Talk:Oliver Kahn/GA2

GA Review

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Reviewer: Apterygial ^talk 02:17, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Per request, I'll be conducting this GA review. On first impression, the article clearly needs a copyedit, which I'll carry out before conducting the assessment proper. Owing to real life pressures, this review may be conducted slowly, but hopefully should be completed within the usual one week window. Apterygial ^talk 02:22, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

I started working on your concerns. Since I'm busy working on a FAC nomination I might work slowly during this nomination.--Gunt50 (talk) 16:17, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Lead

• Do you have a cite for his date of birth and middle name?

I sourced both of them, using his article on Encyclopædia Britannica. --Gunt50 (talk) 15:46, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

• I think the lead has two much focus on the awards he won and his status in the history of the game, and not enough on him as a player. For example, you could mention some of the pivotal games in his career, more detail on his transfer to Bayern Munich, and any significant controversies he may have been involved in.

I've been working on the lead. I didn't write most of it, so I made it more 'neutral' in comparison with the former version. I also broke the single paragraph into three. I'm not sure if that's ok now, so you should take a look now. --Gunt50 (talk) 21:23, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Seems alright now. Apterygial ^talk 03:35, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Karlsruher SC

• What league did Karlsruher SC play in when he made his debut?

I clarified it was in the Bundesliga's first division. --Gunt50 (talk) 15:46, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

• Was the rout of Valencia the second leg of a two-leg round? I'm assuming this was held at Wildparkstadion, although it isn't entirely clear.

I tried to clarify the confusion by adding that the so-called Miracle at Wildparkstasion took place in Karlsruhe and the first game was held at Valencia's Mestalla stadium.--Gunt50 (talk) 17:38, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Bayern Munich

• Why express the transfer fee in Euros here? Given the currency wasn't yet in use, it would be more appropriate to express the figure in the original D-marks, and offer Euros as an alternative (in brackets).

I did it already --Gunt50 (talk) 16:17, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

• "Bayern defeated Bordeaux in the 1996 UEFA Cup Final." What was Kahn's role in this game/championship? Any important stops/mistakes?

I can't find any relevant information about his performance during the tournament, except for the mention of his name as the starting goalkeeper. --Gunt50 (talk) 16:15, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

OK. Apterygial ^talk 03:35, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

• "... and was named German goalkeeper of the year for the second time in his career." When was the first? More detail here on his performance during the season would help the reader understand why he was awarded the honour.

He received the honor multiple times. It's barely mentioned on Bayern's site. I can't find information regarding that season, as it is the case with other tournaments like UEFA cup. --Gunt50 (talk) 16:15, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

OK. Apterygial ^talk 03:35, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

• "He immediately received his second yellow card of the game." And this meant a red card?

Yes, I replaced the expression on the article. --Gunt50 (talk) 16:17, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

• What do you mean by "integrated the squad"?

I meant was part. Since the verb was confusing, I replaced it. --Gunt50 (talk) 16:17, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

• "Bayern Munich won the next Bundesliga season with Kahn." (note my edit here). More detail on this season would be useful, especially given you've mentioned his game went into a decline just before.
• "As of 2009, he is the all time clean sheet leader in the history of the Bundesliga, with 197." Is this still the case?

Yes. I updated it on the article.

• You mention his nickname 'King Kahn' here without background. Given this is only mentioned below in Personal life, I think it might be better to leave the nickname out in this section.

I'm sorry I didn't notice this before. I didn't write that line. It's now replaced for 'him'. --Gunt50 (talk) 17:36, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

International career

• I'm interested in the rationale behind calling the European championship "Euro 96" instead of "1996 UEFA European Football Championship" (which is what it links to). If this is the standard on Wikipedia, it seems odd that the longer form is the name of the article.

I replaced Euro xx for xx UEFA European Football Championship within the article. --Gunt50 (talk) 17:44, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

• "Many in the media touted Kahn's remarkably fast reflexes." I'm not a big fan of saying "many" like this; it sounds imprecise. Could you use one such media source as an example of a wider view?

I can't find reliable sources for that line. I think we could reverse it since it's not that relevant for the article. Are you agree? --Gunt50 (talk) 21:42, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes. I can't see any real reason to keep it. Apterygial ^talk 03:35, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

I reversed the sentence. --Gunt50 (talk) 14:55, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

• "Despite criticism, Kahn remained as Germany's number one for the upcoming World Cup." It would be nice to have some of this criticism included here.

It's being a heavy duty to find written critics, as it is the case for Bundesliga/Champions League stats. I think it went hand on hand with the fact that he was getting older. --Gunt50 (talk) 23:19, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

I was bold and removed that line. If you run across any examples of the criticism add it back in. Apterygial ^talk 03:35, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

• Did Germany lose the 2002 World Cup final?

Yeah. I clarified on the article as 'Once the game was over with Brazil as the new champion, he stood alone and disappointed in his goal'. Hope this make it less confusing. --Gunt50 (talk) 21:47, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

• "... to stimulate the competence between both." What do you mean here? To make each play better (competence) or to stimulate competition?

It was to stimulate competition. The coach wanted to determine who was the better option for the starting position. Maybe I haven't used the right word. I replaced competence for competition. --Gunt50 (talk) 21:52, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

• "... and later saved Deco’s shot made from just inside the box." Clarify which box.

I clarified it was from the penalty area. --Gunt50 (talk) 22:02, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

• The last two sentences of the section need a cite (or cites).

Done --Gunt50 (talk) 16:15, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Personal life

• "... he had a Latvian grandmother and his father, the former midfielder for Karlsruher SC, was born in Latvia, in a city named Liepāja, where he is considered as a folk hero." Two points here: "the former midfielder for Karlsruher SC" can probably be struck, as Rolf has already been introduced, and doesn't need clarifying. Second, what do you mean by "folk hero"? In my mind, this either needs explaining, or if you think it's not relevant to do so for this article it should be struck.

Clarification reversed. I changed folk hero for popular figure. --Gunt50 (talk) 16:15, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

I changed it to "where he remains well-known" (if you're not happy with that, let me know). If you find any detail on this it would be good to explain it.

• This whole section is to be honest a little messy; it reads as a seemingly random collection of facts rather than an integrated summary. I appreciate this is often a problem for biographies when it comes to Personal life sections, but I think it could be improved. For example, you could expand on his work with charities. Where does he currently live? Is he working (such as commentating)?

I merged the pop. culture section into this one. I tried to expand it a little by explaining the goals of the organizations he supports. Do you think the section is complete enough now? --Gunt50 (talk) 23:19, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Popular culture

• "The song was later covered by the Düsseldorf punk band Die Toten Hosen." Cite needed.

I reversed it. There aren't reliable sources to prove it and seems rather redundant to the article. I merged the one-liner sentence into the rest of the paragraph.--Gunt50 (talk) 16:17, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

• "In 2009, he integrated the jury of a China Central Television television reality show". Again, I'm confused by what you mean by "integrated".

I changed for he was part, as i did in the previous appearances of the verb. --Gunt50 (talk) 22:02, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

• "The same year was inaugurated his wax figure in the Berlin filial of the Madame Tussaud museum." What do you mean by "filial" here ("Pertaining to or befitting a son or daughter", according to Wikitionary)?

I meant branch, so I changed the word for this one.--Gunt50 (talk) 16:17, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

• I think this section should be merged into Personal life, and perhaps be renamed. Some of the things mentioned here aren't really popular culture (his working with ZDF and CCTV, for example).

I agree on this one. I didn't do this before 'cause it was the structure before I get to work on the article. It's done now, so take a look to see if the paragraph distribution I mad within the section is appropriated. --Gunt50 (talk) 16:25, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Images

• File:Oliver Kahn 06-2004.jpg needs an English description.

I translated the one in German--Gunt50 (talk) 16:27, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

• File:Oliver Kahn.jpg is marked as CC 2.0, but its original Flickr page is marked copyright. Given the file was uploaded by a bot, there's a good chance there could be a problem here. You might what to see if you can clear it up on Commons.

Any progress on this one? It's not an important image so it wouldn't be terrible if it was simply removed. Apterygial ^talk 03:35, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Since I don't know much about images issues, I'm still waiting to do it. I'm gonna solve this soon.--Gunt50 (talk) 14:55, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

I removed it from the article and I got other image to illustrate better the article. I did also some style reforms. You should took a look at these modifs.--Gunt50 (talk) 20:24, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

References

• It concerns me the infobox isn't referenced. I don't think {{Infobox football biography}} offers a referencing parameter, but it's probably something the football wikiproject should be considering, as there is a lot of information there that is not mentioned elsewhere.

I checked other userboxes, like Xabi Alonso's, that don't contain a lot of references (the ones that do). Is that your concern on this one?

I mean put cites next to the parts of the infobox which aren't mentioned in the article proper (things like height, which Alonso's does). Apterygial ^talk 03:35, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

I sourced the height. Is that alright now? --Gunt50 (talk) 15:21, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

• Make sure all German references have the language=German parameter. Most do, but I found a couple of examples at quick glance ([1] and [2]; 4 and 9).

I took care of that. --Gunt50 (talk) 22:48, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

• They all need work and publisher information. Again, this is already the case for most, but a check wouldn't hurt (examples: [3] and [4]; 59 and 78).

You mean all refs?. I checked other soccer players' articles, like Xabi Alonso or Fernando Torres. In most of the refs publisher and work are not always clear and in several templates have only included only one of both. I think both are required for FA status, so I didn' put much effort on that, but I can work on that if necessary.--Gunt50 (talk) 22:48, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

• I haven't yet done spotchecks, nor checked reliability, which I'll do in the next couple of days after you've dealt with the other points.

General points

• The article left me wanting to know more about Kahn as a player. What kind of goalkeeper was he? Particularly good against penalties, one-on-ones, in the air? Distribution skills? Any weaknesses? Right- or left-footed/handed? As a leader (given he was captain of the German national team)?

I found a note concerning his attributes. I'm not sure where in tha article should I include it.--Gunt50 (talk) 23:19, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

What you could do is create a dedicated section (such as Reputation) where you could put this information, as well as the paragraphs in Personal life on his nicknames and popularity in Asia. Apterygial ^talk 03:35, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

I created the section and added the info. --Gunt50 (talk) 15:21, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Move the information on his nickname, wax figure and Die Prinzen song to the section (it's much better suited there than in Personal life). I gave the section a copyedit for prose and context (I think it's best to point out that Bayern Munich lists those attributes). I think I'd still like to see more on Kahn as a player, but this is fine as is. Apterygial ^talk 01:45, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Alright. I'm done with these tasks. --Gunt50 (talk) 02:42, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Here are my edits. You should review them, and revert as you see fit. Feel free to ask me about any of them, or any of my comments above, breaking up my comments. I've put the article on hold; ping me when you feel you've dealt with the existing points. If I don't hear much within seven days, the article may be failed. Apterygial ^talk 06:30, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Sourcing

• What makes the following websites reliable? (This Signpost dispatch is useful for answering these questions).

• World Soccer News
• England Football Online
• Fußball24
• National Football Teams.com

• There's still a link to this one. Apterygial ^talk 01:52, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

• Rec.Sport.Soccer Statistics Foundation

• And this one. Apterygial ^talk 01:52, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

I replaced the ones you listed here.--Gunt50 (talk) 18:03, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I hadn't spot those at first. I removed them. --Gunt50 (talk) 02:42, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

• The following links are dead:

• Arsenal boss has a striking dilemma
• USA vs. Germany
• The madness of Jens
• Training mit "King Kahn"

I removed all of them, except for the one from USA today. I still have to find a reliable source to replace it.--Gunt50 (talk) 18:03, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

I replaced the last one. The work is done. --Gunt50 (talk) 01:36, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

• The publisher of the China Daily is (officially) China Daily Information Co, not the CCP. Apterygial ^talk 05:19, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

I corrected it. --Gunt50 (talk) 15:21, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

The article now meets the GA criteria. Apterygial ^talk 09:30, 26 June 2011 (UTC)