Talk:Mohamed Hadid/Archives/2024

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 December 2023

Mohammed Hadid was born in Palestine and not Israel. It is a very factual thing. No discussion possible. 94.110.87.46 (talk) 12:51, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

 Partly done: since it's unsourced, I removed it (without replacing it with anything). M.Bitton (talk) 15:23, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Undoing this - this was a politicized request and should not have been indulged. Please see talk item above.

Hadid was born after the foundation date of Israel, in a city inside of Israel. Obviously, as the subject’s family fled/left subsequently thereafter, there is a certain discomfort in the subject stating their country of birth as “Israel”, but it does not change the fact they were born in Nazareth after the point it was an Israeli city. That the birth date follows the date of establishment of Israel does not require additional citation than what is already provided. Mistamystery (talk) 22:58, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

If you believe that he was born in Israel, then you're welcome to provide the reliable sources that say so and seek consensus for its inclusion (given that there are sources that state Palestine as his place of birth). Also, please remember that is a WP:BLP and therefore, the quality of the sources needs be second to none. M.Bitton (talk) 14:19, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

It’s not a question of belief. Nazareth has been a constituent part of Israel since July 1948. There has been no change nor dispute in status since then.

You consistently are responding to (and legitimizing) people trying to politicize the page and it’s inappropriate and tendentious. The link was only placed there because people kept on vandalizing it with disruptive edits trying to jam in political edits.

The only dispute here is whether or not Nazareth was Israel when Hadid was born. Nazareth became an Israeli city in July 1948 (as was in the link provided you deleted), and Hadid was born in November 1948. There is nothing in dispute here outside of people consistently trying to vandalize the page. Mistamystery (talk) 17:37, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

You consistently are responding to (and legitimizing) people trying to politicize the page and it’s inappropriate and tendentious. whom exactly are you accusing of inappropriate and tendentious editing? M.Bitton (talk) 18:16, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 January 2024

Place of birth incorrect, change "Nazareth, Isreal" to "Nazareth, Palestine"

He was born before the occupation by isreal Kent.nelson.3 (talk) 13:53, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

 Done removed as unsourced. From what I can tell, only low quality sources mention the country of birth. M.Bitton (talk) 14:15, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Is there an argument against a new RfC regarding changing the birthplace from (now Israel) to Israel

When he was born, the city has been part of the Israeli state for multiple months. While the older RfC decided on a pseudo-stable state, I do not believe that the bar for historical context has been met. In addition, the other RfC is already old enough that a new one should be made.

Therefore, I would suggest a new RfC that addresses the question of whether or not (now Israel) should be changed to (Israel) on the place of birth. FortunateSons (talk) 01:33, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Footnote 13 for BLP

Per this, we should avoid using Mondoweiss for BLP. As it’s additionally accentuates this criticism, I would be in favor of removal here. FortunateSons (talk) 08:21, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

The source is just repeating what he said. There is nothing in it that cannot be verified. M.Bitton (talk) 12:16, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Then let’s cite it as aboutself from social media? FortunateSons (talk) 12:17, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

There is no need to do that given that the source is not deprecated. M.Bitton (talk) 12:18, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

that it should either not be used at all — or used with great caution — for biographies of living people per close, this is a highly contentious topic, and we have a better source. FortunateSons (talk) 12:21, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

It's used with great caution (everything in it is verifiable). M.Bitton (talk) 12:23, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

The aboutself here is the best source, and Mondoweiss distinctly isn’t. FortunateSons (talk) 12:26, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

I disagree. M.Bitton (talk) 12:36, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

With which part? The restriction for ABOUTSELF are lower than those now applicable to MW, and the use of MW is more contentious. FortunateSons (talk) 12:39, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

With your analysis. Since there is nothing in the secondary source that isn't verifiable, I see no reason to either remove it or discuss it ad nauseam. M.Bitton (talk) 12:42, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Innisfree987 (talk) 17:54, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Notice of Noticeboard Discussion here FortunateSons (talk) 18:19, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Muslim family

No, M.Bitton, I am not disputing that he is a Muslim but none of these sources mentions that he or his family is Muslim so that statement needs a new citation. Note the page is in the American Muslims category so this needs to be verified in the article and currently isn't. I presume it's easy to find a source for this, but in the meantime we shouldn't abuse the footnotes. BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:54, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

We don't need to source common knowledge. M.Bitton (talk) 15:57, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

That's not my understanding of our WP:VERIFY policy. Anyway, there's a bunch of possible sources e.g. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] These all say he's Palestinian and Muslim (although I can't find a source that doesn't look like it's copied and pasted from this article which describes his family as Palestinian Muslim). BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:22, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

The policy says that everything must be "attributable", which is the case in this instance. M.Bitton (talk) 16:27, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Right, so we need to attribute the claim to a reliable source, no? Because at the moment we don't. BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:14, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

We don't: that's what makes the difference between a claim that is easily "attributable" to a source (such as this one or the fact that most people have five digits on each hand) and one that isn't, i.e., a claim that needs to be "attributed" to RS. That's why I asked whether you're disputing this simple fact. M.Bitton (talk) 15:24, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand. You're saying that WP policy is that our content could in theory be attributed but we don't need to bother to actually attribute? Instead of citing a source we can encourage readers to use google? BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:32, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

That's right. We don't usually attribute common knowledge to RS, otherwise, our articles will become unreadable. That said, you're welcome to add one if you deem it necessary. M.Bitton (talk) 15:34, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Request for comment on place of birth

How should the place of birth of Mohamed Hadid be described? Prior RfC

1. Nazareth (now Israel)
2. Nazareth (Israel)
3. Nazareth (Palestine)

FortunateSons (talk) 08:15, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Comment I have excluded all factually inaccurate versions per the last RfC. Comments (with either vote) may include a suggested description as listed in the last close. My reason for the new rfc is the the old one is - well, old - and not stable. FortunateSons (talk) 08:19, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

I have no idea what it is exactly that you excluded, but I added option 3 since RfCs are supposed to present all the possible options to the readers. M.Bitton (talk) 11:51, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Extended content

Per the RFC closure, as there was no Palestinian state and the mandate had been dissolved months before his birth. FortunateSons (talk) 13:35, 20 March 2024 (UTC) This is a new RfC and as such, it has to be neutral and present all the options to the readers. M.Bitton (talk) 13:41, 20 March 2024 (UTC) That option would not be supported by RS, as there is neither a state nor a mandate at the time of birth. What could work is Palestine (region), but that is a vague term considering the area was and has been under continuous control by Israel since months before his birth. FortunateSons (talk) 13:44, 20 March 2024 (UTC) That's your opinion. M.Bitton (talk) 13:45, 20 March 2024 (UTC) The date of the dissolution of the mandate, his date of birth and the lack of a Palestinian state during his DOB are facts. The vagueness is indeed my opinion FortunateSons (talk) 13:47, 20 March 2024 (UTC) Please refrain from bludgeoning the process. M.Bitton (talk) 13:48, 20 March 2024 (UTC) Typically, this means making the same argument over and over, to different people. Excluding our votes (and the actions associated with the creation of the RfC) we both have the same number of comments and I only responded to you (after you responded to my comment). Disagreement is not bludgeoning. However, as the issue at hand is unlikely to find consensus here, I will disengage as long as no one continues the discussion with new arguments. On that note, To falsely accuse someone of bludgeoning is considered incivil, and should be avoided. FortunateSons (talk) 13:59, 20 March 2024 (UTC) You are clearly BLUDGEONING the process in an attempt to force your POV in a section that is supposed to be about the RfC's structure. M.Bitton (talk) 14:05, 20 March 2024 (UTC) He is not bludgeoning the process I see valid argue ments or pov pushing please be civil and respect other editors opinions •Cyberwolf•talk? 19:28, 20 March 2024 (UTC) Making a case for their !Vote in the lead section of the RfC is not just bludgeoning, it's a form of system gaming to avoid the spirit of community consensus. This is basic common sense. M.Bitton (talk) 19:33, 20 March 2024 (UTC) Not really as if theoretically I was born in new York and it became under control of Canada I would be born in New York still and would still be a United States citizen by birth and I see no major correlation between the vote and the comment •Cyberwolf•talk? 19:38, 20 March 2024 (UTC) Here we go again, another editor making a case for their !vote in the lead section of the RfC. I rest my case. M.Bitton (talk) 19:40, 20 March 2024 (UTC) nah you can’t read I am explaining why he removed a option. My vote has nothing to do with this •Cyberwolf•talk? 12:39, 21 March 2024 (UTC) You're making a case for their !vote (because you've been WP:CANVASSED). Anyway, what needed to be said has been said, so please refrain from banging on about it. M.Bitton (talk) 15:42, 21 March 2024 (UTC) I have not been canvassed also I’m not making a case for their vote specifically but making a case for the removal of the option•Cyberwolf•talk? 15:58, 21 March 2024 (UTC) I wasn't asking. I know for a fact that you have been canvassed, that's what's preventing you from actually spending some time reading what I wrote. M.Bitton (talk) 16:03, 21 March 2024 (UTC) I have actually read your writing it was not canvassing I was simply curious and felt like looking into the conversation and saw no bludgeoning or pov pushing•Cyberwolf•talk? 16:09, 21 March 2024 (UTC) Keep repeating that to yourself. I'm done here. M.Bitton (talk) 16:13, 21 March 2024 (UTC) why are you so hostile why can’t you just talk it out with out accusing me I just simply don’t understand why you avoid conversation?•Cyberwolf•talk? 16:17, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Votes

• Option 2 is factually accurate and is therefore the better choice. The city had been under effective control for months before his birth, was no longer militarily contested and remains under Israeli control. There were no other countries or governments in the area during that time, and the mandate had been dissolved prior to his birth. Therefore, the birthplace is Israel. FortunateSons (talk) 08:29, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
• Neither, why even mention that it's Israel at all nowadays. Just link to Nazareth and leave as is.--Ortizesp (talk) 14:10, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

  Because it is the common practice in Wikipedia to mention the country of birth, and not just the city. Vegan416 (talk) 23:41, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

• Neither. I agree with Ortizesp. Nazareth doesn't even need a mention of Israel. _signed, SpringProof ^talk 05:29, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1, per previous consensus. I strongly oppose 2 given that there are sources that say Palestine and the fact that it's what the BLP subject says about his country of birth. M.Bitton (talk) 11:18, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
• Neither - just a link to Nazareth suffices. nableezy - 17:18, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
• Neither as using just Nazareth would stop future fighting hopefully •Cyberwolf•talk? 19:30, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
• Neither, so we avoid fighting over it in the future. It was a controversial time around there. But I believe Option 2 is the most factual, as he was born right after Israel was established, and Nazareth is located in the part of Israel where the international consensus is that... it's Israel, no qualifier. CVDX (talk) 19:49, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2. He was born in November 1948, and on that date Nazareth was already part of Israel. Vegan416 (talk) 23:39, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Politics

@M.bitton what BLP issues exactly? Incident was widely covered (including by numerous RS) and he also addressed the matter publicly. Mistamystery (talk) 13:23, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Words like "reportedly" and "allegedly" (used in the source that you added) are there for a reason. M.Bitton (talk) 13:27, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes except, as per source, he confirmed said alleged behavior in his apology.

Re: politics, it matches section titles on his daughters’ pages. They are likewise not politicians. What would you propose the appropriate section title? Activism? Controversy? Mistamystery (talk) 13:52, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

As I said, words like "reportedly" and "allegedly" (used in the source that you added) are there for a reason. Besides, Wikipedia is not a newspaper. M.Bitton (talk) 13:57, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Ok, so how about:

On April 20, 2024, it was revealed that Hadid had reportedly been sending United States congressman Ritchie Torres "racist" and "homophobic" messages via Instagram in response to Torres' support of Israel. Hadid subsequently issued an apology.

Mistamystery (talk) 21:13, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Not "revealed", per WP:CLAIM: it undermines the point of "reportedly". I'd follow the source: "apologized after allegedly sending". So:

"In April 2024, it was reported that Hadid had apologized after allegedly sending United States congressman Ritchie Torres "racist" and "homophobic" messages via Instagram in response to Torres' support of Israel." BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:41, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Fine by me. Mistamystery (talk) 17:05, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't see how something that is described as "reportedly" and "allegedly" belongs in a BLP article, especially given the fact that it has no relevance whatsoever to the notability of the living person. M.Bitton (talk) 17:17, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

This made national and international news (including RS), and his notability and coverage in recent years is very much centered on his Palestinian identity and activism (as is of his daughters, which each have their own according sections pertaining to this such topic).

If it doesn't violate BLP on their pages, it most certainly does not violate it here. Mistamystery (talk) 17:28, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

There is a massive difference between what's news worthy and what is encyclopedic.

If it doesn't violate BLP on their pages that's a very big if (I haven't checked their pages and don't intend to). M.Bitton (talk) 17:32, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

This is not about what I think about him or his daughters. It's plain fact that matters connected to his ancestry as a Palestinian are central to him (and are already well represented elsewhere on the page).

Additionally, his reported (and well addressed on the wiki) connections to the SAAR Foundation also make his notability surrounding middle eastern affairs prominent and notable. Mistamystery (talk) 17:39, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Claims to which "reportedly" and "allegedly" apply are not "facts", least of encyclopedic ones. That's a fact! M.Bitton (talk) 17:42, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

"Born"

Why does it say in the "Born" category in the table "Nazareth (now Israel)" if when he was born it was already part of Israel*??

*See Operation Dekel

עמית לונן (talk) 10:45, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

See Talk:Mohamed Hadid/Archives/2018#Request_for_comment. I think that if we can’t say it was Mandatory Palestine (or anything else), then it was Israel, and the “now” parenthetical makes no sense without an implied “then”. That consensus is six years old, so if you want to initiate a discussion, read through that RfC and comment here responding to the arguments you read for the current infobox text. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 16:32, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Safed Jewish family story has some issues

Hadid's claim that his family lost their home in Safed seems complicated by the fact that he is from Nazareth, which is still an Arab city. I also am not aware of Polish Jewish refugees in Safed. This article casts doubt on his claims. This profile presents a different account and doesn't mention any such Jewish family. I've added text to attribute this story to an Instagram post he made, in the meantime. Zanahary (talk) 02:04, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

There are clear discrepancies in MH's family story that have yet to be properly looked into (I am still perplexed as to how his 1980s story of his family leaving of their own accord out of a desire to not live under Israelis transformed into a 2015 tale of being kicked out by Jewish refugees who locked them out of their own house). I'm sure time will tell.

That said, to clear one item up: Hadid was born at his grandmother's home in Nazareth. His family's home was in Safed. Mistamystery (talk) 02:19, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Ah, gotcha Zanahary (talk) 02:27, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I have two major issues with the quote as is stands in the second paragraph on "personal life"

1) the quote is attributed to Hadid's self published Instagram reel, but cites Mondoweiss. I believe the citation should be to his self published source which is the primary source, and which does not imply editorial review or fact checking

2) Reasonable critisism should be added (e.g. "MH was born after the family left Safed", or "This description does not fit with any historical facts about Muslim and Jew interactions at that time")

IMHO the quote should be removed for lacking encyclopedic value being self-published hearsay. Refael Ackermann (talk) 13:08, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

1. MW reports that he wrote these things and attributes to his Instagram

2. Do you have a reliable source criticizing the story’s historicity? ꧁Zanahary꧂ 15:27, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

My mom. And not in the meme sense. My mom was born 1940 in Safed, her father lived there all his life, and my uncle still lives there. No Jewish holocaust refugees lived in Safed 45-48. Muslims preformed a massacre on the Jew in 1929. Muslims initiated civil war in 47 with a pogrom on the Jewish minority. They later evacuated on the order of their leader. Palmach garrison was 12 men with one mortar (Davidka).

Obviously I'm looking for more written sources.

Meanwhile since the primary (hearsay) source, IMHO it should be the only citation https://www.instagram.com/celebrities4palestine/reel/C7ATjyINY5Z/ Refael Ackermann (talk) 14:38, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

That’s all quite interesting! Unfortunately, we can’t cite undocumented testimony as a primary source, nor can we synthesize unrelatedly published documents of history to present readers with an original analysis of any narrative’s comparative historicity—we have to follow reliable secondary sources. The best we have is MondoWeiss, which is not good. Maybe there’s a discussion to be had about removing the story altogether.

As for removing the MW source, this argument would have us remove every secondary report from Wikipedia. There is no reason to do so. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 18:46, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oral history is a valid form of historical documentantion, especially when it comes to oppressed people who were not able to preserve physical history, or did not have the institutional power to make their voices heard. it does still need to be treated with skeptisism of course, but that is when we can turn to historians like ilan pappe who have documented so many stories like the hadid's and rafael's. this is how you do social history. Theoisnotalive (talk) 06:51, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

We aren't social historians, we are an encyclopedia. We cannot cite unpublished oral accounts directly. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 06:54, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

it being a majority arab population city doesnt mean that his family wasn't still expelled from the area; it is still within israel's borders. this is despite the fact that it was initially within the arab state border under the partition plan. israel wanted the city, and in order to do that and make room for jewish settlers they expelled significant amounts of palestinians from their homes. the fact that israel failed to achieve a majority jewish demographic doesn't change this history.

you can read about it in the wikipedia article: Nazareth#Israeli period Theoisnotalive (talk) 06:49, 6 August 2024 (UTC)