Talk:Moscow Central Circle
 | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
 | Material from Moscow Ring Railway was split to Moscow Central Circle on 11 September 2016. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted so long as the latter page exists. Please leave this template in place to link the article histories and preserve this attribution. The former page's talk page can be accessed at Talk:Moscow Ring Railway. |
"Circle" or "Ring"?
editIn the official Russian name (which was introduced in July 2016), the word koljco (кольцо) is used. In general, the word can be translated as either "circle" or "ring". However, for the name of this particular rail line the word "ring" seems to be preferred in English-language documents produced in Moscow, where it is referred to as Moscow Central Ring. This includes this detailed article http://rbth.com/politics_and_society/2016/09/09/how-moscows-new-light-rail-system-will-make-life-easier-for-passengers_628517 in a semi-official news channel, or this news release https://www.mos.ru/en/news/item/14765073 at the City Hall web cite. So it seems to me that "Moscow Central Ring" is the way to go.
Incidentally, I don't like the new official name, Centraljnoje Koljco, at all, as it is both unclear to the uninitiated (does it refer to a rail line or a highway, for example?) and not even factually correct (the older Ring Line of the Moscow Metro is located entirely within the new "Central Ring", and thus is certainly a lot more "central"). But being the official name, the new name is the one that's going to become the WP:COMMONNAME in all new publications). -- Vmenkov (talk) 01:51, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
- Circle is common in English and official. [1] So as Koltsevaya Line was and being commonly refereed as Circle Line. Elk Salmon (talk) 03:19, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
Stations to be open in December 2016
editAccording to the latest official map (supposedly by ArtSwan), stations not yet in service are Izmaylovo, Andronovka and Khoroshyovo instead of Sokolinaya Gora. Can someone verify the information? Thx -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 05:13, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
- Izmailovo works, Sokolinaya Gora not Elk Salmon (talk) 11:06, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
Merger proposal
editI propose that Moscow Central Circle be merged into Moscow Ring Railway. They're exactly the same Ilyak (talk) 09:35, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
- It was split per consensus. And they are not the same with different purpose. That article is about historical line that was nearly completely demolished and current freight service on track 3. This article is about MKZD infrastructure and Moscow Metro service on tracks 1 and 2. Yamanote Line does have own article. It didn't merge with Shōnan–Shinjuku Line and Keihin-Tōhoku Line just because it runs alongside them. Elk Salmon (talk) 11:04, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose per Elk Salmon. It was already split because they're two different purposes. Northeast Corridor and Northeast Regional might cover the same exact trackage, but they're two distinct entities (with some overlap) and purposes. --Oakshade (talk) 16:00, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
New section: 20th century
editI added a new section, based on a single source cited by the original article. This is in case someone wonders if the material is unsourced. I only cited that source once throughout the section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by StrokeOfMidnight (talk • contribs) 03:51, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
- A link to MK MZD is enough, i think. This atricle is strictly for urban rail/metro line. Elk Salmon (talk) 04:50, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
- Revert my thoughts, a bit of history is ok. Elk Salmon (talk) 07:57, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
- StrokeOfMidnight, this becoming overload again. Keep most history to MK MZD article. This one is strictly for MCC. Elk Salmon (talk) 10:26, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
- Moved info about terrorist attack. though never heard of it, into MK MZD article. Keep History section here as preamble. It doesn't need to list anything that happened through all history of MK MZD. There is an article for that. Header should also be about MCC, not about MK MZD. This literally merging MK MZD article ruining the reason of split. Elk Salmon (talk)
MCC is not a physical railway line, it's just a passenger service of MLRR
editThe definition of the Moscow Central Circle (MCC) as a railway line built alongside the Moscow Little Ring Railway (MLRR) is incorrect, because it is not a physical object with own infrastructure. Unlike a Moscow Metro lines or Berlin S-Bahn lines, which have own physical infrastructure separated from regular railway lines (and also have third rail electrification instead of overhead lines), MCC is just a passenger service (or route) of urban-metro train that partially uses infrastructure of the Moscow Little Ring Railway (2 main tracks, new passenger stations and some tracks of three original stations that used as open-air depots for Lastochka trains). However, all 3 tracks, overhead lines, depots and stations as physical objects are parts of MLRR, and two main tracks with new stations that used by Lastochka trains can be used by freight trains during a nighttime. The similar example of passenger service on a railway line is the Kiev Urban Electric Train, that has own rolling stock and ticketing system, but use tracks of 3 railway directions and hasn't own independent infrastructure, some passenger stations in Kiev used only by the Kiev urban electric train, but as physical objects there are parts of regular railway lines. Another example is the Aeroexpress trains that operates on three directions of Moscow railway - Savyolovkoye (Sheremetyevo Airport), Kievskoye (Vnukovo Airport) and Paveletskoye (Domodedovo Airport). Stations in Sheremetyevo and Vnukovo airports used only by Aeroexpress trains, but as physical objects these stations are parts of Saviolovskoye and Kievskoye directions (railway lines to Savyolovo and Kiev) of Moscow Railway. Another example is Northeast Regional service that operates on Northeast Corridor railway line.
Please read both articles in Russian Wiki - the article about MLRR describes the full history of a railway line (including construction, operations in XX century and 2000-s, detailed description of reconstruction (tracks, bridges, electrification, constructiom of new stations), and operations after it), all original and new stopping points, bridges and some information about freight and passenger operations on line. The MCC contains information about history of former passenger service XX century, projects of urban rail, only basic description of reconstruction of line, detailed descriptions of passenger service and tickets, integration with metro and rolling stock. And that article defines MCC as a passenger service of electric multiple units that operates on MLRR according to the latest sources. So the information about passenger stations and Lastochka trains shouldn't be removed from Moscow Ring Railway article, and this article should be rewritten to define the object correctly. — Xenotron (talk) 10:30, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
- You just provided example Northeast Regional and Northeast Corridor. They split into different articles. This article is about service on tracks 1 and 2. That article is about historical line that nearly entirely demolished and about freight service on track 3. Elk Salmon (talk) 16:01, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
- You aren't right. The article Moscow Ring Railway is not an article just about freight part of line a freight service, it's about the entire railway line as a physical object with all its tracks, freight and passenger stations and other infrastructure, and should contain information about all services that exist on this line - freight and passenger one. The infrastructure of MLRR contains both freight and passenger stations, so the information about new stations must be included in both articles - the article about line (MLRR) and the article about passenger service (MCC). Only a freight service of MLRR was nearly demolished, but not the line itself. The historical line was just reconstructed and upgraded (old tracks and bridges replaced with new, constructed new 3rd track, the line was electrificated, new passenger stations was constructed alongside 2 main tracks) - its reconstruction with a creation of new passenger service was not a construction of a new railway line that separates from historical line. Just compare MLRR article with the article about Northeast Corridor, which describes history of line, infrastructure and all services - Intercity passenger services, Commuter rail and Freight services, not only freight services and freight stations. And the article Northeast Regional describes one of these services (inter-city) in details. The same situation should be with articles about MLRR and MCC: this MCC article should have a detailed desription of passenger service, that MLRR - information about all line as physical object with all history, all infrastructure and short description of both services - passenger and freight. Also, note that the article Northeast Regional uses Infobox rail line, but the Northeast Regional article - Infobox rail service (another infobox). So the MCC article should use Infobox rail service too, like the Russian articles, and the MLRR line should contain description of both services and all infrastructure. Russian articles are also split, but the article about MLRR have a detailed description of all infrastructure and short description of both services, and the article MCC have a detailed description of a modern passenger service and uses another infobox, and the same situation should be on the English wiki. — Xenotron (talk) 18:17, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
- This isn't just reconstruction with track 3 added. It's completely scratch built. All track layout and rail infrastructure is entirely new. Old was demolished. Almost all bridges were demolished except few that has been built during first phase 15 years ago, including one underground station. Per consensus before - this article is about passenger service on scratch built tracks 1 and 2, stations and other infrastructure. That article is about historical MOZD and MK MZD freight service on scratch built tracks 3 with all its infrastructure. MLRR abbriviation isn't correct. It's two distinctive abbreviations MK (Lesser ring/circle) and MZD (Moscow Railways, former company, now a subsidary). Elk Salmon (talk) 07:28, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
- Even after a total reconstruction with a replacement of all infrastructure this railway line remains the same object with the same name (MK MZD), but with a completely new infrastructure, and these works didn't separate one old line to two new lines. I don't know what consensus you mean and where I can read it, but in Russian wiki after a discussion about deletion of the MCC article and keeping it the basic information about passenger service remained in main article and all main information about new stations was duplicated to article about MCC, but not removed from article about MK MZD, because the new stations are parts of MK MZD infrastructure. For passenger service (MCC) the new stations are just points on the route or places where trains have stops, for MK MZD they are physical objects of its infrastructure such as freight stations and all 3 tracks. And the MKMZD line have 2 services - the new passenger service has its own name - MCC, the freight service doesn't. However, the Russian MK MZD article contains only basic information about passenger rolling stock and does not contain information about organization of passenger service, integration with metro and ticketing - all this information and detailed information about rolling stock exits in the MCC article. However, we can see opposed situation about history and reconstruction of line - the MCC article contains only a basic information about it, but the MK MZD contains a detailed information about reconstruction works because the new service was opened after it and the topic of reconstruction is closer to a railway line. Not only the new 3rd track for freight and original stations are parts of ifrastructure of MK MZD, but the 1st and 2nd track and new stations too. Many railway directions of Moscow Railway have 3 or 4 tracks, a half of them mostly used by suburban trains and another ones - by express or freight trains, however all tracks are parts of a single line, and all 2 main tracks and new stations are also part of MK MZD as a direction of Moscow Railway and are in its physical ownership, like airport stations served by Aeroexpress are parts of Kievskoye and Savyolovskoye directions, and they are listed in both articles - article about a direction and about Aeroexpress. In Russian wiki the consensus about content of both MK MZD and MCC articles is simillar to structure of Northeast Corridir and Regional articles, these Russian articles are most detailed among all Wikis, so I can't understand why the article about MK MZD in English wiki does not contain an information about its infrastructure for passenger service if the simillar article about Northeast Corridor on this wiki or the article about MK MZD in Russian does. The consensus about content of these English artiles must be simillar to Russian ones. Xenotron (talk) 15:23, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
- This was nearly complete demolition with completely new redevelopment. When building gets demolished, another gets build on its place. It's a new building. Not just renovation of same building. Again. Almost all stations and service on tracks 1 and 2 are owned by MKZD. MKZD operates service on tracks 1 and 2. Despite owning tracks 1 and 2 Russian Railways is just subcontractor for operation on them, because they have Lastochka trains. Originally it wasn't even Russian Railways, it was CPPK that was chosen, but ED4 trains they ordered didn't suit MKZD needs. This article isn't about directions, it doesn't matter what is there. It's about MCC and stands for completely different purpose than MK MZD article. Again. Yamanote Line, Shōnan–Shinjuku Line and Keihin-Tōhoku Line have own articles as well. Even Keihin-Tōhoku Line itself an integral part of Tohoku Main Line, yet uses rail line infobox as well. Because it doesn't matter. Article and infobox doesn't stand for a physical line, as you call it. They all referred to exclusive or dedicated consumer service. Russian Wiki does have same split as well. Elk Salmon (talk) 10:58, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
- OK, rephrased coping one to one the way from Keihin-Tōhoku Line article. Is that ok now? Elk Salmon (talk) 11:18, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
- Even after a total reconstruction with a replacement of all infrastructure this railway line remains the same object with the same name (MK MZD), but with a completely new infrastructure, and these works didn't separate one old line to two new lines. I don't know what consensus you mean and where I can read it, but in Russian wiki after a discussion about deletion of the MCC article and keeping it the basic information about passenger service remained in main article and all main information about new stations was duplicated to article about MCC, but not removed from article about MK MZD, because the new stations are parts of MK MZD infrastructure. For passenger service (MCC) the new stations are just points on the route or places where trains have stops, for MK MZD they are physical objects of its infrastructure such as freight stations and all 3 tracks. And the MKMZD line have 2 services - the new passenger service has its own name - MCC, the freight service doesn't. However, the Russian MK MZD article contains only basic information about passenger rolling stock and does not contain information about organization of passenger service, integration with metro and ticketing - all this information and detailed information about rolling stock exits in the MCC article. However, we can see opposed situation about history and reconstruction of line - the MCC article contains only a basic information about it, but the MK MZD contains a detailed information about reconstruction works because the new service was opened after it and the topic of reconstruction is closer to a railway line. Not only the new 3rd track for freight and original stations are parts of ifrastructure of MK MZD, but the 1st and 2nd track and new stations too. Many railway directions of Moscow Railway have 3 or 4 tracks, a half of them mostly used by suburban trains and another ones - by express or freight trains, however all tracks are parts of a single line, and all 2 main tracks and new stations are also part of MK MZD as a direction of Moscow Railway and are in its physical ownership, like airport stations served by Aeroexpress are parts of Kievskoye and Savyolovskoye directions, and they are listed in both articles - article about a direction and about Aeroexpress. In Russian wiki the consensus about content of both MK MZD and MCC articles is simillar to structure of Northeast Corridir and Regional articles, these Russian articles are most detailed among all Wikis, so I can't understand why the article about MK MZD in English wiki does not contain an information about its infrastructure for passenger service if the simillar article about Northeast Corridor on this wiki or the article about MK MZD in Russian does. The consensus about content of these English artiles must be simillar to Russian ones. Xenotron (talk) 15:23, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
- This isn't just reconstruction with track 3 added. It's completely scratch built. All track layout and rail infrastructure is entirely new. Old was demolished. Almost all bridges were demolished except few that has been built during first phase 15 years ago, including one underground station. Per consensus before - this article is about passenger service on scratch built tracks 1 and 2, stations and other infrastructure. That article is about historical MOZD and MK MZD freight service on scratch built tracks 3 with all its infrastructure. MLRR abbriviation isn't correct. It's two distinctive abbreviations MK (Lesser ring/circle) and MZD (Moscow Railways, former company, now a subsidary). Elk Salmon (talk) 07:28, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
- You aren't right. The article Moscow Ring Railway is not an article just about freight part of line a freight service, it's about the entire railway line as a physical object with all its tracks, freight and passenger stations and other infrastructure, and should contain information about all services that exist on this line - freight and passenger one. The infrastructure of MLRR contains both freight and passenger stations, so the information about new stations must be included in both articles - the article about line (MLRR) and the article about passenger service (MCC). Only a freight service of MLRR was nearly demolished, but not the line itself. The historical line was just reconstructed and upgraded (old tracks and bridges replaced with new, constructed new 3rd track, the line was electrificated, new passenger stations was constructed alongside 2 main tracks) - its reconstruction with a creation of new passenger service was not a construction of a new railway line that separates from historical line. Just compare MLRR article with the article about Northeast Corridor, which describes history of line, infrastructure and all services - Intercity passenger services, Commuter rail and Freight services, not only freight services and freight stations. And the article Northeast Regional describes one of these services (inter-city) in details. The same situation should be with articles about MLRR and MCC: this MCC article should have a detailed desription of passenger service, that MLRR - information about all line as physical object with all history, all infrastructure and short description of both services - passenger and freight. Also, note that the article Northeast Regional uses Infobox rail line, but the Northeast Regional article - Infobox rail service (another infobox). So the MCC article should use Infobox rail service too, like the Russian articles, and the MLRR line should contain description of both services and all infrastructure. Russian articles are also split, but the article about MLRR have a detailed description of all infrastructure and short description of both services, and the article MCC have a detailed description of a modern passenger service and uses another infobox, and the same situation should be on the English wiki. — Xenotron (talk) 18:17, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
The cost of a train ride at MCC was 3.40 in the early 20th century
editI clarified the part that said "clarification needed". From the same source, the train fare in question was 3.40 rubles.
For this talk page only, I learned from an unrelated source that the monthly salary of a middle-school teacher at the time was 20 rubles. And one could buy a cow for 5, so it's conceivable that few could afford those journeys minimum twice a day. Those few who could had their own transport. A double whammy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by StrokeOfMidnight (talk • contribs) 18:59, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
- Except there was no MCC in early XX century. It was MOZD. Elk Salmon (talk) 11:00, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
Moscow Ring Railway
editIt should be explicitly mentioned (like it is on the other's page), that the Moscow Central Circle service uses the Moscow Ring Railway. Aside from its being pretty standard on transit service pages to list the infrastructure along which a train runs when that infrastructure has a specific name, it also help further prevent confusion between the service and the physical rail line. --Criticalthinker (talk) 18:26, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
- Readded to header. Elk Salmon (talk) 10:59, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
owner/operator/client
editMoscow Metro isn't the client. It's operating the line through MKZD company it controls. Russian Railway is selected subcontractor for that operation services. Russian Railways, though, owning trackage, most platforms and several entrances. Most entrances, station buildings, are owned by MKZD, a Moscow Government company. Elk Salmon (talk) 19:47, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
External links modified (February 2018)
editHello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Moscow Central Circle. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160912060038/https://slovari.yandex.ru/~%D0%BA%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B3%D0%B8/%D0%9C%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5%20%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%86%D1%8B/%D0%9C%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F%20%D0%9E%D0%BA%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F%20%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F%20%D0%B4%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B0/ to http://slovari.yandex.ru/~%D0%BA%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B3%D0%B8/%D0%9C%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5%20%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%86%D1%8B/%D0%9C%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F%20%D0%9E%D0%BA%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F%20%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F%20%D0%B4%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B0/
- Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.rbc.ru/digest/index.shtml?commersant%2F2012%2F09%2F20%2F33771189
- Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.mosgortrans.net/component/content/article/11591
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).
- If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
- If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 03:45, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
New Map
edit@Underlying lk and Sameboat: The map is seem to be for MK MZD, not for MCC. It show non MCC related tracks. Elk Salmon (talk) 20:17, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
- The previous map by Crimson Hades would be perfectly fine. I have no time to learn how to revise the interactive map replaced by Underlying Ik. So maybe we revert his/her edit by now? -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 02:03, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
- I reverted back to the old map. The interactive one is based on OpenStreetMap shape data, so it can't really be revised from here.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 09:28, 6 January 2019 (UTC)