Talk:Operation Mincemeat

Topic in miniseries about Ian Fleming

On February 4th, 2023, User @SchroCat removed the following sentence as being unsourced:

The third episode of 2014 British miniseries Fleming: The Man Who Would Be Bond is in its second half also about this Operation.

Indeed, it is not easy to find a source, but I found one, so you can add it back the preferred way (tbh, I am not sure weather it should be added as a reference or as a source):

• https://tv.apple.com/us/episode/episode-3/umc.cmc.40f8gkgaxjunq00r13tgj70l1

Also, I have seen the episode myself, of course, and so can you. 2A02:3100:10BA:F000:99F8:653B:653E:5684 (talk) 22:42, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

• It's not a question of you having seen it - we have to connect it to a reliable source. This is true of all articles, but particularly featured articles This has now been done. It's also been added to the relevant position in the article, and not in the lead, where it was entirely out of place. - SchroCat (talk) 10:21, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

Identity of the author of the "Pam" love letters

Ben Macintyre has just published an article in The Times, Saturday September 9, 2023, page 27 in which he now provides evidence that the Pam letters were written by Hester May Murray Leggatt [sic], born 1905, died 1995. This is important new information, if true, but to incorporate it in the article will require careful re-writing, which I leave to those who are interested. Mike Turnbull (talk) 11:38, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Edit warring against consensus

Please see this consensus on the appropriateness of the term, which has a specific meaning in English. - SchroCat (talk) 13:27, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing this context. I do think the issue needs to be reopened. Glyndwr Michael will be in discussion again given that the Imperial War Museum currently has an exhibition that features this Operation and with the musical currently showing in London until early/mid 2024. "Tramp" is prejorative in British English. Ben Mcintryre's authoritative book on the Operation describes Michael as "homeless, destitute, and most likely mentally ill". --Andi Fugard [they/them] (talk) 13:40, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

No, it’s not pejorative. It’s a word with a specific meaning. Additionally, the weight of reliable sources use ‘tramp’, so we go with 1. Sources, 2. Meaning, 3. Standing consensus. - SchroCat (talk) 14:03, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

What "reliable sources" are you referring to? Here's a second, to join Mcintyre, also cited in the article:

"Glyndwr Michael, a 34-year-old Welsh labourer of no fixed abode" (Denis Smyth, Deathly deception, 2010, p. 37). The word "tramp" doesn't feature anywhere in the book.

There are 97 Google hits for ("Glyndwr Michael" "tramp") versus 3,830 for ("Glyndwr Michael" ("homeless man" OR "homeless person")). Although that search will pick up non-authorative sources, it indicates the magnitude of the problem. And one would expect pejorative terms to be overrepresented in non-authoritative sources.

Even the Daily Mail, hardly famed for its used of PC language, used "homeless man" in 2021. Fox News too, 2022.

So please share your reliable sources and evidence how the weight leans towards this word. Andi Fugard [they/them] (talk) 19:52, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Google searches, Fox and the Mail are not reliable, nor do they base anything they do on good English.

The sources used are shown at the bottom of the article. The additional source discussed in the previous consensus was the OED, which you may like to read to understand the actual definition of the word "tramp", which has a precise meaning. The current consensus still stands, regardless of what the Daily Mail may think (and wow, they used it in 2021: hardly a great weight of evidence to overturn the consensuses of PR, FAC and on this page). - SchroCat (talk) 20:19, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

I purposefully sampled sources that were most likely to use "tramp". That they do not is informative.

The Wikipedia article does not present evidence that the sources use the word. A list of references that do not point to the page number of the word are all irrelevant to the discussion. So where exactly is the evidence that "the weight of reliable sources" use the word? I have only seen assertion.

The first paragraph in the article to use the word cites no sources. The second (and only other) paragraph to use word cites Smyth (ref 34). As I noted above, the word "tramp" does not appear anywhere in that reference. "Glyndwr Michael, a 34-year-old Welsh labourer of no fixed abode" (Denis Smyth, Deathly deception, 2010, p. 37). The paragraph also cites Latimer (ref 35): "a young man in his thirties who had died of pneumonia" - that reference doesn't even note he was homeless.

BBC is an authoritative source. There are 17 results there for "Glyndwr Michael" and only five of them include the word "tramp". Instead, they say, e.g., "a homeless person" (2022)

The Guardian is another authoritative source. There are 9 hits and only one uses "tramp". Alternatives include "homeless man" (2022). Andi Fugard [they/them] (talk) 21:20, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Your desire to overturn the OED, other reliable sources and the standing consensus is noted, but it still doesn’t overturn what is in the article, it’s precise meaning or the consensus on the talk page. - SchroCat (talk) 21:22, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

My desire is to see evidence for "the weight of reliable sources". There is no evidence of that weight that I can see. Let us begin there, since that is what readers of the article first encounter. Andi Fugard [they/them] (talk) 21:26, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Then you don’t see much, or haven’t looked far. The sources are clear. Aside from those used in the article, Countering Hitler's Spies: British Military Intelligence, 1940–1945 By Stephen Wynn · 2020; Spying for Hitler: The Welsh Double-CrossBy John Humphries · 2012; Laconia incident - A High-Risk Military Rescue Operation of WWII Under The Line of Fire By Edgar Wollstone 2021; Ian Fleming's Inspiration: The Truth Behind the Books By Edward Abel Smith · 2020. And that’s before we go to the BBC, Wales Online, Daily Telegraph, The Times and, because you seem to like showing it, The Daily Mail. Ben Macintyre also refers to him as such, but it seems you may have missed that. I think we’re done here. You’ve produced nothing that overturns the sources, current consensus or the OED. - SchroCat (talk) 21:36, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

I am not disputing that sources use the word. I already gave you a count of some that did, e.g., 5/17 hits on BBC. I am also not disputing that the word is in OED or its meaning. I'll give you Macintyre too; I'd missed that sentence on first search. My original claim still stands concerning the common interpretation of the word as an insult. But I shall have to do more research to work out how to make that case. Andi Fugard [they/them] (talk) 21:58, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Or just drop it and do something useful on one of the other 6.5 million articles, maybe? I’ll point out (again) that there is a long-standing consensus on this; you’ve been reverted by two editors when you tried to edit war your preference in, and maybe you should take on board that you’re in error on this, given the consensus, sources and OED. Just a thought you may wish to consider. - SchroCat (talk) 22:28, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Actually 'homeless' has far worse connotations than 'tramp' - particularly since Home Secretary Braverman tried to make being homeless illegal. A tramp is an itinerant worker. Being homeless is simply not having a home. Glyndwr actually worked. That is important. Maybe we should reference the USA term 'hobo' to help people who confuse English English with other dialects. OrewaTel (talk) 20:49, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Tramp

I think it's awful, and wrong, for Wikipedia to refer to Glyndwr as a tramp. He was a human being above all else. 216.180.26.224 (talk) 09:27, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Glyndwr Michael. 216.180.26.224 (talk) 09:29, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

And tramps are human beings too. "Tramp" has a specific meaning in English, and that is the sense it is used here. It also reflects the sources, which we are supposed to do. The question has been asked and answered previously (Talk:Operation_Mincemeat/Archive_1#Survey_on_using_the_word_"tramp", Talk:Operation_Mincemeat/Archive_1#Use_of_term_"tramp" and Talk:Operation_Mincemeat/Archive_1#"tramp"), if you would like further background.- SchroCat (talk) 09:50, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

A better term, used in Michael's own day, would probably have been "vagrant". Also tramp can colloquially connotate a sexually promiscuous person.Cloptonson (talk) 18:38, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Tramp is normal, neutral, British English. See the thread "Talk:Operation Mincemeat#Edit warring against consensus" immediately above and the previous discussions. DuncanHill (talk) 18:43, 13 July 2024 (UTC)