Talk:Pigasus (politics)

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Some time after the Convention, I met Pigasus while visiting the Hog Farm in New Rork state - friends of my wife were members of that commune. I remember petting a Presidential candidate. --Dumarest 20:07, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

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Was the bus still named "Further"? 72.47.13.75 (talk) 02:21, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Copyvio

A massive amount of narratove style text was added by an anon. It was a large paste and copy job. [1] -- Whpq 14:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Uh...what the fuck?

This whole article is stupid and a joke. It ought to be deleted. 173.88.88.117 (talk) 22:51, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

I was supprised too, but this really happened. The truth really is stranger than fiction, huh. I say it should stay up. 67.80.164.161 (talk) 22:30, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

There are way too many efforts to remove the history of our culture going on. The fact someone suggested deleting the article before is shocking and sad. The fact the photo is gone is distressing too. A replacement would be helpful.Emerman (talk) 05:19, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

What in the world is this?

I agree that it should probably be deleted, but I'm not too sure. Pigasus was a real pig, although this article is written stylistically and factually incorrectly. I do however believe that this article fails to meet the notability criteria in Wikipedia, and I'd like this to be merged with some article regarding Yuppies. Yumehoshijima (talk) 04:24, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Added a disputed and NPOV tag to the top of the page. Again, it seems that Pigasus was a real pig. I don't have the knowledge to judge whether he was actually notable or not. Yumehoshijima (talk) 04:34, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

What to do when the subject of an article may be real but most of the article is hoaxes and jokes? 88.114.124.228 (talk) 04:43, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Just have people treat it as a precious piece of history that we are losing knowledge of if we do not tend our garden properly and remove any vandalism. Emerman (talk) 12:39, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

A documented and significant event

The nomination of Pigasus in 1968 is a documented fact. This article has existed for six years without having its notability questioned. Now after six peaceful years, I added more citations, sources, and court transcript information.

Pigasus certainly looks notable here [2].

Re NPOV and sourcing - the article now has more third party verification, more citations and sources, not less. If you have additional citations, sources and information about Pigasus, please include them.

This article is about a staged political event, but the article itself is not a hoax. It reports an event that occurred, and was covered in the media [3].

Wikipedia has hundreds of articles about "hoaxes" that occurred, and had a social impact. Consider [4], [5], [6] and [7]. Nelsondenis248 (talk) 08:08, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

You have added obvious hoaxery such as "his [the pig's] charismatic speeches", a "landmark first amendment case" and the pig's religion being muslim. I'm tagging the article as a hoax, as large portions of it is just that. 88.114.124.228 (talk) 18:25, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps you could assist with the language a bit. That would be a welcome addition. One important note - I don't see any mention of Pigasus being a Muslim or any other particular religion. The available records and sources don't make any mention of Pigasus's religion, so I agree that (if someone inserted it here) it should be stricken. Please feel free to improve the article.Nelsondenis248 (talk) 21:06, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

As there are no reliable sources for the article (the only non-blog/non-humor reference is a brief lighter-side-of-things item), the notability of the subject is questionable. As to the pig's claimed religion, which you added here, it was removed by an anon editor a few hours before your commented that religion is not mentioned. Due to lack of evidence of notability, lack of sources, and the article being mostly your hoaxery I see deletion as the most obvious way to improve the article. 88.114.124.228 (talk) 09:06, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

As I indicated, you are welcome to contribute to/improve the article. We do have sources here - the New York Daily News is the highest-circulation newspaper in New York City. That does establish Wiki notability, I believe. I will edit further to address your other concerns. Again, please consider contributing to the article, to help improve it. Nelsondenis248 (talk) 17:09, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

I edited specific portions and specific language in the page. Please indicate any problem areas for you. Thank you, Nelsondenis248 (talk) 17:24, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Do you have any other sources than a single lighter-side-of-things picture caption? Works of fiction ("The Illuminatus Trilogy" as a source, really? really?), a joke web site, and a blog are not terribly convincing, as is not your systematic long running hoaxery-jokery. 88.114.124.228 (talk) 18:41, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

I contributed to this page a little over one week ago, so there is no "long-running hoaxery." I also extended, and continue to extend, an invitation to improve the article. Hopefully other editors will help with further sourcing. The New York Daily News is a good start. Nelsondenis248 (talk) 18:55, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Where did you get the idea that the pig was Muslim and made charismatic speeches? The image caption you keep referring to as your source mentions neither of those things. 88.114.124.228 (talk) 19:08, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

There are scads of reliable sources with coverage ranging from passing references to significant coverage (books with a couple of pages about the Pegasus candidacy. The coverage has continued from 1968 through this year. The Yippies nominating Pigasus is considered to have been a clever bit of political theater, and gained considerable attention. Since there are lots of reliable sources with significant coverage, we need to remove any statements that are sourced only by The Illuminatus! Trilogy, which is a series of satirical novels, and which are pretty much the polar opposite of a [[WP:RS|reliable source]. Then a non-hoaxalicious and encyclopedic article can be built. There may be older versions of the article which are not the hoax-fest it presently is. I identified some sources which could be used in my comments at the present AFD: Many of the sources are behind paywall, so someone with library access could delve into them to verify the depth of coverage. "Yippies pick pig for President" Boston Globe, Aug 24, 1968, 555 words (payment required) Chicago Trib, Sep 30 1968 ":Yippie Pig retires from race" 281 words, payment reqiured) , LA Times Aug 17 2000 (payment required) "He calls them a light-hearted attempt to bring back "Pigasus," the swine that Hoffman's yippie ... "OK, the pig isn't the original Pigasus," Greenwald concedes. ", Hartford Courant, Oct 1, 1968 (payment required) "Pigasus, the presidential candidate of the Youth International Party Yippies is ... Pigasus was taken to the anticruelty society, the Yippies were taken to jail. ", Christian Science Monitor, Aug 12, 1968 (payment)"They plan to nominate a pig--called Pigasus--for president. Pigasus will be shipped here from Denver for the occasion. ..." , Boston Globe, Aug 10, 1968 "The YIP will have closed convention Pigasus has the nomination locked up and Is already working on his acceptance speech Peck said 100000 YIPs would ..., LA Times, Apr 13, 1969 (payment) "The exodus ended the attraction of the farm which gained some fame as a hippie -yippie haven and was the home of Pigasus, the hog which yippies ran for ...",LA Times, Nov 17, 1987 (payment) "As a founder of the legendary '60s commune the Hog Farm, it was Romney who nominated his prize hog Pigasus as a candidate for President during the ..." (this was not George or Mitt Romney), The Economist, Jan 7, 1999 (42 words about Pigasus 1968 candidacy), [8], New York Daily News, Aug 20, 2008, "Pigasus was purchased by folk singer Phil Ochs. But when Rubin ... Unfortunately for Pigasus, he was never seen again; there is speculation a cop took him ... Page 9 of 25) I(In a 40th anniversary review of the 1968 Democratic Convention, a New York paper saw fit to devote 75 words to the pig.), [http://www.neurope.eu/article/political-dirty-dozen-worlds-weirdest-parties paragraph on Youth International Party, with 2 sentences on Pigasus, Daily Beast blog,Jan 14, 2012 with 199 words about Pigasus (page 12), Silicon Valley's Metro, Sep 13, 2001 (compares Pigasus favorably to Al Gore's 2000 candidacy, saying "at least Pigasus was alive.". Then let's look for Pigasus' 1968 candidacy at Google Books:[9], [10], [11], [12], [13],[14], [15], [16].[17]. There are many more results: that's just the first page, and on page 20 the results just keep coming. Edison (talk) 19:49, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

The Illuminatus! Trilogy

I removed this set of satirical sci-fi novels from 1975 as a source for factual statements about what happened in Chicago in 1968, but apparently Pigasus is mentioned in it. Perhaps that discussion of Pigasus in the novel or novels could be covered in an "Influence" section, along with other recent references to Pigasus, such as an early and effective example of political street theater. On the other had "In popular culture" sections are, for some reason, not currently popular in Wikipedia articles about historical figures. Edison (talk) 20:52, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

I found at Amazon 2 brief mentions in the trilogy.: page 111 of "The eye in the pyramid:" Simon (a character) declared .."that the nomination of the boar hog Pigasus for President of the United States by the Yippies had been the most 'transcendentally lucid' political act of the twentieth century;" On page 740 of "Leviathan" there is, in a list of "random dates" as given "by Illuminati reckoning," "Pigasus nominated for President of the U.S. 5968 A.M." That does not seem worth including in the article. One is a line in a speech described as being by a "crazy," and the other is called a "random date." Edison (talk) 21:20, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm removing the discussion of this work from the article, unless there is a consensus here to include it. Edison (talk) 22:31, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Pigasus articles in non-English Wikipedias

Some non-English Wikipedias also have articles on this pig/political theater event. I do not see how to add links to the article, but it would be helpful if someone would who knows how, or if someone could point to a page on how to add such a link. They include at least the Spanish Wikipedia, the French Wikipedia, and the Bahasa Indonesia Wikipedia. Edison (talk) 22:54, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

• I read the Spanish-language Wikipedia. It essentially translates the English-language version, as it existed until May 13, 2012. Nelsondenis248 (talk) 23:17, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Hog Farm

Several sources (as in the movie "The Hog Farm Movie" (1970) say the pig came from and wound up at the "Hog Farm" commune but I could not find a reliable source not behind paywall to check this out. Is it possible that the Hog Farm named their own pig "Pigasus," and it was a different one from the pig turned over to a farm in Grayslake, Illinois in September 1968? This would not unprecedented: the anti-forest fire symbol Smokey Bear was created in 1944, and the living "Smokey Bear" was selected in 1950, and when he died in 1976, was replaced by a second "Smokey Bear, " who died in 1990.. Similarly Shamu is the name given a series of orcas in a killer whale show. Edison (talk) 22:56, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

More Pigasus material

The New York Times obituary for Abbie Hoffman mentions the Pigasus nomination - but it's part of a longer statement by attorney William Kunstler, regarding Hoffman's dexterity at political theater. [18]

The New York Times obituary for Jerry Rubin also mentions it [19].

I also found this striking YouTube video, with two minutes of actual footage of the Pigasus nomination in 1968 [20]. Unfortunately, the footage begins at 10:30 (10 & 1/2 minutes into the video) and is preceeded by largely unrelated material. I'll see if I can find other footage. Nelsondenis248 (talk) 03:47, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Pigasus - photo to the left

User:NorthAmerica,

The trial transcript quotes look great.

I restored the Pigasus photo to the left, after adjusting a paragraph above it, in a manner that resolved the clumsy white space around the photo itself. I think you were trying to resolve that clumsy look of "leftover text," but the paragraph adjustment eliminated that. Then I moved the photo back to the left again, so that Pigasus is looking into the frame, and thus looks more involved.

What do you think? Nelsondenis248 (talk) 04:27, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

What in heck happened to the photo that used to be in this article? It sometimes feels like people are willfully trying to remove history. Without a photo we can't visualize it, so of course someone removed it. I'm getting fed up. Do you know what the source was for the photo so I could look at it again once? I think it had Allen Ginsberg or else A. Hoffman in it. Emerman (talk) 05:23, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you

Many thanks to the editors who helped to improve this article, particularly User:Edison and User:Northamerica1000.

The article is much improved, and the deletion decision was to Keep it. Nelsondenis248 (talk) 20:40, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Well deserved to keep the topic, just needs to be tended properly. Emerman (talk) 12:42, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

"bringing a pig to Chicago"

"Pigasus and the Yippies were charged with disorderly conduct, disturbing the peace, and bringing a pig to Chicago" - what's the legal background for bringing a pig to the city? --StYxXx (talk) 21:14, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Pigasus (J. Pig)

I've already given two cites to support the full name. One in the article - https://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Pigasus_(politics)&oldid=964618287#cite_note-2 - and on in my edit summary - https://voices.revealdigital.org/?a=d&d=BFBJFGD19690103.1.3&e=-------en-20--1--txt-txIN---------------1. Both are contemporaneous reports. You can find more here: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22pigasus+j.+pig%22&oq=%22pigasus+j.+pig%22&aqs=chrome..69i57j35i39j69i60l2.5677j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8. Will you please un-revert? Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 15:51, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Hello Butwhatdoiknow. At most this should be an alternate 'also known as' name, which I'll add, because the extant sources use 'Pigasus' without a middle or last name. Your first source, which apparently is the source of many of the other cites which come up when googled, quotes "on of the speakers..." ("on" means "one" I'd guess, if the source has incorrect spelling then it seems as good or bad as a modern-day blog) as the only, and uncredited, person using that name, so it could just have been an off the cuff remark by someone not associated with the event (seems the participants of the actual release, trial, etc., use just the singular name). I couldn't find the name in your second source but didn't look closely, could you quote that one, and check if it's not a cite back to this unnamed individual? Thanks. This pig is commonly known under the name 'Pigasus', according to almost all sources, so an alternate name seems best in this case. Randy Kryn (talk) 16:49, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

"also known as" is fine - and much better than a reversion. Regarding https://voices.revealdigital.org/?a=d&d=BFBJFGD19690103.1.3&e=-------en-20--1--txt-txIN---------------1, scroll down to the article titled Pigasus J. Due At DC Inaugural: "'There are rumors that the CIA plans to assassinate Pigasus J. Pig during the inauguration in Washington,” Jerry Rubin told BARB by wire this week." Also, for what it's worth (not much), I attended the in-hog-uration and remember the full name being used often. This would have been well after the October rally mentioned in The Hatchet article. Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 19:15, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Another name, well sourced when googled and used on Wikipedia's Yippie article, is 'Pigasus the Immortal', which I've also just added as an alternate name. Randy Kryn (talk) 17:43, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Since you seem a stickler for citations, I wonder whether "well sourced when googled" ('see Wikipedia:Verifiability#cite_note-10) or "used on Wikipedia" (see WP:CIRC) meets your standards. I also wonder at you adding that alternate name to the Pigasus article without including a reference. Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 19:15, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Leads aren't usually referenced, but there were a lot of them on google. (edit: have added two). I was just questioning the sources, but Jerry Rubin mentioning it puts your edit over my personal bar. My main point was that the initial edit was changing the common name into a less common name. Tossing both of them up as alternates feels good, how does it feel for you? I like the rhythm with the Immortal name in the middle. Good (anti-)war story, would have loved to have been there. Randy Kryn (talk) 19:53, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

You reverted my first edit with a summary that said "fix" and nothing more. You reverted my second edit with a summary that said "please show more than one source for an addition such as this" (ignoring the fact that the summary for my second edit had a second source). Now you say "Leads aren't usually referenced" and you were "just questioning the source" at which you "didn't look too closely." Reversion is a powerful tool and I encourage you to use it with more care in the future. Better in this situation, perhaps, to have done the "also known as" in your first edit or, for sure, in your second. Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 00:10, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Because, as I mentioned, your first edit changed the common name, which is a pretty big change for this page. That's why I removed your edit and, when reverted, questioned your source which consisted of a misspelled sentence introducing an unidentified individual who, apparently having the use of the microphone, used the name "Pigasus J. Pig" and the reporter wrote it down. This was then picked up and repeated by other sources you later listed. Yes, I did look at the first source, which I just summarized above, and did find it lacking as the replacement of the common name. The second may be fine, but I couldn't find any mention of the name in the semi-short but adequate time I tried to figure out how to locate something on the site, and clicked off it. Hence, the talk page request, and what came out of our discussion are not one, but two alternate names which greatly improve the lead sentence. It seems like a fine result, no matter what roundabout way it took to get here. Randy Kryn (talk) 02:56, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Occupation

@The editorrrr, regarding your revert: in what way do you think "Occupation: Pig" makes any sense? ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 13:20, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Pigasus The Immortal.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:08, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

I am saddened to find someone has suddenly deleted the photo after I had only recently learned of this historical event. We cannot visualize it as well without a photo. I see nothing explaining why someone thought it fine to delete the photo. I have seen a lot of signs on the internet of some people willfully removing history, rewriting history, whitewashing fascist figures, smearing independent journalists, and now randomly deleting photos. I think there are photos that exist of Pigasus with some well known counterculture figures. We are deleting photos with barely any warning because people don't think anyone cares. I will try to find out why it was removed. There was very little notice. What's next? Deleting the page too? I saw that it was reported recently in the news that an entire archive of lies stated by G.W. Bush was quietly removed from the internet recently without explanation. Do we have to start making a backup of Wikipedia and everything else on the internet to keep people from removing our culture? Emerman (talk) 05:31, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Ok, looking at the "nomination page," there was "no free license evidenced at the source"? What was the source? We can't exactly ask for a license or inquire further if you delete even where it came from and don't discuss it for future information of something we have now lost. I realize I will sound too strident for complaining, but it is time people pushed back a little when people remove things so we don't have a trend where people don't think anyone is noticing. I imagine it was "proper" to remove this but I would like to know where that photo came from and look at it in the future wherever its source is, and when things like this are removed without a record of where we once could at least see it elsewhere, that is a shame. Emerman (talk) 05:36, 30 March 2023 (UTC)