 when she married the aging and infirm Rajah of Jhansi ..."
• Encyclopædia Britannica says c. November 19, 1835
• A 2019 article in the New York Times says that she is "widely believed to have been born in 1827 in Varanasi"
• In the 2020 article "India’s Rebel Queen: Rani Lakshmi Bai and the 1857 Uprising", Harleen Singh notes that "Most Indian sources give her date of birth as 1835, which would make her seven at the time of her marriage and twenty-two in 1857. However, various British records place her birth in 1827 and refer to the Rani as a woman in her thirties."

Johnsoniensis, I see that you placed warning notes in the article in 2014 saying "Please do not add birth year 1835 as historians no longer accept it as correct; see cited sources and discussion on Talk page". Which historians said that 1935 is incorrect? I'm not seeing consensus on this talk page for using 1828. Rivertorch suggested noting the year is uncertain while Harsimaja noted that sources have used 1827, 1828, 1834, and 1835. Courtesy pings for those involved in previous discussions: @Felix Folio Secundus: @Vincentvikram: gobonobo ^{+ c} 18:32, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

When expanding the article in 2014 1 chose 1828 on the basis of this source. I was not able to consult any scholarly biography of the Rani but it would be useful if you were able to do so. I used to be Felix Folio Secundus.--Johnsoniensis (talk) 18:46, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

@Johnsoniensis: Thank you for the link. I see that Allen Copsey, that site's author, also wrote above that while the birth date is unknown, there's evidence for 1828 but not really for 1835. And while his site probably doesn't qualify as a reliable source (he says right there he's not any sort of authority), I do think some of his reasons for preferring 1828 are compelling. I can look for more scholarly sources that weigh in on the issue. Would you be open to using {{circa}} for mentions of the birth year and expanding the "certain historians disagree" footnote with a few references? gobonobo ^{+ c} 19:56, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, These are likely to be good sources: (1) Jerosch, Rainer (2008). The Rani of Jhansi: Rebel Against Will, Delhi: Aakar Books; 1st edition, ISBN 978-8189833145 (2) Lebra-Chapman, Joyce (1986) The Rani of Jhansi. Honolulu: University of Hawaii Press (3) The Queen of Jhansi, by Mahasweta Devi (translated by Sagaree and Mandira Sengupta). I am not sure about using c. but adding reliably sourced information would be useful. Johnsoniensis (talk) 20:10, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, those look like good sources. This is from Lebra-Chapman's The Rani of Jhansi:

"Most Indian sources report Lakshmi's birthdate as 19 Nov. 1835, as does Yamuna Sheorey of Nagpur, who claims to be the granddaughter of the Rani's half-brother, Chintaman Rao Tambe. This date is used by Hardikar, Parasnis, and the Jhansi novelist Verma. Astrologers in Varanasi assert she was born on 13 Nov. 1835. Tahmankar and Sinha, on the other hand, suggest she may have been born in 1827. Most of this account of the childhood and marriage of the Rani depends on Indian written sources and on the Sohrab Modi film (in Hindi) on the Rani. Since accounts of the early events of her life are unsupported by any English documentation, the Rani's early life, as presented here, at times verges on legend. Mrs. Sheorey relates that Moropant, the Rani's father, had two children by a second wife he married in Jhansi after his daughter's marriage."

I haven't yet seen that film (Jhansi Ki Rani). I'll keep looking for sources. gobonobo ^{+ c} 20:54, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Here's the only mention I found in Rainer Jerosch's The Rani of Jhansi, Rebel Against Will:

"Incidentally, it should be mentioned that Sir Robert Hamilton's life history already had a point of tangency with that of the Rani at an early stage. He began his actual professional career rather unspectacularly at the court in Benares in 1827, where his father was also working in the service of the British Government. The Rani was born at the same place during this time. He was roughly 25 years older than the Rani."

That would support 1827. Sir Robert Hamilton, 6th Baronet was born on 7 April 1802.

Mahasweta Devi in Queen of Jhansi, p. 18 (translated) says:

"A daughter was born to Moropant Tambe and Bhagirathi Bai on 21 November, 1835 in the Assi Ghat house. The mother named her Manikarnika, or Manu for short."

I did a rough survey of the sources and we have:

1827: Rainer Jerosch, D.V. Tahmankar (ca.), New York Times ("widely believed"), Harleen Singh, Adrian Shubert (ca.)

1828: Heather Streets (Oxford Encyclopedia of the Modern World)

1835: Dattatray Balwant Parasnis, Mahasweta Devi, Siriniwas Balajee Hardikar, Yamuna Sheorey (relative), Encyclopedia Britannica, Chandar S. Sundaram (Berkshire Encyclopedia of World History), Surjit Mansingh (ca.; Historical Dictionary of India), the memorial in Gwalior

Lots of 1835s in there, but I favour Copsey's analysis, that "1827 or 1828" fits. Still, almost all of the sources using the earlier year are saying 1827 or "around 1827" and not 1828, so I think c. 1827 might better reflect the sourcing and better convey that the sourcing is less than consistent. gobonobo ^{+ c} 01:17, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Re: battle of Morar

It is described here: Central Indian campaign of 1858#The recapture of Gwalior Johnsoniensis (talk) 18:55, 4 October 2024 (UTC)