Talk:Miss Lucy had a baby

Original research

please review again. I think I improved it, and the orig research can be removed. פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 14:59, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Folk/False etymology

This article I believe is entirely false - I have checked out the references provided and they don't seem to support the argument about this song mocking emancipated African-American culture. Unless anyone has any strong thoughts about it, I would suggest this whole article be deleted and merged into https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Miss_Susie. Happy for others to discuss or prove me wrong. Nomenklatura44 (talk) 09:35, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

This article will likely see a spike in views over the next couple of days due to a reference to Miss Susie's steamboat in the popular (particularly among geeks) webcomic xkcd ([1]). At first glance, the article struck me as a hoax, but given User:Pashute's long editing history, I now suspect WP:OR and WP:SYNTH at worst, and I am willing to entertain the possibility that it is legitimate. We need to examine the references provided. -- ToE 09:24, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

References given appear to be provided in support of the conclusion that "emancipated African American culture is mocked" by the song, but none of the WP:RS's actually seem to present that conclusion itself. This would suggest that the conclusion is Original Research. I've removed that material from the article, but I am also opening a discussion below on the sources, and if a good RS can be provided which arrives at this conclusion, then we should restore it. -- ToE 09:39, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

it definitely is not a hoax, and I could spend more time discussing each of the sources I gave. I must agree that it was not easy to find reliable resources and that I did have many unreliable resources most of them blogs independent of each other but that would be orig research which I tried to avoid. I was mainly concerned with finding a good source on the lady with the alligator purse being a social worker, and here at least I succeeded. The nickname tiny Tim for Timuel black can be found to the best of my memory in several sources and the lack of mentioning songs in the refs I take as sarcasm on your part.

So: I don't intend to spend more time on this, you can do whatever you want with it, I enjoyed working on it and wish anybody who wants to take it further or backwards to do so with no objections on my part. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pashute (talk • contribs) 17:47, 11 January 2014‎ (UTC)

Hi User:Pashute. I accept your good faith in editing this article and I recognize the amount of work that you put into it, which is why I have been conducting a full review of the references. I have been reading the references in their entirety, looking for two things: Does the reference support the sentence which cites it? Does the reference support your central premise that "emancipated African American culture is mocked" by the song. I was certainly not attempting to be sarcastic by noting the lack of mentioning the songs in the refs; I was only attempting to be complete. Even if the individual elements in support of your premise were supported by the references, the conclusion must also be stated in some reliable source; else we are guilty of synthesis (see WP:SYNTH), which is a form of original research (see WP:OR).

I understand from your comment that you did not originate this thesis, but initially read it somewhere else. If we can find a reliable source for the premise then we can do something with it, but none of the references that were cited (even the extensive mudcat discussion of the rhyme's meaning and origin) appear to speak of it. Source which do not meet our WP:RS criteria can't be cited in the article, but they may prove useful in research, pointing editors in new directions where reliable sources might be found. Do you have any references at all which explicitly state that this children's rhyme mocks emancipated African American culture? -- ToE 12:05, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

In fact, the Mudcat discussion explicitly rejected that idea (which was only 2 people saying it's what they had understood because of particular social workers in their neighborhoods) and Tiny Tim was much more likely to refer to the Dickens character &c. than any racist caricature (and Sonny Jim preceded him in any case), just as the woman with the alligator bag is more likely to represent a healer or Susan Anthony. — LlywelynII 16:03, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Here, I was going to tease you for thinking this page would get a spike from something mentioning the other version of the song but looks like you were right: nothing like the torrent over at Miss Susie but still a sizable bump. Good fisking below, as well. — LlywelynII 16:12, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. As stated I don't have a good source for this although I feel the evidence was compelling. Of England did not think so.

The article as currently written is worthless IMHO for WP. פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 18:12, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

An analysis of references

The most recent version of this article arguing that the "emancipated African American culture is mocked" by the song gives seven references, a few wikilinks, and one external link in support of that conclusion. An analysis of those references follows. -- ToE 10:45, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Reference #3 -- Lucy Authorine

A 1956 Pittsburgh Post-Gazette article [2] is provided as reference for the statement:

The name and song were referred to in a 1956 dispute about the acceptance of Lucy Authorine, an African American young woman, to the University of Alabama.

The newspaper discusses Authorine Lucy's (not "Lucy Authorine") plans to reattempt admission into the UofA in the fall. It refers to her as "Miss Authorine Lucy" in the caption, "Authorine Lucy" in the lead sentence, and "Miss Lucy" in the remainder of the article and in the headline, "Miss Lucy To Renew Effort in Fall / Expelled Negro Co-ed Still Hopes To Enter U. of Ala". There is no mention of any song (either Miss Lucy Long or Miss Lucy had a baby), though the article does mention that Lucy recorded a statement for the Voice of America that she had not written an anti-American letter as was reported by North Vietnam's Communist radio. -- ToE 10:45, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Beyond which source, this song long predates that Lucy. — LlywelynII 16:03, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Reference #4 -- Uncle Tom And Tiny Tim: Some Reflections On The Cripple As Negro

This 1969 article from The American Scholar is cited as reference for:

Tiny Tim as 'Miss Lucy' also mocks the African American short common names, such as Jim (the slave in Tom Sawyer) and Tom (in Uncle Tom's Cabin).

The length or character of African American names is not discussed anywhere in that article, though it does make a passing reference to Black patients at a Harlem hospital who nursed a "hard-core resistance to all the social workers, doctors and nurses who first-named them." (The theme of nurses, doctors, and social workers is repeated several times in the essay, paralleling the doctor, nurse, and lady with the alligator purse of the song.) The article's Tiny Tim is not the son of Lucy but of Bob Cratchit. -- ToE 12:36, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Reference #5 -- The Jenny Morrison Memorial Lecture, 2012

This reference, is provided in support of the statement:

Miss Lucy calls the "white" team, consisting of the Doctor, Nurse, and Social worker, with the "alligator purse".

is provided as:

About the Miss Lucy rhyme on a lecture at the Australian College of Social Work: "How not to appear as a social worker".

The 2012 JMM Lecture starts with Professor Jan Carter recollecting on times in the past when she had met Jenny Morrison, leading to:

We met again, a few years later when I came from the National Institute of Social Work in London, to speak at the National Child Protection Conference in Brisbane in 1983. I don’t remember much about this but Robert reminded me that I quoted some poems illustrating child neglect and abuse and one of these was memorable for Jenny.

In came the doctor

In came the nurse

In came the lady, with the alligator purse

The context of this is lost —but I think I was trying to say, by the last line, how not to appear as a social worker in a children’s hospital in child protection!

There is no further mention of the song, as Professor Carter continues with the main subject of her lecture, titled On Character: Some ideas on its place in contemporary social work. -- ToE 18:10, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

The reference is for "the lady with the alligator purse", understood to be the social worker. Which is clearly understood so, in the lecture. פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 12:17, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Reference #7 -- mudcat.org

The link [3] is to a thread on mudcat.org, a "Traditional Music and Folklore Collection and Community" discussion board. Such a site does not satisfy Wikipedia's criteria for reliable sources and should not be included. It may, however, be a useful resource for editors who use it as a springboard for further research. The thread, which does discuss this song, is provided as reference for the statement:

According to folklore, bubbles stuck in the babies throat may refer to symptoms of Black Diphtheria, and the bathtub is a version changed for children.

The thread does propose that "bubbles in his throat" refers to a symptom of diphtheria. There is no mention in either the thread or our Diphtheria article of "Black Diphtheria". -- ToE 12:00, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Nowhere in that long thread discussing the rhyme is there any mention of a mocking of (or even a connection to) African American culture, other than a post at the end disagreeing with the Wikipedia article and suggesting that the WP article's author had misinterpreted the mudcat thread. -- ToE 05:12, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

The reference was for "bubbles in his throat" being diphtheria.

Black Diphtheria is another name for the sickness, mentioned in various other sources, that I preferred not to bring. The addition of "black" was because that was how I found it originally. I looked up the illness (black diphtheria), but only found "Diphtheria" and linked to it. The double checked and found that its an alias for the same illness. פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 12:17, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

See also -- Chrysoblephus gibbiceps

• Chrysoblephus gibbiceps A fish commonly called Miss Lucy - with Negroid like features including puffed lips and a tall flat forehead. Lives off the shores of South Africa.

Our article does say that this fish is called 'Miss Lucy' along the Port Elizabeth coast, but it has other regional nicknames elsewhere in South Africa. Neither the article nor its sources indicate that the name has its origins in American folk culture. -- ToE 01:41, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

It is a reference showing that "Miss Lucy" is a nickname, in the English language, for a woman with Negroid like features. Your contesting, that it may be disconnected from the American culture, is of course correct, but the link is still relevant in my eyes, if I ever find the original that I based my premise on. פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 12:17, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

External link -- Timuel Black

This link to a 2012 Chicago Sun-Times article [4] is provided with the text:

Tim (Timuel D.) Black, a known African American rights advocate and historian from Chicago, nicknamed 'Tiny Tim'

but the article does not include the word "Tiny" and gives no indication that Black even goes by the nickname "Tim". There is no mention of any song in the article. -- ToE 11:26, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

There are many mentions of him being nicknamed Tim (on other sites) but I definitely got this one wrong about the "Tiny". Looking back at my notes, I see that פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 12:17, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Music Notation

I noted this on the Miss Susie talk page but it looks like the music notation here is incorrect. I don't have great notation software but I can cobble together a draft soon. The first line should end G-A-A#-B (and end on the dominant), then the second line uses B's instead of C's but ends as written. Drewbo19 (talk) 18:19, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

There have actually been several tunes for the song and this one has obviously been published. If you'd like to include notation for a particular version, it would be best if you had a published RS or at the very least a single recorded version (e.g., on Youtube) that gave the time and location of the usage, that you were transcribing. Don't remove this one as "incorrect". [edit: Well, nevermind: it looks like this was just user-created and might be "wrong". Still, kindly have a source for yours before replacing it.] — LlywelynII 16:06, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

If it's disputed and unsourced, it ought not remain in the article. Where original research is concerned, tenuous conclusions drawn from well researched data are one thing; inaccurate representations of that data are quite another. Ibadibam (talk) 04:15, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

The notation is correct with a version familiar to me and can be heard in old records and on YouTube. There are other versions of course.פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 18:12, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

I would like to recognize the hard work that Pashute has put into producing the notation. Unfortunately, one person's transcription of one version of the tune gives undue weight to that version, and is original research. Until someone can find published notation from reliable sources giving due weight to all major variations, we'll do better to omit notation from this article. That said, an external link to an online score would be helpful and appropriate. Ibadibam (talk) 18:19, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

What are "all major variations" the difference is in two notes. How many variations do you know. Put the picture back and just write: ONE OF THE VARIATIONS. If you want I can make any other variations you wish. Just ask me. But not if I feel your just taking it off for no real good reason.

More importantly: I think the original version that I had up and which Drwbo19 contested was from Miss Suzie (not my work) and I had now made and added this one, after seeing that the one on Miss Suzie was COMPLETELY off. I'm not sure he is contesting the one I recently put up at all.

פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 01:03, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

I have no idea what the major variations are; I would look to a reliable source to learn that information and find well attested transcriptions. Anything I might produce on my own wouldn't be worthy of inclusion on Wikipedia (per WP:OR).

You persuade me that it's worth giving an example. I'd suggest we go as close to the source material as possible by including an audio sample. This composition is primarily part of an oral tradition, after all. Ibadibam (talk) 01:46, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Further versions and sources

See also Talk:Miss Susie had a steamboat, which includes several versions of this song and sources for article expansion. — LlywelynII 16:06, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Another variation

No time to look for sources now, but the version I remember ran in part:

... had a baby who was sick, sick, sick.
So she called for the doctor to come quick, quick, quick.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough 18:03, 3 December 2020 (UTC).

A cursory internet search suggests you have partially recalled an unrelated rhyme, "Miss Polly had a dolly". Ibadibam (talk) 00:26, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

As I remember it (in the US) it included

The Doctor said it was Measles

The Nurse said it was mumps

The Lady said it was Chicken Pox

With the Alligator Purse

Up came the water

Up came the soap

Up came the bathtub,

that wouldn't go down his throat. Mikeymo1741 (talk) 19:08, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

This is substantially similar to the final version in the article, except that version rhymes. Ibadibam (talk) 21:02, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

I Have a Little Dreidel

Same melody as I Have a Little Dreidel?