Talk:National symbols of Wales
Latest comment: 27 days ago by Hogyncymru in topic Gold Dragon
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Gold Dragon
editI have removed the Gold Dragon from the list, added in 2022 by Titus Gold. The TL:DR reason is that Titus Gold created a whole page for this once, and we looked at the historical sources and simply did not find such a symbol of Wales in them and the page was redirected into the red dragon article. But specifically on this entry, here are some of the things making it problematic:
- The image is of a Wyvern, not a dragon. Note that the dragon on Glyndwr's seal has 4 legs, not 2 [1]
- Arthurian legend is not Welsh history
- Glyndwr history is being sourced to a newspaper and the link is dead anyway. Newspapers are not suitable sources for Welsh history
- The Nathenamin source is a blog. WP:SPS
- Next 2 sources are also newspapers (the National - dead link again, and Wales Online)
- The Rudy gold colour source fails to verify. See Talk:Welsh Gold Dragon
- Although there was a dragon on the privy seal (link as above) it was not only a dragon, and that was his personal seal, not a symbol of Wales. It was a seal and not a flag and the existence of the dragon took the pre-existing dragon symbols. The seal, of course, is uncoloured - it is used to make an impression in wax, and the wax could be any colour, although red is common.
So all in all it is just speculative and ahistorical. Sirfurboyđ (talk) 07:19, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
- Iv'e no idea what you're talking about here, Adam of Usk specifically mentions a gold dragon and by looking at Owain Glyndwr's privy seal, the dragon is a wyvern, the word 'dragon' can refer to a dragon especially when definitions were not that important in medieval times, also, you say that Arthurian legend is not Welsh history? how did you come up with this? it was documented by Geoffrey of Monmouth (Monmouth being the hint), the story was recorded from storytellers from Wales, the tale mentions kingdoms throughout Britain (which were Brythonic speaking at the time) which makes them very much part of Welsh history..
- You also make assumptions to the wax not having colours and use that as proof that the dragon (wyvern) not being gold?, again.. Adam of Usk literally tells us its colour.. and if you worry about the accuracies of the flag, well.. you see, every image of a flag on wikipedia is a modern take, even that of the main Welsh dragon (which should have a pizzle as that's how the Tudors depicted him as.. but it's missing).
- You also failed to correct an actual error in the page, GlyndƔr'r lions, there are no documented evidence to show that they were used as a 'banner' or a flag in his campaign, it is very possible that they were used in his courts as flags.. but no evidence, the lions are shown on his wax seals though, on the horse he's riding, on his shield and on the blanket which cherubs hold behind his throne and under his feet (I think), and the reference to 'prove' that it was used as a flag comes from WalesOnline which fails to reference its use as a flag, poor journalism?. Hogyncymru (talk) 01:54, 21 October 2024 (UTC)