Talk:Meja massacre

Forces

This is a vague but nevertheless collective term which covers police, paramilitary and army units. As such, to refer to "Serb forces" for the FRY period in light of the known facts is no different to referring to English troops simply because we know the entity involved is the Yorkshire Regiment. It still goes down as British forces. For editors who use the all too common and sickening cliche to push their propaganda, "stick to sources", perhaps they too should stick to the more reliable sources of listing the country of which Serbia was a part. If they cannot familiarise themselves with these facts, they are wasting everybody's time here at WP because the community has no use for them. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 05:08, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes there are sources which use colloquial and non-encyclopedic term "Serb forces" when referring to the forces of FRY. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:33, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

• Howard Ball of VU: Stocchi is under no illusions that he can provide a complete accounting of Kosovo's dead. So far his team has recovered the remains of just a handful of the 500 men and boys pulled out of a convoy and massacred on April 27, 1999, by Serb police and paramilitaries near Meja.. Btw even the early reports that hadn't been based on thorough investigation made the distinction like HRW which attributes the massacre to "Serbian police and paramilitaries, as well as Yugoslav soldiers". --— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 11:17, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

This is absolutely fine. If we can keep everything this way on related articles then we can move away from this ongoing issue and never have to look back or discuss the obvious. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 17:17, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

We will continue to have an "ongoing issue" as long as you try to rewrite history. Sources generally say "Serb". Our articles should reflect what independent sources say; you should stop inserting your own version of events. bobrayner (talk) 10:20, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

@Bobrayner: I think that there are no "we" in this case. Everybody here agreed to make distinction between different armed units. Only you "will continue to have an "ongoing issue"".--Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:54, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

And with regards my "inserting own version of events", if you want to play at denialism, start from the top - nominate Federal Republic of Yugoslavia for deletion on account of the fact that your bible does not recognise the entity, and see how far your "independent sources" support your nomintation. If you succeed, I will take time to help you dismantle every mentuon of FRY across Wikipedia and change it to Serb. Until then, kindly confine yourself to topics in which you comprehend the sources. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 14:22, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. We should always rely on what the sources say. Synthesis is not allowed, and in this case sources specifically say Serb with VJ (i.e. Yugoslav) forces giving more of an assisting role. This is a critical element due to the way the command structure worked in Serbia and Yugoslavia, although the case could be made that Yugoslav forces were also more or less exclusively Serb whether in the individual low-level membeship or in the largely non-existing participation of Montenegro in the war effort. --Arianit (talk) 15:25, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

If you disagree with the facts that is up to you, as for synthesis not being allowed - you've taken the words out of my mouth. army-Yugoslav, paramilitary-Serb. Forces? VAGUE. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 15:33, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

I see where your confusion is. Force can also be police, not justy Army. --Arianit (talk) 15:45, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Not my confusion, everyone's! Forces can be anything, even fire fighters for that matter. Your latest revision is all right by me. I just reduced the load from the next line by merging the things. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 15:53, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

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The victims as a whole were not catholics.

The victims of the massacre of meja were not as a whole catholics therefore the information in the infobox stating that the targets were catholic albanians is simply wrong and i challenge anyone here to proof me wrong. Infact, the majority of the victims were regular albanian muslims, who were temporarly staying in Meja because they were on route to Albania, fleeing from their villages.

• A look at the grave and thumbstones suggests the following, the catholic victims have a cross on their thumbstone, while non-catholics have the albanian double headed-eagle symbol on it. Those with the cross are the minority of the graves there. • An arab documentary team visited meja and remaining family members in 2006, they also mention at the minute 33:10 that the majority of the victims were, like the majority of the puplation in kosovo, non-catholics, meaning muslims. Link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkJkRLRJ_IU&rco=1

• The inhabitants of the village told the court that refugees from 17 other regions had gathered in Meja.

"Martin Pnishi, a farmer from Meja, testified about the massacre at a trial at the ICTY in 2006. From the window of his house, he said he could see large number of Kosovo Albanians coming towards Meja after fleeing their homes, as the village was on the way to the Albanian border, where they were headed to seek safety. “In this convoy, there were people from 17 villages,” he told the Hague court." Source: https://balkaninsight.com/2020/04/27/massacre-in-meja-evidence-of-serbian-officers-involvement-ignored/ or https://www.icty.org/x/cases/djordjevic/trans/en/090629IT.htm Page 6552.

• My last and most meaningful objetive source will be a court ruling by the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia against serbian militia men that were persecuted for the involvements in the war crimes in Meja. At page 402 and 403 the names of the victims are listened and it is clearly recogniseable that only around 30% have catholic albanian names, while the rest have non-catholic names, i.e muslim albanian names. Link: https://www.icty.org/x/cases/djordjevic/tjug/en/110223_djordjevic_judgt_en.pdf

Furthermore, the source that is right now being linked to the "the targets were catholic albanians" statement does not at any time make the claim that these victims were catholics. Actually it says "... ethnic Albanian men between the ages of 16 and 60...". The catholic term was fabricated here on this article. Please see for yourself. Link: https://www.refworld.org/reference/annualreport/usdos/2000/en/91574 KazaziShkodra (talk) 16:47, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Your first two "sources" are not relevant whatsoever because the first one is overgeneralization based on a visual observation and not based on facts, so its a worthless assumption. For the second one it's the same case, the creator of the documentary provides no source for his claim that "there were mose Muslim graves", which wouldnt track with the report that you mentioned in the third point which says that "The Kosovo Albanian inhabitants in that area were predominantly Catholic." (page 382) As for the third claim, thats an assumption AGAIN because people can convert to Christianity while having non-Christian names, which is probably the case. Albaniandemocraticnolist (talk) 14:21, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Dear Albaniandemocraticnolist,

If the two sources I cite at the beginning are irrelevant in your view, I would like to see sources from you that clearly state that all or most of the massacre victims were Catholic. There is not a single one, only that the village of Meja is Catholic. Which is misleading, because anyone who has studied the massacre knows that Meja was a gathering point for refugees from MANY OTHER REGIONS. Which unfortunately were victims of the massacre. How many times is it necessary to emphasize this point?

Well, in your opinion, it is an assumption to determine religion by name. This is only said by someone who does not know the zeitgeist of the Albanian population in ex-Yugoslav countries. Religious names were the norm until 1970, and for many it still is today. Keep in mind, that many victims were born before 1970, as said in the article. Finally, your explanation that they are converts to Catholicism who still had their old Muslim names is very far-fetched. That is really nothing more than one and the only assertion here. I can't believe that you suggest something like that. KazaziShkodra (talk) 22:21, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

I literally did, you are ignoring the report that you yourself cited. In page 382 of this report, it says that "The Kosovo Albanian inhabitants in that area were predominantly Catholic." I am citing this report because it is the only relevant one, your point about the names is wholly irrelevant because as i said that has no bearing on their faith. Purely subjective response debunked by your own citation. Albaniandemocraticnolist (talk) 09:40, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Meant to cite this https://www.icty.org/x/cases/djordjevic/tjug/en/110223_djordjevic_judgt_en.pdf. Albaniandemocraticnolist (talk) 09:45, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Notice how you in a very impudent manner try to ignore that many refugees from other gathered in Meja. Refugees from other regions that are not predominantly Catholic

"Martin Pnishi, a farmer from Meja, testified about the massacre at a trial at the ICTY in 2006. From the window of his house, he said he could see large number of Kosovo Albanians coming towards Meja after fleeing their homes, as the village was on the way to the Albanian border, where they were headed to seek safety. “In this convoy, there were people from 17 villages,” he told the Hague court."

Source: https://balkaninsight.com/2020/04/27/massacre-in-meja-evidence-of-serbian-officers-involvement-ignored/ or https://www.icty.org/x/cases/djordjevic/trans/en/090629IT.htm Page 6552.

The "original" inhabitants, of course, remain predominantly Catholic. I think that is not hard to understand, unless you don't want to for whatever reason. KazaziShkodra (talk) 15:05, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

The report was written for the time of the massacre. What you're saying is not proof whatsoever, as no religious demographics are given for the people from the other villages, we dont even know how many people from other villages took refuge in Meja. Albaniandemocraticnolist (talk) 11:41, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

That the refugees from the other villages are not also Catholic is a pretty ridiculous thesis. Catholic Albanians are a 2-3% minority in Kosovo, who reside either in remote villages like Meja or in the city. Meja in Gjakova is just on the route to Albania, the final destenation point of those refugees.

Please refrain from editing the article again until you have clear written proof that the majority of the victims of the massacre were Catholics. KazaziShkodra (talk) 18:21, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

The burden of proof lies with those making assertions about the victims’ religious affiliations without evidence. The established demographic context supports the claim that a majority of the victims in Meja were Catholic.

Also, you mentioned that Catholic Albanians represent a 2-3% minority in Kosovo, this statistic does not reflect the religious composition of the local population in Meja at the time of the massacre. Localized demographics can differ significantly from national statistics. Albaniandemocraticnolist (talk) 11:43, 13 October 2024 (UTC)