Talk:Neocatechumenal Way

New Lead Paragraph

I have been working on cleaning up the article. I would like to improve its quality in order to remove the tags at the top of the page. I would like to go through the article section by section and propose to the community what I hope are improvements to tone clarity, and access to additional sources. Please take a look at the proposed lead paragraph in my a sandbox. I hope users are familiar with wikipedia policies on WP:TONE, WP:PST, WP:NPOVHOW, etc..., and we can together improve this article.

Overall my goal for these groups of edits are to put in more common language the definitions and descriptions of the Neocatechumenal way to improve accessibility. Ncwfl (talk) 22:11, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

I went ahead an implemented the changes. Ill keep working on the rest of the page by section in the above sandbox. Ncwfl (talk) 19:11, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm unsure how to help update this article, however under leadership and governance there is a mention of the 1st Scrutiny and it references the statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way specifically ART2 19 1 & 2 which state " § 1. The first phase of the Neocatechumenate is the precatechumenate, which is a time of kenosis75 in order to learn to walk in humility.76 It is divided into two steps:

1st. In the first step, which goes from the initial catecheses until the first scrutiny, and which lasts approximately two years, the neocatechumens learn the language of the Bible by celebrating each week the Word of God, with simple themes that run throughout the whole of Scripture, such as water, rock, lamb, etc. The Word of God, the Eucharist and the community gradually help the neocatechumens to be emptied of false concepts of themselves and of God and to descend into their reality of being sinners in need of conversion, rediscovering the gratuitousness of the love of Christ, who forgives them and loves them.

In the concluding celebration of the first scrutiny, after the inscription of the name, they ask the Church to help them mature in faith in order to do works of eternal life,77 and then they receive the sign of the glorious cross of Christ, which illuminates the salvific role of the cross in the life of each person.

2nd. In the second step, of similar length, the neocatechumens celebrate the great stages of the history of salvation - Abraham, Exodus, Desert, Promised Land, etc. - and a time is given to them so that they may prove to themselves the sincerity of their intention to follow Jesus Christ78 in the light of his Word: “You cannot serve both God and money” (Mt 6:24).

In the concluding celebration of the second scrutiny, they renew before the Church the renunciation of the devil and they manifest the will to serve God alone. Thereafter, they study and celebrate the main biblical figures - Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, Noah, etc. - in the light of Christ.

73 See CONGREGATION FOR CATHOLIC EDUCATION, Ratio Fundamentalis Institutionis Sacerdotalis (March 19, 1985), nn. 20–101.

74 JOHN PAUL II, Apostolic Exhortation, Pastores Dabo Vobis, 68.

75 See Phil 2:7.

76 See Mic 6:8.

77 See 1 Jn 3:14–15; Eph 2:10.

78 See Lk 14:25–33.

Statute – Final Approved Text – June 2008 13

§ 2. The scrutinies, inspired by the catechumenal itinerary of the RCIA, help the neocatechumens in their way of conversion, respecting the conscience and the internal forum, in accordance with canonical norms.79" However in the wikipidia artical it states that the 1st scrutiny is a PUBLIC CONFESSION to see how devout members are in following the Necatechumenal way. This is incorrect.

As the statutes state, it is not public, follows the canonical norms in respecting conscience and the internal forum and is NOT meant to see how DEVOUT members are. It is to help bring catechumens to discover the reality of their lives in order to convert and live a Christian Life in full communion with Christ and the Church. WJS714 (talk) 20:39, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

@Ncwfl, the edits you've made have taken away some web-archive links, e.g. the statues. Maybe your sandbox edition was based on a version before the pass of the bot? CathAZP (talk) 20:53, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for catching this! I fixed it.Ncwfl (talk) 20:58, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 April 2023

Please change ""Public confessions"" under Leadership and Governance to ""Private Confessions respecting the conscience and the internal forum, in accordance with canonical norms"" This noted in the article referenced for the Statutes of the Neocatechumenal way WJS714 (talk) 20:44, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

@WJS714, I have restored the section to a version unaffected by disruptive editing (with corrected references to both primary and secondary sources; Cardinal O'Malley seems to be one of the very few ordinaries that make their schedule and activity almost completely public; there may be other bishops on social medias, but quoting Card. Sean seems sufficient to me), since the change you've proposed is still inaccurate.

This paragraph still does not fit into the section in which it is included, and I did not want to trash it. Does anyone have any proposals on where to move it? CathAZP (talk) 14:27, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 April 2023 (2)

Under leadership and governance please change "so that they may prove the sincerity of their intention to follow the Neocatechumenal Way" to "so that they may prove to themselves the sincerity of their intention to follow Jesus Christ78 in the light of his Word: “You cannot serve both God and money” (Mt 6:24)" WJS714 (talk) 20:49, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Cult vs. sect

This slow edit-warring has gone on too long. Please discuss instead of reverting. Valereee (talk) 13:31, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Valereee, looking at the discussion you just archived, there was no support for this to be labeled as a sect. I agree that the previous label as "an itinerary/process in the Catholic Church for faith formation" and "Itinerary of Catholic formation," and likely is not appropriate for wiki even though it is the language described in the references that were originally listed. Maybe this could be like Order of Christian Initiation of Adults where it can be describes a process instead of using words like Itinerary.

Regarding the references to a sect, it was previously attempted to be discussed, with no engagement from those who were supporting its inclusion. It hardly seems appropriate to list it as such in the first line of the article and in the infobox when the only reference that exists is a highly biased and unreliable source. I think the line should be changed to The Neocatechumenal Way, also known as the Neocatechumenate, or NCW is a process of faith formation in the Catholic Church. And similarly, although I dont think the tag is appropriate, in the type it should be changed to Process of catholic formation/Sect with the disputed tag while it gets discussed here. Ncwfl (talk) 21:11, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Hey, @Ncwfl! I have no opinion on content, just working as an admin here. If you think sect needs to be removed/your line used instead, you don't need to check with me. For me 'cult' is a BLP issue, and there was a slow-motion edit-war over it, so I removed it and semi-protected (which means IPs and brand-new accounts can't edit). If you make those edits and get reverted, come in immediately and open a discussion rather than reverting, and if those who are supporting inclusion don't engage within a reasonable period, go ahead and revert once more and ping me if they revert you again without discussing. Valereee (talk) 13:30, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

So I changed it away from Sect because there is a very clear definition in that page regarding what a sect is. Specifically, it says that there needs to be a clear separation from the original group that follows different rules and principles. There is no source that would show that this is the case in this situation, and numerous examples of it being embraced by the original group.

If process of faith formation in the catholic church is unclear, what is a better way to say this? If we remove as many individual details as possible fundamentally this is a series of small groups of people that routinely meet to further their knowledge and experience of the Catholic faith over the course of many years. Do you have any alternate proposal that bridges what I posted and how I describe it? Ncwfl (talk) 18:11, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

This group is a cult. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.255.182.167 (talk) 05:40, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm not expert. Just found the term 'process of faith formation' (or whatever) to be completely opaque. I have no objection to not calling it a sect, either, but we can't use what sounds like the group's own marketing terms. Call it a group within the church if you can find a source saying that, fine. Call it a network of bible study groups if you can find a source saying that, fine. But lacking an article we can link to, call it something that people can understand. Valereee (talk) 17:14, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

A previous reference [1] specifically called it a A program of formation which was previously removed by the IP spammer. Formation could be clarified into faith development making it a 'program of faith development in the Catholic Church organized into small communities." With the inclusion of the reference seem appropriate? Ncwfl (talk) 17:46, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

That's the Catholic church saying that? It may be some sort of jargon within the church...I certainly am not familiar with the terms 'program of formation' or 'faith development' or 'program of faith development'. Maybe just call it a program? Valereee (talk) 12:51, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

The official recognition is even more jargony 'Itinerary of Formation.' I think that program is a good starting point for refinement by others. Ncwfl (talk) 15:48, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Program is fine with me. Valereee (talk) 21:40, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

A program in the catholic church??, It states that it is a iteniary of faith, "an itinerary of Catholic formation" why call it a group when Kiko wanted to fight for the title of the itinary of faith. If they want to understand what it is they can go deeper them selfs.https://neocatechumenaleiter.org/en/ Neocat14324 (talk) 01:07, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

We're trying to come up with something that readers will understand. In absence of a link to itinerary of faith or itinerary of formation or something, I have no idea what that means. It's jargon. Can you explain what an "itinerary of Catholic formation" is? Valereee (talk) 14:45, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

This group is a cult, calling it a program in misleading and inaccurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.255.182.167 (talk) 05:19, 17 June 2024 (UTC)