Talk:Nogais

Merge from Nogai Horde

The Nogai Horde article could basically be a section of this article dealing with the history of the Nogai people. Niether article is large, and persons interested in one are likely going to be interested in the other. Caerwine 19:13, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

nogai people and nogai horde

i do not agree with merging those different topic despite they are dealing with the same: the nogai. the nogai horde has only to do with history and what has happened to the nogai horde in the past, which has nothing to do with the nogai people now. of course, the nogai people are coming from the nogai horde, but in terms of talking about ethnic group it would be better to present the topics seperately. would you like to merge the topics "commonwealth" and "scottish people"? cheers

It appears someone else has decided to merge them anyway, despite your objection... I'm just trying to fix all the redirect issues this has caused now! Codex Sinaiticus 02:37, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

I moved Nogai Horde back. bogdan 20:20, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I really do think that these two articles should be merged, the article on the Nogai Horde should simply be part of the section on Nogai history.!

Yes, to me it does seem that the Nogai Horde thing is about the Nogai History? Is it not? It is proper to put the history in the history section!?--Erkin2008 17:27, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

hi

Hi I am a descendant of nogai too. I find it a little bit odd that the nogai people have a flag of a somewhat doglike creature. But its clear the nogai were sunni muslims. Then ask yourself this. Would a sunni muslim state take a flag that looks like a dog with wings? . I find it very questionable. Also I would like to add some other things to the article I heard from my grandmother etc. It is commenly known in my village the nogai were famous for their horse skills and often raided tartar villages. After a while they settled down and lived with tartars. Most of them moved into the Crim area and eventually alot of them migrated to Turkey. so does everyone agree with this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.53.211.52 (talk)

I'm not sure what Nogai means in Turkic, but it is the Mongolian word for dog. It is pronounced "nuh-huh."--Buzava (talk) 04:52, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

"related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:09, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Why the Nogai Population is very small?

The Nogais have been in Western Russia for hundreds of years.Why the Nogai population is very small compared to the ethnic Russian population which is over 100 millions? Even if you add the Nogai population in Turkey with the Nogai population in Russia, it is still small. Sonic99 02:51, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

The population of Nogais in Russia is perhaps higher as it seems, because on the Population Consensus in Russia many peoples proclaim for ethnic Russians while they arent. However, the number of Nogais in Russia is now increasing. Spring01 21:56, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Spring01, why would the Nogais want to lie on the Russian census and claim they are ethnic Russians? The Mongolians killed many slavic people in the 13th century. During Nazi German Invasion of Russia, there were many ethnic Russian casualities. How can the slavic Russian population still be much bigger than the Turkic population? Sonic99 02:03, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

a/ The Nogais are only one very small group among the Turkic peoples of Russia. There are 5 million Volga Tartars, 3(?) million Bashkirs, etc. So the Turkic total is 10,000,000+. But dont forget many Russian provinces in Europe have always been 99% Slavic with virtually no Turkic speakers. The Mongols never settled there. Jameswilson 01:42, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Because of ethnic discrimination, for example at finding jobs etc. Some sources state that today there are more than 5 millions of Nogais. Spring01 21:33, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Spring01, where are the sources that state that there are over 5 million Nogais? Any link? Sonic99 17:38, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I have more than enough links for that. Can it be in Russian language?? Spring01 02:22, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, thats no problem. Jameswilson 23:17, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Spring01, can you read Russian? I can't read Russian. Please try to find an English translated version if you can. Sonic99 02:09, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Of course I can read Russian language. I mean will it count as a prove if I give link in Russian language because I know that sometimes people say I wont accept that because it isnt in english. So will it count on english wikipedia?? Spring01 15:08, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Spring01, put your Russian language link in this Nogais article. Thanks. Sonic99 03:46, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Achikulak Nogai

It would be helpful if those with an understanding of this topic (ie, not me) could please see Achikulak Nogai. That article states The Achikulak Nogai are one of the three territorial divisions of the Nogai, but there is no mention of them on this page (or three territorial divisions). A cleanup/clarification/expansion may be in order to sufficiently cover the topic. Thank you, sassf (talk) 23:14, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I just deleted that, as it was an orphaned stub that should be covered here. The contents were:

The Achikulak Nogai are one of the three territorial divisions of the Nogai. They live primarily in Achikulak Rayon in Stavropol Krai. They speak a dialect of the Nogai language.

Sources:

• Wixman, Ronald. The Peoples of the USSR: An Ethnographic Handbook. (Armonk, New York: M. E. Sharpe, Inc, 1984) p. 4
• Olson, James S., An Ethnohistorical Dictionary of the Russian and Soviet Empires. (Westport: Greenwood Press, 1994) p. 13

(Actually, it linked to an "Achikulak Nogai dialect" orphaned stub which I also deleted.) kwami (talk) 08:43, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

History

A passing use of old anthopological terms in a book about religion is not a good source for referring to the Nogais as "Caucasoid" or "Mongoloid", especially when the book is talking about the modern Nogais, not the 16th century people. Ergative rlt (talk) 00:32, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

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A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Ногайский этнический флаг.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:28, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

Indigenous status?

Why are the Nogais listed as an indigenous people in Template:Ethnic groups of Russia but not the page itself? Are the Nogais an indigenous people? ~Cherri of Arctic Circle System (talk) 05:14, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

They're also listed as indigenous people in List of larger indigenous peoples of Russia, but that list also lists "ethnic Russians" as an indigenous people for some reason so I have no idea what's going on there. ~Cherri of Arctic Circle System (talk) 05:20, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

sources are wikipedia pages

the Russian empire knew the Nogais very well, and if anyone needs help translating the page let me know, it is very simple Soyembika (talk) 07:41, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Fiddling with sourced content

@Vofa and Turkiishh: I am amazed to see the level of confidence you display when changing back and forth the total population figures, even though the cited source (Golden's article in the Encyclopaedia of Islam is in plain sight. Do you have access to this source? I do. If you don't, don't change content that is based on this source. Read WP:V. Read it well. I advise to slow down (sounds familiar, right?) before you have properly understood what this pillar of Wikipedia editing entails. Thank you. Austronesier (talk) 20:27, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I don’t know what Goldeb means (the old dead link source?) but I added 50k of Kazakh-Nogais which are well known in the region to 120,000. I also added a possibility of 170k-270k due to sources claiming on average 100k Turk Nogais. Is this the only complain? He reverted all of my contributions claiming a broken source about Turkey,even though the source doesn’t have a website but has YouTube affiliates, he is just trying to deny that any Nogais live in Turkey (for no reason) I will not fiddle with the source but change his revert back and place (citation needed,is that okay?) Vofa (talk) 06:08, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

120k+50k is 170k. Vofa (talk) 06:13, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

He wants to delete any trace of Nogais in Turkey

He just edited out the Turkish population and region in the population box. That’s bad. When I first started editing the page, the number was 90,000 I never touched it,until recently when he deleted it and the Turkish population in population box. That’s how it all started. Vofa (talk) 06:16, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Im powerless here,since I’ll be blocked from editing if I try to bring it back.

That’s actually crazy. Even he acknowledges its 170k without Turkish population. What he deleted | region13 = {{flagcountry|Turkey}}

| pop13 = ?-100,000

| ref13 = <ref name="Association of Nogais in Turkey 2024"/>

now here’s what I wrote to accommodate it {{The number of Nogais living in Turkey today is disputed. Estimates claim there are 90,000-100,000 Nogais (Nogai Turks) in the country, but the claims are hard to verify.}} They mainly settled in Ceyhan/Adana, Ankara and Eskisehir provinces. The Nogai language is still spoken in some of the villages of Central Anatolia – mainly around Salt Lake, Eskişehir and Ceyhan. To this day, Nogais in Turkey have maintained their cuisine: Üken börek, kaşık börek, tabak börek, şır börek, köbeteand Nogay şay (Nogai tea – a drink prepared by boiling milk and tea together with butter, salt and pepper). ((I wrote the first part))

Vofa (talk) 06:23, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

And he never contested that. So why did he delete the Turkish region? Vofa (talk) 06:24, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Where did the source have 120k? It’s impossible to know,since the ,,source doesn’t have any info and can’t be accessed as it’s dead link,, populations change all the time Vofa (talk) 07:16, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

@Vofa: The citation for 120k from the Encyclopedia of Islam was in plain sight, albeit incomplete (what's a "dead link" in your definition?). You cannot just change numbers which have a source even (or especially) if that source is not available to you. Just to give you an idea what this manipulation of sourced content is like, imagine that you write on your user page "I think Wikipedia is a great site and I want to improve it", and the somebody else cites you: "According to Vofa, Wikipedia is a great site to contribute to with improvements", that's a faithful citation, right? But then, another one shows up who doesn't like Wikipedia and hijacks the preceding text by changing it to: "According to Vofa, Wikipedia sucks and is not worth wasting even a second of one's time", that's obviously a forged citation, isn't it? So when you change "120.000k <ref>Peter Golden. "Nogai people". Encyclopaedia of Islam. Vol. 3.</ref>" to "170.000k <ref>Peter Golden. "Nogai people". Encyclopaedia of Islam. Vol. 3.</ref>", that's exactly the same thing. Golden (our source) never wrote that. –Austronesier (talk) 18:04, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Then removing the source and replacing it with several new ones would be neat. Right??? It’s about the population number, it constantly changes. I found out about Kazakh-Nogais (a prominent group of people in Kazakhstan) I provided a source. Their population number is 50k. Currently, Nogai leaders try to include Siberian Tatars in the Nogai nation. Good analogy. Vofa (talk) 07:10, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Where does the article by Yarygin & Kalikov mention the figure of 50k Nogais in modern Kazakhstan? It's not there. The authors in fact say on p. 188 that the Nogais were assimilated into the Kazakh people. The only refer to the Nogai descendants in the North Caucausus (without explicitly mentioning the diaspora in Eastern Europe and Turkey) as modern Nogais since have retained a distinct identity: На Северном Кавказе группам ногайцев удалось сохранить отдельное самосознание и сформировать современных ногайцев, те группы, которые оказались в составе Казахского ханства, а потом Букеевской Орды, были ассимилированы в казахском народе, составив значительную часть младшего жуза. (Emphasis added.)

I will mark the Kazakhstan entry in the infobox with a "failed verification"-tag; I'll give you some time to explain if I have missed something in the source before I remove the complete entry in the following days.

Finally, you are basically right: you can replace a source which appears to reflect an outdated number with another more recent source, but only if (!) it is at at least as reliable as the exisiting source (note the Encyclopaedia of Islam is published by Brill, a highly prestigeous academic publishing house) and if (!!) it actually supports the claim. Nothing is bad about not having the most recent population figures; verifiablity and reliablity come before the (admittedly quite natural) urge to be most update all the time. –Austronesier (talk) 18:19, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

The map in the page clearly shows these regions in red,in Turkey where Nogais live

The title Vofa (talk) 06:26, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Association of Nogais in Turkey

It doesn’t have a site,but it’s in Turkey and has social media channels/pages where they claim the number of Nogais is 100k-5m (5m is an absurd and obviously made up term) all map of Nogais include regions where they’re most present in,so please don’t erase it. I put (?-100k) to leave room for mistakes. Stop reverting it,thank you. Vofa (talk) 07:25, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

The video is in Turkish,so for a certain Turkish nationalist there,he can listen to it. Ногайцы в Турции enter that in Google search and watch some videos from secure networks. Vofa (talk) 07:27, 5 April 2024 (UTC)