Talk:Naseem Hamed/RFC on Ethnicity

RFC on Nationality and Ethnicity

Should the lede sentence describe the nationality and ethnicity of the subject as:

• A. Naseem Hamed is a British-Yemeni boxer.
• B, Naseem Hamed is a British boxer of Yemeni descent.
• C. Naseem Hamed is a British boxer.

? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:47, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Provide your answers as A, B, or C with brief explanatory statements in the Survey. Do not reply to the statements of other editors in the Survey. Back-and-forth discussion should go in the Discussion section; that's what it's for.

Survey

• B, as given in the discussion, his Yemeni descent\heritage is notable to him which is his ethnicity, due to his own emphasis and the symbolism to his identity, and this will make the lede section conform to WP:ETHNICITY and WP:NPOV and was mentioned in numerous reliable sources, However I also don’t have a problem with A, however B is more precise. |MK| 📝 18:27, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

  I mean the discussion in the talk page of his article and the discussion in the DRN |MK| 📝 18:51, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

• B since I don't get the other arguments and this doesn't suggest nationality. Aaron Liu (talk) 19:53, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
• Support A - per all the arguments that were presented in the previous discussion Abo Yemen✉ 14:55, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

I have no problems with B, though Abo Yemen✉ 14:56, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

• C (Summoned by bot) in order that we break the usual practice against invoking ethnicity in the opening sentence, the overwhelming balance of sources should refer to his 'heritage' as relevant. They don't if we are to judge those offered. 'Arab' sources understandably 'play up' his Yemeni connection, just as Greek sources refer to Pete Sampras as 'Greek' and often Irish sources will emphasise any American's connection to the 'old country'. All countries do this, including the UK itself if the subject is famous and popular. Another source quoted is in an article specifically about ethnicity and prejudice in the past in the UK, so understandably refers to Hamed's Yemeni background. The case is simply not made that he is usually referred to as 'Yemeni' or 'British-Yemeni'. Another objection is that 'hyphened' 'nationalities' are always ambiguous. Do they mean dual national or nationality-ethnicity? If his background needs expanding to include any relevant facts, that's another matter, but the guy is a citizen of the UK, ie British. Born there, trained there, always fought as 'British'. I find some of the arguments at DRN especially weak, the fact that someone would be entitled to a particular citizenship, has no bearing on whether they actually hold, or have ever held it.Pincrete (talk) 05:04, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
• C per majority of sources from mainstream boxing media describing him as British; also resident of Britain, competed under a British licence, trained in Britain, and established his most notable career accomplishments in Britain. Yemeni heritage can be mentioned later in the lead section. Will not object to B if consensus results, but would strongly disagree with A. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 17:07, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
• C I am in complete agreement with Pincrete's reasoning. Hamed was born, raised and spent his career in the UK. His ethnic background belongs later, not in the lead sentence. Like Mac Dreamstate, I am firmly opposed to A. Cullen328 (talk) 21:36, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
• C - His citizenship should be emphasised in the lead sentence; not his heritage per WP:ETHNICITY. Morbidthoughts (talk) 21:47, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
• C - This is overwhelmingly how he is described in reliable sources. There's plenty more room to talk about his background, but his background in this way doesn't have the sourcing heft to justify it in the lede. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 02:42, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

@Pincrete:

"the overwhelming balance of sources should refer to his 'heritage' as relevant. They don't if we are to judge those offered. 'Arab' sources understandably 'play up' his Yemeni connection, just as Greek sources refer to Pete Sampras as 'Greek' and often Irish sources will emphasise any American's connection to the 'old country'." - First of all, 3 out of 5 sources mention his heritage and are not 'Arab to being with', which is the overwhelming majority in the sources provided, if you read the whole discussion you would’ve known this. Second of all, unlike a lot of other athletes, Naseem has taken the extra step to make it notable to his identity, being a Yemeni, and not just a fact that “yeah he is of Yemeni origins” if you’ve seen his fights and the most other sources provided. The majority of the sources provided are not Arab as I’ve stated and are in-fact mostly western (if that helps). |MK| 📝 05:37, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

I didn't claim, or mean to imply that the majority of sources were Arab, merely that the one which was Arab was - almost inevitably - going to tend to emphasise the 'local' connection. Just as a Sheffield source would be likely to emphasise the 'Sheffield' element. The 5 sources were those specifically being employed to suggest that including his heritage is normal, as such they are very weak. There are far more - and more mainstream AFAI can see - on the article itself which don't mention his heritage. Our default position is to not describe someone's ethnicity in the lead, so a very strong case would need to be made IMO to deviate from that. I distantly remember Hamed's name, but make no apologies for saying I know next-to-nothing about boxing. Carrying flags, declaring his pride in his heritage on his website or in interviews etc. may all be notable and recordable facets of his private personality or professional identity. They don't alter his nationality and would need to be much more central to his notability before being recorded in the opening sentence IMO. Pincrete (talk) 06:31, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

One out of the two Arab sources state British of Yemeni heritage/descent, just as the other sources do, leaving only one Arab source making the 'local' connection as you’ve stated. As stated, there is a possibility of him possessing a Yemeni citizenship as per the naturalization law, just saying “British” could very well be, inaccurate, even if you ruled this one out, we basically can not confirm that his only citizenship is British. "Carrying flags, declaring his pride in his heritage on his website or in interviews etc. may all be notable and recordable facets of his private personality or professional identity." - Notable, WP:ETHNICITY, it is relevant to his notability as per those acts and per the sources cited, hence it needs to be mentioned in the lede. Hence why I choose B over C. |MK| 📝 07:50, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Not doing so would violate WP:NPOV as we are only taking into account him being British, even though being Yemeni is notable. |MK| 📝 08:19, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

The possibility of naturalization is irrelevant here.
Notability is about coverage, not necessarily just actions. If these actions are widely reported in context of his Yemeni heritage, then yes, it is notable. Otherwise, not so much. Aaron Liu (talk) 11:42, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Possibility of naturalization is not that important, it’s just to add to the fact why it’s needed to add “British boxer of Yemeni descent”, even though it is notable to him for its inclusion in the lede. |MK| 📝 11:56, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't think saying that he is of Yemeni descent as reported in many sources and events is the same is claiming that to be nationality, which would indeed be some nonsense. Hamed has a much higher claim to Yemeni descent than e.g. Sampras due to both reporting and having both parents be Yemeni. Aaron Liu (talk) 11:40, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

5 sources inserted mention being “British-Yemeni” or “British … of Yemeni origins” both of which always implying his heritage/descent. |MK| 📝 11:53, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

That’s why it’s notable, using other athletes’ lede’s formats wouldn’t make sense for Hamed’s article’s lede, his heritage is actually notable to him. |MK| 📝 11:59, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

... which is what I'm saying. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:30, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

I know, I’m agreeing. |MK| 📝 15:13, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

The case is simply not made that he is usually referred to as 'Yemeni' or 'British-Yemeni', which is the threshold for ignoring MOS:ETHNICITY and including in the opening para AFAI am concerned. Nobody objects to recording his background/heritage etc, possibly later in the lead, but what you are arguing for is not only that his heritage be recorded, but that it be almost THE defining aspect of his notability, along with nationality, sport, weight class etc. The number and quality of the sources don't reach anywhere near that threshold AFAI can see. Pincrete (talk) 16:49, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

I think there is a misunderstanding, what I want is to comply with WP:ETHNICITY, which is saying British boxer of Yemeni heritage/descent, and not to make him being Yemeni the defining aspect of his notability. I Never said we should make his entire notability rotate around his heritage, but that his heritage/descent is notable to him, which requires us to say that in the lede as per the policy. I voted for B and not A by the way. |MK| 📝 18:44, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

My argument remains essentially the same, his ethnicity is not invoked by most sources, so does not need to be covered by us in the opening paragraph, even less the opening sentence. British of Yemeni heritage/descent is essentially expanding the usual meaning of British-Yemeni, but removing the ambiguity, in the same way that British-Asian usually means a Briton from an Asian background. Pincrete (talk) 03:49, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

It was invoked by sufficient sources cited in this discussion, and that does not deny its notability to him, which means we have to insert his ethnicity, as per WP:ETHNICITY. Remember we only add ethnicity if it is notable to the person in question, and it is. And I respectfully disagree, saying British-Yemeni is not the same as saying he is of Yemeni descent/heritage, with the former suggesting citizenship in most cases, while the latter does not and makes it very clear what his ethnicity is. |MK| 📝 06:40, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

He is a famous sportsman, thousands, possibly millions of articles have been written about him and his career. The vast majority do not even mention his background, the handful that do, don't wipe out the thousands that don't. Sources are necessary, but they don't guarantee inclusion, certainly not in 'pole position' in an article, especially when it goes against standard practice. Pincrete (talk) 08:34, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Let me make things clear, I'm not rooting for "British-Yemeni" but for "British boxer of Yemeni descent/heritage", you see it still says "British" first, as the majority of sources you've stated, and then there is his Yemeni descent/heritage, which is notable to him and was mentioned by sufficient sources, I've said before the RfC to add citations for "British" and "of Yemeni descent/heritage" separately. Standard practice does not mean to ignore WP policies, as we have made it clear that Hamed's case is different, his heritage is notable to him. |MK| 📝 12:54, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Someone (Redrose) recently deactivated the RfC. Is this RfC supposed to be active or not? Aaron Liu (talk) 11:43, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

I know votes have been cast already, but I can't tell if our DRN volunteer, User:Robert McClenon, intended the RfC to be activated or not. I'm refraining from voting until it's absolutely clear that's what we should be doing. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 17:10, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

@Aaron Liu and Mac Dreamstate: When Robert McClenon (talk · contribs) created this subpage, they used the word "draft" in the edit summary, but their use of nowiki, intended to hide the rfc tag, failed to prevent Legobot picking it up (this is a documented drawback), consequently, Yapperbot sent out a bunch of premature messages (recipients being Aaron Liu, Coretheapple, Cullen328, Haoreima, Iffy, and Pincrete). Robert McClenon hasn't edited this page since, so as far as I am concerned, it's still a draft RfC. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 19:01, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Well, he reactivated the RfC <5 mins after you replied that, so I guess either all was as intended or with gone into sunken costs. Aaron Liu (talk) 19:30, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Update and Slight Apology

@Mac Dreamstate, Aaron Liu, and Redrose64: - I had originally been planning to copy-paste the RFC onto Talk:Naseem Hamed and activate it. However, as User:Redrose64 pointed out, I hadn't successfully deactivated it in draft, because it appears that the bot doesn't recognize nowiki, so the bot sent out some invitations. At this point, now that the RFC has been transcluded onto the talk page, the simplest course of action is for me to activate it in place, as a subpage. The votes and statements that were made should and can stand; they were and are statements by editors in the community. I apologize for using the wrong method of trying to deactivate the RFC for draft, and have learned better what to do for future RFCs. There should now be no question that this is a working RFC, and can run for a month. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:38, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

I think the actual mistake you made was <./nowiki> instead of </nowiki> (note the extra dot), which I took to be less experienced editors' voluntary activation of the template. Thanks! Aaron Liu (talk) 19:40, 6 June 2024 (UTC)