Talk:Nayef bin Abdulaziz

Name

could anyone please change the name from Nayef to Naif ? its more common to be written like this in English . Ammar 17:29, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Done. Naif bin Abdul Aziz. --Rajah (talk) 20:49, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

The name of the subject of this page is spelled Naif; see: [1]. Formal transliteration rules do not apply when a particular spelling has become accepted.Supertouch (talk) 21:55, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I dont think the name should be changed to Naif. This is because all newspaper chains (such as the New York Times) and the Saudi Ministry use Nayef. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mni9791 (talk • contribs) 23:04, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

The Saudi Ministry of the Interior spells his name Naif, see: [2].Supertouch (talk) 23:07, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

hey supertouch. i think the article should be Nayef because major newspaper chains such as the New York Times use Nayef not Naif —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mni9791 (talk • contribs) 23:01, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

[3] [4] [5] all the above: New York Times, Arab Times, National Public Radio (NPR) use Nayef —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mni9791 (talk • contribs) 23:08, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

i meant saudi embassy. sorry. proof- http://www.saudiembassy.net/latest_news/news12190902.aspx —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mni9791 (talk • contribs) 23:10, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

On the basis of the evidence above and the failure for any response, i will change the name from Naif to Nayef. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mni9791 (talk • contribs) 16:57, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

It ought to be changed as the official Saudi transliteration is Naif, as in Prince Naif Airport or Prince Naif Arab University for Security Sciences. See for comparison such Arabic names as "Raif". 2607:FB60:1011:2006:C8FA:EE34:6BEF:9D86 (talk) 18:48, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Bias

this article is overly bias, its calls him a monster. that pushed it over the line, this need some work done on it, more sources. Dunkerya 04:59, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Picture needed

Help.(Mni9791 (talk) 06:05, 19 March 2011 (UTC))

The person on the picture is obviously NOT Nayef sorry please compare with photos taken in 2010 178.27.206.200 (talk) 14:26, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

The person on the picture is late Prince Nayef. You can believe in me. Egeymi (talk) 14:28, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Article's name change

I changed the article name per The official naming convention. --Saud (talk) 01:20, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

I have moved the page title back to a more natural phrasing of the subject's name. The example cited above is for European-style substantive royal titles, e.g. Frederik, Crown Prince of Denmark, who is referred to as "HRH The Crown Prince of Denmark", hence the format of the title. Saudi titles work differently: Prince Nayef is widely referred to as "HRH Crown Prince Nayef bin Abdul-Aziz Al Saud" [6] and not "HRH The Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia", hence the previous page title "Nayef, Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia" is less suitable. —Yk Yk Yk  talk ~ contrib 04:57, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

An interesting assertion. The Wikipedia naming convention doesn't establish a test based on manner of address. I'm not yet sure you've made a convincing case for an exception to the convention, and it was probably a little hasty to make such a major change without prior discussion. I submit as counterexamples Hussein bin Al Abdullah, Crown Prince of Jordan and Moulay Hassan, Crown Prince of Morocco. Ibadibam (talk) 19:51, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

As I alluded to above, the Wikipedia naming convention is meant to accomodate substantive titles, e.g. HRH The Crown Prince, HRH The Duke of Cambridge, HRH The Prince of Wales. Prince Nayef is never referred to as HRH The Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia; furthermore, he is always referred to in his full name in Arabic and the Saudi English media. I don't think "Nayef Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia" is unacceptable, I just think it is a little misleading with regard to his "title". I am open to the page being moved back if other editors feel it is better to standardize with other articles. — Yk Yk Yk talk ~ contrib 21:35, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

It sounds like what you're saying is that, because his manner of address is different than for European royals, "Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia" shouldn't be considered a substantive title. But a substantive title is not necessarily one that is used in place of a name; it is any title that is directly granted or inherited by an individual, contrasted with a courtesy title, which is used for a relative of a title holder, and a subsidiary title, which is an additional title not used by an individual. So in this case, we are working with a substantive title.

Our task here is to uphold the Wikipedia guidelines, which dictate we use Nayef's substantive title, as before. The other option is to consider him an "other royal," in which case the title is Crown Prince Nayef of Saudi Arabia. In either case, don't forget that the manual of style still dictates that he be referred to as Nayef bin Abdul-Aziz Al Saud at first mention in the article itself. If you feel that neither option is appropriate, then I suggest we start a topic on the naming conventions talk page proposing a new convention for Arab royals and nobles. In the meantime, let's stick to the guidelines. Ibadibam (talk) 03:49, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Positions currently held

There has apparently been some confusion as to Nayef's new post. He is now First Deputy Prime Minster, not Prime Minister. He is also referred to by the Saudi Press Agency as Deputy Premier as in this post. The post of Prime Minister is held by the king. Ibadibam (talk) 06:05, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Recent deletion

Considerable portion of the article has been deleted, even though this info is well sourced. Please try to fix them all. Thanks.Egeymi (talk) 17:37, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

It was fixed. Please do not delete any sourced content before discussing here. Thanks.Egeymi (talk) 07:45, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Dead link

The following link given before is dead, so I put it below:

http://www.7days.ae/storydetails.php?id=75783%20%20%20%20&page=local%20news&title=Prince%20sees%20no%20need%20for%20women "Quotes regarding democracy and women in government"

Added Wikify tag

I've added a Wikify tag because the use of the English language in this article needs to be improved. Also, the overwhelming majority of sources are in Arabic, and that presents a problem for unilingual Anglophone researchers. Guyovski (talk) 17:30, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Which sources you mention? There are 41 references and none is Arabic.Egeymi (talk) 17:42, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

And as a newcomer you are so ambitious to put this tag, since the article has been corrected with so valuable edits since the news broke.Egeymi (talk) 17:50, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

If you do not mind, I will delete the tag you have put.Egeymi (talk) 17:50, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

No need for such a tag. The article is being written, rewritten, and updated per his death yesterday. If the article was unattended to for some time, then the tag might be appropriate, but not in this situation. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 18:58, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks to Ism schism for remaining constructive and factual. I did some research and realized the tag I really wanted was "copy edit," but I take the point that this article is continuously being rewritten. I also have a low level of tolerance for emotionalism in Wikipedia talk page discussions, so it's unlikely I'll even keep this page under watch. Bye all and have a nice life. Guyovski (talk) 21:32, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Nice to hear these words, thanks, Egeymi (talk) 21:43, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Questions

I have some questions:

1. Is it normal in Saudi Arabia to refer to a brother with the same mother and father as what would be translated literally as "full brother," and is it normally hyphenated when written in English? In the US at least, the word "full" would not be used. Instead, we distinguish between this scenario and that where one parent is different by calling the latter "half-brother".
2. In areas of the article referring to a time after he was appointed Crown Prince, is it correct to refer to the subject as Prince Nayef, or should those be changed to Crown Prince Nayef?
3. After discussion of his first and second wives, the next 'graph says "Maha bint Mohammed bin Ahmad al Sudairi is another spouse". Is it correct to refer to her as his third wife, or is there a distinction intentionally being made here? I'll note that there are apparently no articles for her children, unlike some of those from the previous marriages.
4. Some place and person names are spelled differently in the article than a matching enWiki article. While I've changed some place names, and "Nayif" and "Abdallah", to be consistent within the article and with the enWiki article they link to, I'm not sure what to do with situations where someone has specifically used an alternate spelling in the wikilink, like Nawwaf bin Faysal. My inclination would be to change the argument to "Nawaf bin Faisal". Thoughts? BTW, shouldn't the "Bin"s in that article name be "bin"?
5. The article title is currently "Nayef bin Abdul-Aziz Al Saud". The lead, however, is slightly different: "Nayef bin Abdulaziz Al Saud". Datarabia calls him "Nayif bin Abd al-Aziz" (and also has different spelling/caps/punct for many other names). Is there a transliteration standard that we should attempt to use on WP? I think I normally see other names with an "al" prefix written as "al-Something" (e.g. al-Walid, al-Aziz), but in the case of "Al Saud", it is cap'd and un-hyphenated. Is there a reason for this?

Some other permutations in just this article:

• Sultan bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
• Salman bin Abdul-Aziz Al Saud
• Fahd bin Abdulaziz al Saud
• al Qaeda

Trying to learn :) —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 04:08, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

1. It is not common in Saudi Arabia, except when discussing the sons of Ibn Saud, due both the sheer number of kids Ibn Saud had and the wife. Furthermore some groups of full brothers, most notably the Sudairi Seven, have an alliance together to form a power bloc.
2. He should be referred to as Prince, his office is Crown Prince.
3. A distinction is being made as he may have had another wife who is not known.
4. I would agree. Just fix the alternative transliterations.
5. My preference is with Nayef bin Abdulaziz Al Saud. The reason that al varies is inconsistent. 62.64.152.154 (talk) 02:59, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

Cleanup

I made a number of (re-)edits, as follows:

• Makkah → Mecca for consistency within article, with linked article name, common usage in English, and in the cite given (Thanks, Egeymi (talk) 13:50, 20 June 2012 (UTC))
• Abdul Aziz → Abdulaziz and ...Al Saud seem to be the suggested form. Changed throughout. Should we change the article name, as well as others with the old form? (Thanks, yes you are right, I tried to change the article title but there is some technical problem with it. Maybe we can solve later, Egeymi (talk) 13:50, 20 June 2012 (UTC))
• Hassa bint Ahmed al Sudairi → Hassa bint Ahmad al Sudairi. Should "al" be "Al"? ("Al" seems to be common, Egeymi (talk) 13:50, 20 June 2012 (UTC))
• Removed excess links again (particularly to Price Ahmed). Per WP:MOS. Only the first occurrence in the main article should be linked. Additional links are provided in Infobox and Navbox. (Thanks, I will also follow this rule from now on,Egeymi (talk) 13:50, 20 June 2012 (UTC))
• I found no evidence of Sheikh Saud Al Shuraim conducting the funeral. Not a single Google hit. Sources all say "led by "King Abdullah", which is what we cite and have to use. (Me too, I put the statement with "led by King Abdullah" but yesterday someone changed it and I did not search as you. Then, "led by King Abdullah" can be used since it is supoorted by the sources, Egeymi (talk) 13:50, 20 June 2012 (UTC))

• The source (http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/06/17/221127.html) stating that King Abdullah led the funeral prayer is incorrect. Even the video in the source clearly shows that Sheikh Shuraim led the janaza prayer. Although King Abdullah performed the prayer, he did not lead it. A better quality video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ai6GEKzKidQ#t=32m00s Here's a source that says Shuraim led the prayer http://www.saudigazette.com.sa/index.cfm?method=home.regcon&contentid=20120618127306 Axiom292 (talk) 05:57, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

—[AlanM1 (talk)]— 12:44, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Axiom292, then add it. No need to discuss it here. Noone will delete a piece of info based on a RELIABLE source.Egeymi (talk) 06:05, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

External links modified

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• Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.thenewstribune.com/2011/03/13/1582849/saudis-organize-outside-interior.html
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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130906232734/http://saudiembassy.net/about/NayefbinAbdulaziz.aspx to http://www.saudiembassy.net/about/NayefbinAbdulaziz.aspx

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Naif

I should like to bring to your attention that the prevailing transliteration of the name is Naif, as opposed to Nayef. The name is rendered as such on government bulletins, streets, buildings, and institutions—not to mention the many people (yours truly included) who spell their own names so. Compare Naif to other names that follow the same grammatical scheme, like Raif. I would hope that the page might be altered to reflect this.

Peregrine Aurel (talk) 07:09, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 18 November 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved as proposed. It was demonstrated, and there was consensus, that the proposed name fits WP naming conventions better than the current one.  — Amakuru (talk) 11:35, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

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• Nayef bin Abdulaziz Al Saud → Nayef bin Abdulaziz
• Luluwah bint Abdulaziz Al Saud → Luluwah bint Abdulaziz
• Haya bint Abdulaziz Al Saud → Haya bint Abdulaziz
• Talal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud → Talal bin Abdulaziz
• Sultan bin Abdulaziz Al Saud → Sultan bin Abdulaziz
• Sultana bint Abdulaziz Al Saud → Sultana bint Abdulaziz

– Most if not all of the other many offspring of Ibn Saud are referred to in the article title without using the last name. Векочел (talk) 22:23, 18 November 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. (t · c) buidhe 18:51, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Al Saud should not be deleted from the title to avoid confusions, so no need to move them. Egeymi (talk) 05:19, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Another point is that instead of focusing on such secondary dimensions the authors may consider to expand the articles using reliable sources. Egeymi (talk) 05:21, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

This is true. What I had in mind was the standardisation of the article titles, whether with Al Saud or without. Векочел (talk) 03:09, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Egeymi, according to WP:NAMINGCRITERIA, article titles should be based on the following:

• Recognizability – The title is a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area will recognize.
• Naturalness – The title is one that readers are likely to look or search for and that editors would naturally use to link to the article from other articles. Such a title usually conveys what the subject is actually called in English.
• Precision – The title unambiguously identifies the article's subject and distinguishes it from other subjects. (See § Precision and disambiguation, below.)
• Conciseness – The title is no longer than necessary to identify the article's subject and distinguish it from other subjects. (See § Conciseness, below.)
• Consistency – The title is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles. Many of these patterns are listed (and linked) as topic-specific naming conventions on article titles, in the box above.

I believe its fair to say the suggested titles meet the recognizability, naturalness, and conciseness criteria. There are very few people named “bin Abdulaziz” outside the Saudi royal family so it would also meet precision criteria. Finally, we ought to remove “Al Saud” to have consistency with articles like Saud of Saudi Arabia (not Saud Al Saud), Faisal of Saudi Arabia (not Faisal Al Saud), etc. Векочел (talk) 02:37, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

• Support per nom.73.110.217.186 (talk) 23:44, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 28 November 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 21:54, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

---

• Nayef bin Abdulaziz → Nayef bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
• Sultan bin Abdulaziz → Sultan bin Abdulaziz Al Saud

– The standard practice for most articles on the Al Saud family is to include their surname. Most other Middle Eastern royal families follow this practice also (Oman is an exception, and kings of Saudi Arabia are titled as Name of Saudi Arabia). I have no strong opinion on this matter, but drawing on precedent for the Saudis the surname should be included. Векочел (talk) 04:39, 28 November 2021 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran • sign the guestbook • (talk) 06:09, 5 December 2021 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran • sign the guestbook • (talk) 09:54, 15 December 2021 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran • sign the guestbook • (talk) 17:55, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Support - agree, as per nom and convention. Being of the Al Saud family is basically their notability. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:26, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

• relisting comment there was an RM one year ago, which was successful, and had requested the exact opposite names. I believe this RM needs more participation. —usernamekiran • sign the guestbook • (talk) 06:09, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Strong support - I wish last year it was not supported because it was unnecessary Egeymi (talk) 14:00, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

• Strong oppose per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CONCISE. An ngram search for "Sultan bin Abdulaziz" vs "Sultan bin Abdulaziz Al Saud" shows the former running at around 10x the usage of the latter. That means that the shorter form is overwhelmingly the common name, even allowing for the fact that the former is a subphrase of the latter and therefore includes all hits for the latter. The same ngram for Nayef bin Abdulaziz doesn't even record anything for the Al Saud version at all. The current titles are also self-evidently more concise than the proposed titles, therefore per Wikipedia article titling policy it is clear that they are already at the correct title. I don't think "Al Saud" is really a "surname" in the Western sense of the word anyway, so unclear what the motivation for this move request is. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 11:28, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Sultan bin Abdulaziz which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 22:48, 19 May 2022 (UTC)