Talk:Multiple sub-Nyquist sampling encoding

Bias in article

This article is ridiculously biased and needs to be fixed. Can you really turn something like a defunct high definition analog signal into a political debate? Well, on Wikipedia you can.

Examples I have noticed:

I.) The timeline which reads as follows:

Internal reasons inside Japan that led to the creation of Hi-Vision

(1940s): The NTSC standard (as a 525 line monochrome system) was imposed by the US occupation forces. (1950s-1960s): Unlike Canada (that could have switched to PAL), Japan was stuck with the US TV transmission standard regardless of circumstances. (1960s-1970s): By the late 1960s many parts of the modern Japanese electronics industry had gotten their start by fixing the transmission and storage problems inherent with NTSC's design. (1970s-1980s): By the 1980s there was spare engineering talent available in Japan that could design a better television system.

This entire point is entirely someone else's idea of how things happened and contains no sources. The only conclusion that one can draw from this is that the only reason Japan hadn't produced an analog high definition signal sooner was because NTSC was imposed on Japan forcibly and therefore Japan had to fix NTSC broadcasting before it could proceed with this standard. This is someone's subjective viewpoint. Until someone can come up with original research regarding this, I can't see why this is here.

II.) The section "Hi-Vision's long term successes"

This section starts out with the line "How Hi-Vision ultimately succeeded technically" - So keep in mind, this is supposed to be how it excelled as a standard, not about anything else. Instead, we're faced with such lines as:

1.) Japan has its own digital HDTV system (ISDB) that is not tied to any US television standard, except for its backward compatibility with digital NTSC programming.

This both has nothing to do with MUSE and has nothing to do with this article in the first place. Secondly, it's transforming this into a political issue.

2.) Japan, like Brazil (that has its own TV system derived from NTSC) has a television set manufacturing capability within its economy.

The generalization that this has anything to do with Hi-Vision as a standard is highly dubious at best.

3.) The US lost its TV set manufacturing capabilities as the Centerville, Ohio Thomson SA TV set manufacturing facility (once an RCA facility) was closed after 2005. There was a PBS Frontline documentary done on this facility.

How does this have anything to do with this standard? How are people losing jobs in another country a success of a TV standard?

4.) The US is no longer considered to be the nation with the most advanced research in image compression, specifically digital video. The number of digital image compression patents per year (relating to digital video), and NSF image processing research funding have not substantially changed since the early 2000s.

How is an uninvolved country falling behind on digital image compression research a technical success of an analog standard that was basically defunct since the time period mentioned?

5.) The Europeans have had to totally abandon their 1250/50 HD-MAC system, with all archival material being converted into the 1080p/50 format.

This is both hateful and subjective, like all of the other points listed. As I am not an expert in the subject, I feel unqualified to edit this, but I see only one cited source and many statements that seem spurious and politically motivated.

I agree with you that it is probably not supported by sources, however your conclusions about the timeline (point I.) are not the conclusions I would draw. It was not that the problems with NTSC had to be fixed before the MUSE standard could be developed; it was that fixing those problems (if that actually happened) had spawned an industry with enormous experience in television modification and improvement within existing constraints. Once the problems with NTSC had been fixed (presumably sometime around 1980), that industry had nothing to do, so in the absence of problems to fix, it turned to creating HDTV. I find it quite believable, though as I said, it probably can't be supported by published sources.

The problem with the increasing preoccupation with whether or not things are offensive is leading to an inability to see anything other than offense in the most unemotional of statements, and in the most unemotional of subjects... we are talking about TV standards here, not sexual preference. At least I try (talk) 15:12, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

More research needed

The article states that design for HDTV by NHK goes back to 1979 but everything I've heard and read dates it back to 1968. If anyone knows more about the evolution of HDTV, you should include a history of HDTV. Also a "future of" or a "next step" section would be good as well. I've read where NHK is developing a new TV system that is so high res that when it was displayed at a trade show viewers became motion sick.

MUSE

Muse is a pretty cool band, Am I right or Am I right? I love Japan and I love Muse, and now I love their analog TV. It's kind of bad they're switching to that new standard but what the hey, even higher quality for watching anime ^^ 24.129.235.151 (talk) 08:51, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Sega Saturn

"The Japanese Sega Saturn could output a Hi-Vision signal (352×480p or 704×480p) with special cables."

I have edited this to read:

"The Japanese Sega Saturn hardware is capable of producing a Hi-Vision signal (352×480p or 704×480p) with custom cables, though such cables were never released to retail and no retail games support these non-interlaced resolutions."

However, because of the fact that Sega never officially supported these resolutions, never manufactured a Hi-Vision cable, and never offered any games that support these resolutions (all facts that bear simple web searches), I think that the Sega Saturn section of this article should be removed. I believe that it's only mentioned here because, in video game hardware enthusiast circles, discussion of the untapped potential of the Saturn's "Hi-Vision" capabilities is popular. But without any support whatsoever (besides a homebrew tech demo that was produced solely for users of custom modified cables to prove that the Saturn HW was capable of ED progressive scan resolutions), the point is largely unimportant. 67.161.19.128 (talk) 00:06, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

On further consideration, I am removing the Saturn section altogether. Regardless of the image resolutions that the Sega Saturn is capable of producing, the Saturn does not really use MUSE at all. 67.161.19.128 (talk) 23:25, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

How Aspect Ratio is used?

Please read this article of 4.3 "The new unified standard for Japan, America and Canada". It says that The Japanese proposed standard was discussed to make new unified standard with U.S. and aspect ratio was changed to 16:9 from 5:3 by reason of relationship of Film Industry.--Hadsn (talk) 17:33, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Digital vs analog and MUSE

The article as written could lead to confusion to the reader as the whether MUSE was an analog or digital video system. The lead, for example says it was a "dot-interlaced digital video compression system that used analog modulation for transmission to deliver 1125-line high definition video signals to the home." but the article does a poor job of explaining how as an analog HDTV format, it could use "digital video compression" while still being analog overall. Someone who better understands how MUSE works then I should fix the article to make it clear MUSE is an analog video system and explain how it uses "digital video compression" while still being a analog system, which to those lay-people who have just the basic understanding of analog vs digital is going to sound contradictory. --Notcharliechaplin (talk) 23:18, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

MUSE ≠ Hi-Vision

Currently, the article conflates MUSE and Hi-Vision.

Here is an excerpt from "High Definition Television: Hi-Vision Technology", by Ohgushi, Kumada, and Nishizawa (1993, Springer):

"Hi-Vision stands for a next-generation television system developed by NHK, and is a contraction of high-definition television. This system was designed with a higher resolution and larger screen than conventional television so as to create a sense of realism or telepresence. It has 1125 scan lines . . .

In addition, a band compression method for Hi-Vision signal transmission known as MUSE (Multiple Sub- Nyquist Encoding) was developed . . ."

(Preface, page ix)

So, MUSE is a compression technique for broadcast, and Hi-Vision is a term for the 1125/60 flavor of HD itself.

Here's an excerpt from "NAB HDTV Proceedings 1991":

"MUSE is a bandwidth compression technique used for direct broadcasting via satellite transmission . . .

By the mid-1980's, CBS acquired a full 1125/60 HDTV system from Sony. CBS began to conduct numerous demonstrations of HDTV, some that compared the effectiveness of the Multiple Sub-Nyquist Encoding (MUSE) bandwidth compression technique with the full bandwidth of the Sony HD system."

(page 8)

This too makes a distinction between MUSE and the "Sony HD system" (see Sony HDVS - it uses the 1125/60 Hi-Vision signal standard).

For this reason, I plan to edit this article to clarify. HenryMP02 (talk) 05:14, 11 October 2022 (UTC)