Talk:Pecorino sardo

Pecorino Sardo and Fiore Sardo are both D.O.P. and are not legally the same

See italian wikipedia articles https://it.wiki.x.io/wiki/Pecorino_sardo & https://it.wiki.x.io/wiki/Fiore_sardo , also each cheese being tagged DOP have their own website www.pecorinosardo.it and www.fioresardo.it . These types of cheese cannot be less pungent and biting than pecorino romano from the continent as the sardinian cheese in quesiton can be found in extra strong, "stagionato" form, which is quite dry ,hard and brownish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.82.152.110 (talk) 14:10, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Pecorino Sardo and Sardo

• Oppose The two articles should and do refer to each other, but they are entirely distinct cheeses: one is made from sheep’s milk (hence ‘Pecorino’) and the other from cows’. —Ian Spackman (talk) 11:28, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Rennet

The article mentions the use of lamb/kid rennet, but does a specific type of Rennet have to be used in the making of this cheese? I believe calf rennet has to be used in Parmigiano-Reggiano, but can any type rennet be used in Pecorino Sardo? Best Regards. DynamoDegsy (talk) 09:30, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Capitalisation

@Dicklyon: as our resident MOS:CAPS expert, just checking if you're OK with the move from Pecorino sardo to Pecorino Sardo today, or does it require an RM? Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 17:29, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

@Amakuru I moved it after checking various Google Books that mentioned the requested version. In any case, if this move proves inappropriate, then we need to change the upper case in other varieties of cheese too (with the identical first name), like Pecorino Siciliano, Pecorino Romano, Pecorino di Carmasciano, Pecorino Toscano, Pecorino di Filiano, etc. Maliner (talk) 17:45, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

References:

• [1]
• [2]
• [3]
• [4]

Maliner (talk) 17:50, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

@Maliner: - sure, thanks - I just wanted to be sure that's all, capitalization questions are always a little controversial. The ngram shows that usage of the sentence case version has nosedived a little lately, but as recently as 2013 Pecorino Sardo and pecorino sardo were fairly close together in usage, so it might be that the MOS:CAPS bar of "consistently capitalized in a significant majority of sources" isn't met yet. This is one of those borderline cases you can call either way!  — Amakuru (talk) 18:44, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm OK with capped "Sardo" as a proper-named derived part of the official protected designation of origin. Even before that happened, it was pretty high proportion of caps. Dicklyon (talk) 16:34, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

@Maliner: @Amakuru: @Dicklyon: I am Italian and, no offence, I know more than you. Here is the official resource of the "Treccani" dictionary: https://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/maiuscole-negli-prontuario-etnici_%28Enciclopedia-dell%27Italiano%29/

Gli ➔ etnici sono i ➔ nomi e gli ➔ aggettivi che indicano l’appartenenza a una città, a un popolo, a uno stato o a un’area geografica in genere.

Gli aggettivi richiedono tutti, indistintamente, l’iniziale minuscola: un quartiere torinese, i fiumi cinesi, l’esercito assiro. I nomi che indicano un popolo, gli abitanti di un luogo o il nome di una lingua sono stati scritti per almeno due secoli (a partire dal Settecento) per lo più con iniziale ➔ maiuscola: vedi, ad es., il titolo del Discorso sopra lo stato presente dei costumi degl’Italiani di ➔ Giacomo Leopardi. Nell’italiano contemporaneo, però, questo uso ha ceduto il posto all’altro, per il quale tutti quei nomi hanno l’iniziale minuscola: gli islandesi sono all’avanguardia nello sfruttamento delle energie rinnovabili; il catalano è una lingua romanza. L’uso della maiuscola è però tornato a crescere nei primi anni del XXI secolo per influsso dell’inglese.

L’iniziale maiuscola resiste invece saldamente (ma non obbligatoriamente) nei nomi di popoli antichi, soprattutto quando si avverte l’esigenza di distinguerli dai popoli moderni: gli Egiziani adottavano la scrittura geroglifica / gli egiziani hanno aperto il canale di Suez nel 1869.

Traduction: Ethnic ➔ are the ➔ nouns and ➔ adjectives indicating membership of a city, people, state or geographical area in general.

Adjectives all require the lower case initial indiscriminately: a district of Turin, Chinese rivers, the Assyrian army. Nouns indicating a people, the inhabitants of a place or the name of a language have been written for at least two centuries (since the 18th century) mostly with a capital initial ➔: see, for example, the title of the Discorso sopra lo stato presente dei costumi degl'Italiani by ➔ Giacomo Leopardi. In contemporary Italian, however, this usage has given way to the other, whereby all those names have lower case initials: Icelanders are in the vanguard of renewable energy exploitation; Catalan is a Romance language. The use of the capital letter, however, grew again in the first years of the 21st century due to the influence of English.

On the other hand, the capital letter resists firmly (but not necessarily) in the names of ancient peoples, especially when there is a need to distinguish them from modern peoples: the Egyptians adopted hieroglyphic writing / the Egyptians opened the Suez Canal in 1869. JackkBrown (talk) 13:32, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

I want to note that this was the same user who had requested to move it to Sardo a day earlier. And they are again here for revert. Per talk they appear to game the system. Their talk is full of warnings. Last final warning was by Tamzin. Possible WP:Not here case. Maliner (talk) 14:03, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

@Maliner: I had requested that move (requested) because I was mistaken and had not yet read the rules of our dictionary about it. You attacked me by making fun of me and now you try to put me (failing) in a bad light. That move request (from lowercase to uppercase) was a mistake; I realised later that I had made a mistake and that the lower case was correct. However, if you don't consider the source "Treccani" an authoritative source (it is the Italian dictionary for excellence), then there are some big problems; moreover, it is totally disrespectful to come here and dictate rules of Italian grammar; are you Italian? No, yet you claim to be right. I have sent you the source, now it is up to you to decide whether to behave correctly or not. JackkBrown (talk) 16:36, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

@JackkBrown I never attacked you but just repeated what other editors said on your talk earlier. Maliner (talk) 16:55, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

@Maliner: all right, peace made, let's think about this consensus, which is more important; we must decide whether to follow the most authoritative source in Italy ("Treccani") or not. https://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/maiuscole-negli-prontuario-etnici_%28Enciclopedia-dell%27Italiano%29/. JackkBrown (talk) 17:14, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

@JackkBrown. Let me explain something. On English Wikipedia, we have our own rules and regulations in the forms of WP: ESSAY and WP:POLICY. We literally don't care about what other sources say. In your case, being the page Mover of English Wikipedia, I am following MOS:CAPS which says Wikipedia relies on sources to determine what is conventionally capitalized; only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Wikipedia. And yes, Sardo is the most used term in reliable sources per NGram (endorsed by another page mover above). So I am just following the rules of this site just like any other page mover. Hope I am clear now. Maliner (talk) 17:45, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

@Maliner: and there is a reason why capitalisation is the most common result on NGram: because the English think that "sardo" means "Sardinia", which explains why the English (and the Americans) write "Sardo" (with a capital "S"); the Italians laugh at these grammatical errors, because for us all it is normal to have a lowercase. The English (and the Americans) also think (not all) that "americano" of "ragazzo americano" (example) is written with a capital "A"; according to Italian grammar, it's heresy to make such an error. You English are great, but please leave the Italian grammar to us and try not to be right about this, please. In addition, I would like to add that "sardo" (of "pecorino sardo") is the only Italian adjective, or one of the few, in capital letters with regard to food in the Wikipedia in English language; it would take more consistency; it makes no sense to keep the Italian adjective in capital letters only on this page. JackkBrown (talk) 17:50, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

@JackkBrown and we are bound to follow WP:RS. Maliner (talk) 17:52, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Has anyone pointed out a source that discusses the proper capitalization of sardo in English? If not, let's just stick with the "consistently capitalized" threshold in MOS:CAPS. Dicklyon (talk) 00:07, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

In light of the explanation that sardo does not mean from Sardinia, and in the light of the mixed capitalization in sources, I'm changing my opinion to support lowercase sardo. Dicklyon (talk) 00:07, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

@Maliner: as you can see, me and User:Dicklyon are in favour of lowercase, while you and User:Amakuru are in favour of capitalisation. Let's find an agreement. JackkBrown (talk) 19:05, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

@Dicklyon: to be precise, what I said was that "sardo" does not mean "Sardinia"; "sardo" means "inhabitant or native of Sardinia". What I have been saying for several days is that the English (and the Americans) use "American person", "English person", Italian person", etc. (with a capital letter), while we Italians use "persona americana", "persona inglese", and in this case "persona sarda" (always with a lowercase letter), and since "sardo" is an Italian word, this rule should be respected. JackkBrown (talk) 13:05, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

As an Italian editor, I agree the grammatically correct and most common capitalization is "sardo". I'm confused about why it was moved to "Sardo". --Cavarrone 13:51, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

But the issue is not what's grammatically correct in Italian, but what reliable English language sources use. Just as we have a page called "Rome" (not Roma) and we capitalise "Roman", English rules apply to English articles. My personal (off-wiki) preference would be to follow the Italian convention, but published English-language sources seem to prefer capitals. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 14:12, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

@Jean-de-Nivelle: if the Italian word "romano" becomes an English word ("Roman") it is absolutely correct to write "Roman" with a capital letter, but if the word remains in the Italian language it is gravely incorrect to write it with a capital letter, besides not making any sense. JackkBrown (talk) 14:15, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree, and that ties in with the question of italics. If we consider "pecorino romano" and "pecorino sardo" to be foreign phrases, they should use lower case letters and italics. If they've been adopted as English phrases, they probably shouldn't. That may explain why the article "Pecorino toscano" uses a lower-case "t", since the cheese is less familiar to English writers. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 14:27, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

@Maliner: as you can see, me, User:Dicklyon, User:Cavarrone and User:Jean-de-Nivelle are in favour of lowercase, while you and probably User:Amakuru are in favour of capitalisation. Lowercase is currently the majority. JackkBrown (talk) 14:43, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Hold your horses! I only said that my preference "off-wiki" would be to follow the Italian convention. I'm not sure what the right path to take here is, but it's probably to follow reliable English-language sources as usual, which suggests capitals. In any case, this is not a ballot. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 14:57, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

@Jean-de-Nivelle: okay, I understand. JackkBrown (talk) 15:14, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps it has nothing to do with it, but I would like to point out that the English-language Wikipedia is (surely) the only version of the encyclopaedia in which the Italian adjective "sardo" is indicated with a capital letter; for example, in the Italian, French and Spanish-language Wikipedias it is indicated with a lower case. If this and all the (infinitely more valid reasons, which have received various endorsements) I have given above do not succeed in getting the title of this page changed, I really do not know what to think. JackkBrown (talk) 21:23, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

You're right, it has nothing to do with it. In Italian, Spanish and French, adjectives derived from proper nouns are not usually capitalised. In English they are. Also, note that the Polish, German, and Russian pages all capitalise "Sardo" or the equivalent, so I'm puzzled by your figure of 99.9%. It's clear that you prefer the Italian version. I just don't think you're making a convincing case that the English language Wikipedia page should. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 21:34, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

@Jean-de-Nivelle: yes, my example of the various encyclopaedias is wrong, and I realise that, but the argument I was referring to is that if you want to write these two words ("pecorino sardo"), you have to respect the rule of Italian grammar according to which adjectives must be written with a lowercase initial, because in the Italian language, write the adjective "sardo" (etc.) with a capital letter is heresy. So, if you want to write a term in Italian language within "en.wiki", you have to write it correctly in Italian, or write it in English language; it is very simple, an elementary concept. JackkBrown (talk) 21:41, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

But again, this all comes down to the question of whether we view them as Italian terms or English terms, or some form of hybrid. We write "pizza" in English without italics, and use "pizzas", not pizze in the plural, but we pronounce the "zz" in the Italian fashion, more or less.

To change course a little, how do you see "Parmigiano Reggiano"? The Italian Wikipedia page uses capitals, and the Italian ngrams are quite mixed. The English ngrams are not though. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 22:37, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

@Jean-de-Nivelle: you have not understood. Exactly because "pecorino sardo" is not common within the English language that should respect Italian grammar rules (and italics). Pizza is (very very) common within the English language, so you are free to spell this term as you wish. Have you finally understood what I mean? (Advice: Please, do not consult "NGram"; on the (very sensitive) discussion page of this article, it has only created disorder and confusion.) JackkBrown (talk) 21:43, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

But in that case we can never hope for consistency. (P/p)ecorino (R/r)omano is well known in the Anglosphere, while (P/p)ecorino (S/s)ardo is not. Does that mean that we should capitalise the former but not the latter? I suggest that the only solution is to consult the ngrams and do as the English sources do. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 23:09, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

@Jean-de-Nivelle: however, I could put a question in the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Italy and all Italians (and not) would agree with me, does it still make sense to continue along your line? And anyway, even pecorino romano is not so well known to people of English nationality. JackkBrown (talk) 23:21, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

I think (P/p)ecorino (R/r)omano is pretty well known in England these days. Certainly much more so than (P/p)ecorino (S/s)ardo. As to your other point, I don't doubt that it's true. But at risk of repeating myself, this isn't it.wiki.x.io.

Let me make an analogy. I recently had a small disagreement with a Greek editor who insisted that the correct transliteration of a certain Greek city is "Messolonghi" because that's closer to the Greek pronunciation than the standard English spelling, "Missolonghi". However, the standard English spelling is "Missolonghi". It dominates in English-language sources, especially in historical contexts, so it's the spelling that's mainly used here at English wikipedia. He was undoubtedly correct, and if I went to that Greek city I would do my best to pronounce it as the locals do. But that's not the context that applies here. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 23:38, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

@Jean-de-Nivelle: regarding "NGram", I repost the reply I gave to User:Maliner: "and there is a reason why capitalisation is the most common result on NGram: because the English think that "sardo" means "Sardinia", which explains why the English (and the Americans) write "Sardo" (with a capital "S"); the Italians laugh at these grammatical errors, because for us all it is normal to have a lowercase. The English (and the Americans) also think (not all) that "americano" of "ragazzo americano" (example) is written with a capital "A"; according to Italian grammar, it's heresy to make such an error. You English are great, but please leave the Italian grammar to us and try not to be right about this, please. In addition, I would like to add that "sardo" (of "pecorino sardo") is the only Italian adjective, or one of the few, in capital letters with regard to food in the Wikipedia in English language; it would take more consistency; it makes no sense to keep the Italian adjective in capital letters only on this page." JackkBrown (talk) 23:27, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure that it's true that the English think what you think they think. I'm English, and I think sardo means Sardinian, which I capitalise because Sardinia is capitalised in English, and so are adjectives that are derived from proper nouns. My personal preference, as I said before, would be to follow the Italian convention, and in any personal writing I would do so. But here I think we must follow the published sources. That's all. Let the Italians howl if they must. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 23:44, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

@Jean-de-Nivelle: you have stated your idea (and, no offence, I am not interested in hearing more from you), I am very curious to know the opinion of the people who have not yet stated their idea. JackkBrown (talk) 23:56, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree, and I'm not offended. I'll shut my cakehole for now. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 23:59, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

PS Of the last 100 edits on this page, 88 are by you! Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 01:44, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

This and the other ones added into the discussion are Italian phrases, not English ones. They may appear in some English-language works about cheeses and products/commerce, but they are not widely-assimilated loan-phrases in English (like "cul-de-sac" from French is). Being Italian, they should be italicized (actually should be in {{lang|it}}, which takes care of the italicizing as well as the language markup), and should follow the case convention of Italian, which is not to capitalize adjectives derived from proper nouns. There's nothing unusual or special about this case; it is entirely routine.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  16:57, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish: }He asked also (elsewhere?) about antipasto, primo, secundo, and such Italian course names. I said I think antipasto is a good English loan word, but maybe the others should be italicized as Italian words not so much adopted into English. I'm not quite sure how to decide such things. Dicklyon (talk) 17:32, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

JackkBrown asked me a bunch of similar questions in user talk, and then later got short-term blocked, though I'm not certain exactly why. As for the nature of this dispute, we are in something of a bind, as I explained to JackkBrown already at my own talk page. Because terms like pecorino sardo are not assimilated into English at all, and simply happen to appear in some specialized English-language literature on cheeses and on PDO products, it should be in italics (really in {{lang|it}}) as non-English, and lower-cased following the conventions of Italian. However, people are going to argue strenously to capitalize it, following the majority of the usage in the specialized English source material, and there's little to be done for it. It's an obvious WP:specialized-style fallacy in which usage that doesn't match our style guide, or normal writing in English, just happens to agree among the specialized publications. It's a fact that journal articles and such about PDO products have a strong tendency to capitalize all of them, even though this is not done by most mainstream publications like newspapers and we say not to do it at MOS:SIGCAPS, and it's also a fact that cheese-specific and more general culinary material has a bad habit of over-capitalizing names of foodstuffs, especially when they are named (in any language) after places. It thus seems probable to me that most WP:RM discussions about these things are going to side (however inappropriately) with capitalilzation, and little can be done to turn this around, at least until a significant body of non-specialist material can be found not capitalizing the same terms. It's not worth getting worked up over. They should probably still be given {{lang}} markup to help screen readers pronounce them properly.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  18:39, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

With all due respect to User:Maliner (I don't know him, but I think he is a good person), it's not possible that 90% of the people in this discussion are in favour of lowercase, but still the title of the page has not been changed; at this point I think the reason is because User:Maliner is a "mover" and has more rights than "normal" users. JackkBrown (talk) 14:12, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 19 November 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved (closed by non-admin page mover) BegbertBiggs (talk) 14:51, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

---

Pecorino Sardo → Pecorino sardo – According to the most authoritative source in Italy, Treccani (https://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/maiuscole-negli-prontuario-etnici_%28Enciclopedia-dell%27Italiano%29/), "Gli aggettivi richiedono tutti, indistintamente, l'iniziale minuscola" (English: "Adjectives require all, without distinction, the lowercase initial"), and "sardo", being an adjective of nationality (it means "from Sardinia"), must be written with a lowercase initial. Quoting what User:SMcCandlish said about pecorino sardo, "... Being Italian, they should be italicized (actually should be in {{lang|it}}, which takes care of the italicizing as well as the language markup), and should follow the case convention of Italian, which is not to capitalize adjectives derived from proper nouns. There's nothing unusual or special about this case; it is entirely routine.", "... Because terms like pecorino sardo are not assimilated into English at all, and simply happen to appear in some specialized English-language literature on cheeses and on PDO products, it should be in italics (really in {{lang|it}}) as non-English, and lower-cased following the conventions of Italian. However, people are going to argue strenously to capitalize it, following the majority of the usage in the specialized English source material, and there's little to be done for it. ...", "sardo" must be written with a lowercase initial. JackkBrown (talk) 23:39, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support since I'm quoted about this. The phrase pecorino sardo is Italian, not English (not even Italian fully assimilated into English), so it should be rendered pecorino sardo following Italian orthography. There are various sources in English that capitalize this, but they do it to every PDO product category term, and Wikipedia does not.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:06, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support lowercase and italicize per SMcCandlish. And if fiore sardo is a separate item, fix that, too. Dicklyon (talk) 04:03, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.