Talk:Old City of Jerusalem

East Jerusalem as location

Tombah, changing the location from East Jerusalem to Jerusalem, claiming it is just many and not the overwhelming majority that consider it occupied, and then reverting to your edit when challenged is all tendentious. Kindly restore the location to the first paragraph. nableezy - 15:30, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

And maybe you should try double checking, because I removed the POV-push of "many consider" it in the last paragraph as well. nableezy - 15:31, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Actually, it is also a 1RR violation, you reverted this and then straight revert of this. Kindly self-revert. nableezy - 15:35, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

I'll fix "many" to "the". Buy anyway, this is *not* a violation of 1RR. Tombah (talk) 15:39, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Tricky ground here, old chap, reverting old material is one thing, reverting recent material is another and it's two different editors. Discretion might be the better part of valor. Selfstudier (talk) 15:48, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Ok, will let AE decide that if you insist. nableezy - 16:48, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 1 August 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 23:05, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

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Old City (Jerusalem) → Old City of Jerusalem – There exists a commonly used WP:NATURAL way of disambiguating this Old City from other Old Cities. "Old City of Jerusalem" is the name of the UNESCO Heritage site and is commonly found in reliable sources. Nableezy 23:20, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

• Support. A definite improvement that should be uncontroversial. Zero^talk 01:57, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
• Support It is indeed natural, I can't quite see how the 31 January 2015 RM above (and the one back in 2007) managed somehow not to see that and plumped for dab. In the unlikely event of a recurrence, I would prefer Old City (East Jerusalem). Selfstudier (talk) 20:34, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
• Support Yep, makes perfect sense, and yep, hard to believe this wasn't a slam dunk in previous RMs. Scholarly hits are aplenty. UNESCO's a clincher. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:55, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose and keep it as is, because it is known as "the Old City" הָעִיר הָעַתִּיקָה in Hebrew that happens to be located in Jerusalem and not as "the old city of Jerusalem"! Sometimes things get lost in translation. IZAK (talk) 21:19, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

  Some reason we should concern ourselves with Hebrew translations? Selfstudier (talk) 21:49, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

  This isnt the Hebrew Wikipedia. The common name in English is what counts here, our naming conventions on disambiguation are what count here. nableezy - 21:50, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Quarters

To editor Onceinawhile: The Old City is divided into four quarters: the Muslim Quarter, the Christian Quarter, the Armenian Quarter and the Jewish Quarter. Matthew Teller writes that this convention may have originated in the 1841 British Royal Engineers map of Jerusalem". This makes it sound like the division into quarters originated in the 19th century, but Teller is only saying that the present division originated then. The idea of dividing the Old City into quarters is much older. The paper of Arnon in the bibliography has a historical summary. Can this be clarified please? Zero^talk 02:22, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

If it's anything like the old city of Damascus, it probably formed by accretion, building gradually on whatever kernel of redevelopment occurred under the urban master planning Ayyubids. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:52, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Zero. I had forgotten but it seems I added the Arnon source to the bibliography two years ago[1] but without amending the article.

Having just re-read it, I don't think the sentence above is incorrect; the convention of dividing the city into four quarters did originate in the 19th century. Arnon's article shows that historically there were many more than four. Arnon's article contains a number of additional points which are very interesting - I will add some detail and make the sentence you point out clearer. Onceinawhile (talk) 06:26, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

@Zero0000 and Iskandar323: I just added the table from Arnon's pages 25-26, which is an excellent summary of the evolution of the quarters. His table is not entirely clear; would you mind having a quick look versus the table I have added here and let me know if you think it is correct? Onceinawhile (talk) 09:05, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Reflecting on this, I have always wondered how the Armenians managed to get such a large part of the city named after themselves. And why the Ayyubids, Mamluks and Ottomans chose to formally constrain the Muslim part of the city, carving out protected sections for Armenians, other Christians and Jews.

And now we know; the answer was that they did not. An embellishment of enthusiastic mapmakers in the 1840s, created a tradition which became real. A little like the famous Agloe, New York case. Onceinawhile (talk) 23:08, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Arnon's table of population by quarter in 1905

See below Arnon's table of population by quarter in 1905, from page 50, which "combines together the two quarter-systems and their populations"; it is valuable because it illustrates how the "quarters" were never homogeneous. I have tried to tie the explanations here to the text on p.50-51, but it isn't clear. And there are some numbers which I cannot make sense of (bolded below). Onceinawhile (talk) 09:17, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

		Total	Moslems	Jews	Christians (ex-Armenians)	Armenians
Total		4187	1849	1250	967	121
			44%	30%	23%	3%
Moslem Quarter	Bab Hutta	1762	1139	396	227
	Sa'diyya	42%	62%	32%	23%
	Wad		64.6	22.5	12.9
Christian Quarter	Bab el-'Amud	784	122	16	646
	Nasara	19%	7%	1%	67%
			15.6	2.0	82.4
Armenian Quarter	Sharaf	382	40	127	94	121
		9%	2%	10%	10%	100%
			10.5	33.2	24.6	31.7
Jewish Quarter	Silsila	1259	548	711
		30%	30%	57%
			43.5	56.5

Onceinawhile (talk) 09:17, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Jewish Quarter: nonsense & other misdemeanors

A lot of UNSOURCED material.

DUBIOUS tags unaddressed for up to 7 years, one next to text containing utter nonsense with no connection to refs (alleged Jewish presence throughout the ages: not just inaccurate, but all refs only address Iron Age!).

Please look at text for tags, unreferenced sections. Arminden (talk) 13:10, 16 November 2023 (UTC)