Talk:Old soldiers never die

Propose removing list of jokes

Currently the page includes a list of “snowclones”, jokey modifications of the “old soldiers never die” saying. (For example, “ Old policemen never die, they just cop out.”)

I don’t think these are sufficiently notable for the entry; there are jokey versions of every figure of speech. I removed the jokes, but the page author (user:Staszek_Lem) reverted my change with the explanation that the jokes were “well-known”.

I don’t think this is enough reason to keep the section—what do other folks think? — Narsil (talk) 04:10, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Discussion

These "snowclones" come from a secondary source. Surely, the author didnt invent these jokes, she collected them. You can find them all over the internets. Consider it as a field work in folklore. Staszek Lem (talk) 23:25, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

The joke book is a source to establish that some people have made that joke, which I do not dispute. But it doesn't establish that those jokes are sufficiently important to be on this page. I mean, every figure of speech has jokes made about it. Should the Gettysburg Address page list random jokes that included a version of the phrase "fourscore and seven"? — Narsil (talk) 19:45, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Do we have a source which collected "random jokes that included a version of the phrase "fourscore and seven"? If yes, then jokes with this phrase are reasonably notable for inclusion in, say, Gettysburg Address in popular culture. Staszek Lem (talk) 21:26, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Third opinion

Response to third opinion request:

Narsil and Staszek Lem, thank you for listing this at third opinion. I understand the concerns by Narsil that this could be seen as some random trivia or "cruft". They are correct that the mere existence of such snowclones is not enough to justify inclusion. However, if a secondary work has analysed these jokes and pointed out that the particular phrase has given rise to many snowclones, it would justify inclusion. Unfortunately, I do not have access to the book added as a reference by Staszek Lem. However, I did find a link on NYTimes. Here is the original link but paywalled and a non paywalled version. To reproduce some of the relevant text “Old soldiers never die; they just fade away.” Gen. Douglas MacArthur took those words from an old Army ballad and made them famous 67 years ago this week in his farewell address to Congress. Little did that five-star American general know that he had just given rise to an army of so-called snowclones, a relatively new linguistic phenomenon that’s tougher to explain than it is to use. As this phrase is cited as an example of snowclones, I think it merits an inclusion in this article. Adding a few examples of the snowclones should be OK here to illustrate the phenomenon. I have gone ahead and cited the reference in the article. Please let me know if you have any concerns. On a lighter note, I was having a grumpy day and I must say this 3O helped to cheer me up!-- DreamLinker (talk) 08:05, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Additional clarification: if multiple secondary sources (preferably high quality ones like academic journals or books) have referred to this phrase as a source of humour and parody, then it justifies inclusion.--DreamLinker (talk) 12:22, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Okay, that makes sense. Thanks much for your help! — Narsil (talk) 16:08, 1 March 2020 (UTC)