Talk:Matcha/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

See also: this page's entry on Lamest edit wars

Spelling discussion required

It is important that a discussion of the debate around spelling be on the article so that people spelling this tea in english are aware of their options. It also will help clear up the question as to why there are the two main spellings of maccha and matcha.

207.81.142.43 05:40, 17 May 2007 (UTC)Newshinjitsu

Spelling discussion unnecessary

The spelling discussion takes too much space and should be edited down. All that's needed is to refer to both forms and mention which type of romanization they stem from. The discussion on the relative merits should be done in the articles about romanization of Japanese.

It is pertinent to the article though, because there is confusion as to the "correct" spelling by people who don't hold an interest in the arguments about Japanese romanisation otherwise. —Cohen the Bavarian 17:38, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I dissent. This little blurb is silliness. Somebody who cares about the romanization of Japanese can romanize まっちゃ however he wants to. Should we have a bloody paragraph on romanization in every single Japanese or noncognate language article? Hell, I like the romanization scheme that would call that first city we blew up back in the day "Hirosima." Should I go write a spelling paragraph? ----Mrgalt 01:04, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the spelling discussion is over-long and not well placed, but this last comment by MrGalt should be stricken. I am not sure what MrGalt means in this comment, but at least one obvious interpretation is highly inflammatory, and suggests that 'we' does not include Japanese people. It suggests many other things besides, but I am sure I do not need to spell these out.
The article most definitely needs expansion, including more on history, chemical make-up (many claims concerning anti-oxidants, chlorophyl, etc. are made concerning Maccha), etc.24.207.67.118 23:14, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I just did what I think was a pretty good job of shortening the spelling section to a single paragraph while still retaining all of the information relevant to the article, just to have my edits reverted by this account. As the spelling section is now, it contains more information than is necessary and it is written in a way which furthers a point of view, rather than just presenting the relevant facts. It exaggerates the use of the "maccha" spelling in Japan and makes the assertion that Hepburn romanization is only used to "appease" English speakers. Spacecat2 04:48, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm deleting the spelling section. After checking this article's history, it seems that the person who added the section in the first place basically copied and pasted it from this page, constituting copyright violation. If anyone still thinks a spelling section is needed, please make sure it doesn't violate copyright and that it properly cites sources. Spacecat2 08:10, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

New Shinjitsu argues that "This article should be spelled maccha ..." His argument appeared three times on this page. I'm taking the liberty to replace the redundancy with this note. Jimp 16:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Self-contradiction

I have added this template because the section on Spelling contradicts itself several times. --Purplezart 04:24, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't this be "Matcha"?

Taking interest in the spelling section of this article, I've made it a point to notice what spelling is used on matcha products I see in Japan. So far, I've seen three "matcha"s and only one "maccha". Can anyone give a good reason why this article shouldn't be called "Matcha"? Spacecat2 06:00, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

New Shinjitsu argues that "This article should be spelled maccha ..." His argument appeared three times on this page. I'm taking the liberty to replace the redundancy with this note. Jimp 16:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was Move Duja► 14:40, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

---

I want to rename the article "Matcha". Here are my reasons:

• According to Wikipedia's Manual of Style, Wikipedia uses Revised Hepburn romanization (i.e. "matcha")
• According to the same manual, an English word of Japanese origin should be used in its most common spelling, which in this case is the same as the Hepburn romanization, "matcha".
• The results of a google search for "matcha" outnumber those of a search for "maccha", even when limited to .jp sites.

Spacecat2 06:41, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Support move to "matcha" according to Manual of Style Fg2 07:04, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Support. More common romanization. LordAmeth 10:44, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Support per nom. ConDem^Talk 15:35, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Support per nom. -- Exitmoose 23:45, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Support per nom Jimp 04:33, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Support per Ameth. John Smith's 15:29, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

This article should be called Maccha

This article should be spelled maccha for the following reasons:

1. Japanese people spell 抹茶 "maccha". This is evident by popular use. It is well laid out in the "Spelling" section.

2. "Matcha" spelling is based on the outdated "Hepburn" system. Wikipedia criticized this system in its article on the subject as distorting Japanese phonology.

3. The alphabet, as the French, Germans, Spanish, Italians, etc, would surely agree, is not for English speakers. It is to represent that countries' language. Some Japanese companies spell maccha with a tea, but they are few and marketing their product to an English speaking market.

4. The Japanese keyboard is laid out with the alphabet, rather than having a gigantic keyboard with all the different Japanese characters on it. To spell out 抹茶, one has to type m,a,c,c,h,a. m,a,t,c,h,a would like like this: まt茶 and be meaningless.

Newshinjitsu 21:41, 4 March 2007 (UTC) New Shinjitsu

Wikipedia's standard for romanization is Hepburn. If you want to change that, please argue on Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles). However, please note that this is the English Wikipedia and it's meant for English speakers. If you want to argue about how French, Germans, Spanish, Italians etc should spell it, please go argue on the French, German, Spanish and Italian Wikipedias. Jpatokal 12:41, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

1. I just googled both spellings with the setting "Search Japanese pages". The results:

• about 57,400 Japanese pages for matcha.
• about 31,200 Japanese pages for maccha.

Looks like they also spell it matcha.

2. Since when was Hepburn outdated? I suggest you go to that article you mention and read the section where it describes how widely the system is used. Hepburn is by no means outdated, it is in fact the most widely used system of romanisation in the country.

3. No, the alphabet is not for English only. So, do tell us, what's so brilliant about maccha? If you really want to reflect the Japanese phonology & morphology, you'll be spellng it mattya (or even mattja). Maccha, it seems to me, is nothing but some bastardisation. Whether it's a bastardisation of Hepburn or of Kunrei I can't be sure ... maybe it's the bastard child of them both. No matter how many companies choose to go along with this bastardisation, we have a different standard here. The standard we use at Wikipedia, for better or worse, is Hepburn. You might complain that this is designed for English speakers but guess what ... so is this encyclopædia.

4. It is true that you can't get "抹茶" by typing matcha on a Japanese keyboard. It is true that you can do so by typing maccha. You can also type the mattya I mentioned and get "抹茶". Other alternatives include macchilya, macchixya, mattilya, mattixya, maxtutya, maxtucha, maltutya, maltsutya, maltucha, maltsucha, maxtutixya, maxtuchixya, maltutixya, maltsutixya, maltuchixya, maltsuchixya, maxtutilya, maxtuchilya, maltutilya, maltsutilya, maltuchilya and maltsuchilya. Would you argue that any of these are better than matcha? By the way, you can also type kana in directly.　Jimp 17:29, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I just noticed something funny. The Japanese word in New Shinjitsu's user name itself is spelled in Hepburn, not Kunrei-shiki. In Kunrei-shiki, it would be "sinzitu". Spacecat2 08:25, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

IT IS TRUE, MACCHA IS MORE APPROPRIATE!!!

Spelling it with the "double c" is the traditional way, and is what you will mostly find in Japanese supermarkets. The spelling with the "tc" is more common with North American companies. The debate apparently forms around the "sokuon", what linguists call a guttural stop, found in the middle of the word. The ideographs that make up maccha are matsu (ground) and cha (tea). When they are written together, the Japanese language splices them with a slight pause, known as a "sokuon". The "double c" spelling is more appropriate and it reflects the transliteration method officially recognized by the Japanese government. However, it doesn not come as naturally to English speakers. LETS put our difficulties with pronounciation aside and USE THE MORE APPROPRAITE AND TRADITIONALLY JAPANESE TERM, MACCHA, PLEASE!!!! (http://www.answers.com/topic/maccha ) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.105.121.155 (talk • contribs)

Just to let you know, Answers.com cannot be regarded as a reliable source to back up anything on Wikipedia. This is because Answers.com simply copies its information from Wikipedia. As far as I'm aware the only spelling officially recognised by the Japanese government would be mattya. If you have reliable evidence to the contrary, I'm sure we'd all love to see it.

There are three commonly used standard systems of romanisation of Japanese: Hepburn, Kunrei and Nihonshiki. In Hepburn it's matcha in the other two it's mattya. The spelling maccha conforms to none of these standards. Companies are not bound to standard spellings, they can spell as they wish. They don't, however, set what is appropriate or traditional.

As Jpatokal mentions, Wikipedia uses Hepburn. If you want to have this changed, there's a place for that. If you want it changed to some other standard system, this would make some sense but I wouldn't like your chances. If you want it changed to some nonstandard system, good luck. Jimp 00:01, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about? I live in Japan, and I can tell you that "Matcha" is far more common to see at Japanese supermarkets, or at least the supermarkets I go to. And by the way, the text you quoted is from an older version of the Wikipedia article. And whoever added the text to the article in the first place copied it verbatim from an opinion piece on a tea company's website. (see "Spelling discussion unnecessary" above.)

If you want a platform for your views that badly, go start your own Macchapedia, but please leave Wikipedia alone. Spacecat2 00:16, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I have done more research into this matter and come up with some pretty interesting information. Unfortunately for proponents of matcha, maccha is more commonly used as it is a uniform representation of the small tsu. Hepburn used to alter this to help English speakers without making room for other small tsu applications. Therefore, as of the early 90's, Hepburn was revised once again. It was part of a Japanese government effort to standardise the romaji system and is thus taught widely in Japan and to many JSL students worldwide. All other instances of the small tsu are represented with a doubling of the constanant succeeding the vowel. The official spelling would be mattya in Kunreishiki. However, Hepburn representation such as "fu" instead of Kunrei's "hu", and shi instead of Kunrei's "si", are allowed in this system. Cha, instead of tya is also okay. Both ways are accepted. The t before the c in nicknames such as あっちゃん, which some would have spelled atchan, is uniformly spelled acchan. Matcha is a sort of remnant of Japan until the 80's. So at a JSL level, an academic level, a government level, and a popular Japanese level, maccha is the way it should be spelled (or mattya as another option from the government's perspective). It is unfortunate that this is such a contentious issue. Wikipedia, I would hope, is an environment for informing people of various perspectives. Calling the Japanese Government at 81 ３（５２５３）４１１１ to confirm this fact is always recommended. The Japanese Encyclopedia of Language is also a good source. I'm sure that Wikipedia will eventually recognize this at some point. It isn't the first time that a country has changed the way it widely represents its language in the alphabet.

Newshinjitsu 08:54, 20 March 2007 (UTC) Newshinjitsu

Oh for Pete's sake, Newsinzitu, is a whim on your side really worth adding a two-page long disertation into the article? I would also suggest you look up WP:WEASEL. Who are these proponents and opponents and all the rest of 'em? Can you source a serious academic debate regarding the spelling of this word? For that matter, could you state a scientific source claiming Hepburn is outdated and unjust to the Japanese language? Can you prove that people really get confused whether 'maccha' and 'matcha' are two completely different things? I would think both being green powders you buy at a tea shop would be proof enough that they are one and the same thing... Sheesh.

Actually, for starters, you could source this new romanisation system you talk about. Once the rest of us are privy to this, maybe a serious debate can ensue. TomorrowTime 11:52, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I studied tea ceremony in Japan, and purchased a lot of matcha while I was there. I've also purchased matcha in other countries. In addition, I've done academic research on the topic. Not once, on any commercially produced package of the tea or in any scholarly article (or, for that matter, in any article I've found written by a layperson or a tea practitioner) have I ever seen the English spelling "maccha." As for Newshinjitsu's claims, above, revised Hepburn most certainly does allow for the use of "t" in place of a doubled consonant in some words. In any case, this is an English language encyclopaedia, and English frequently employs spellings of foreign words that differ from the spelling in the original language. I'd also point out that the German, French, Romanian, Swedish, and Simple English Wikipedia articles all use the spelling "matcha." The correct spelling is m-a-t-c-h-a. Exploding Boy 04:15, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Just call the government and ask which is correct. If you don't speak or read Japanese, I am sure they will be able to find a translator. As for sources, an excellent one is the Encyclopedia of Japanese Language. If you want to take this discussion out of the academic arena, and to a popular level, then ask a Japanese person that has not lived abroad, how they spell maccha, and the results will probably be interesting.

I realize that this is a contentious issue. This all started because I saw what I have learned to be an error. I did not expect anybody to care. A simple correction. I understand now that there are multiple perspectives, and I am trying to add to the Wikipedia knowledge base, not replace what exists.

Let's all try to add to this article and make it really interesting. Developing knowledge and sharing ideas is what a popularly edited encyclopedia is all about. 207.81.142.43 09:05, 4 June 2007 (UTC)NewShinjitsu

Incredible eagerness you display, young one. But eagerness alone not enough is.

I've been on and off Japan-related topics on wiki for about a year now, and I can tell you, most people that have responded to you on this talk page and at the Manual of Style page either speak Japanese, live in Japan and have instant access to native speakers, or both. So I would say people here know what they are talking about. Of course, there is always the possibility that you know something we don't, in which case it would be great if you could provide a link to some page discussing the topic. I'm sure most of the other guys, as also myself, would love to learn more of the romanization system you refer to.

However, I for one am not terribly convinced by your arguments. Here's one of the reasons for my suspicions:

(your addition to the article)

"Interestingly, although other Japanese words such as sake are often mispronounced as rhyming with kay, as opposed to the correct key, the spelling is not altered to make the word anglosized."

The word sake is pronounced [sa.kɛ], which would be much closer to rhyming with 'kay' than 'key'. (let's leave the issue of learning Japanese as rhyming with English words leading to terrible pronounciation of the language aside for the moment) This could, of course, be an honest mistake on your side. But if it isn't, than I'm a bit concerned regarding the exactness of anything regarding Japanese linguistics you have to say. Sorry. TomorrowTime 15:22, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I both speak and read Japanese. The correct way to represent a glottal stop is to double the first consonant if the syllable is in the "k", "s", "n", or "m" lines, or if the syllable is a "ta" or a "to," but to use a "t" if the syllable is in the "ch" line ("cha," "chi," "chu," "che," or "cho").

Your claims simply fail all the relevant tests: the spelling "matcha" is correct according to the rules of revised Hepburn; the far greater number of Google hits are found using the spelling "matcha"; all English-language scholarship uses the spelling "matcha"; all English-language non-academic expert writing (such as writing by senior tea practitioners) uses the spelling "matcha."

Even if you were correct, this is still the English-language Wikipedia, and as such we use the correct English spellings of foreign words, if they exist and differ from the spelling in the original language. For example, we spell 京都 and 相撲 "Kyoto" and "sumo" in English, although strictly speaking the correct romanizations would be "kyōto" and "sumō." We also have an article titled "Korea," whereas the preferred spelling according to the Korean government would be "Corea."

In any case, I've just consulted Hadamitsky and Spahn's Kanji Dictionary, the most authoritative source on such matters, and it gives the spelling m-a-t-c-h-a. The incorrect spelling "maccha" should be removed from the article. Exploding Boy 18:52, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and in regards to the pronuciation of certain Japanese words ending in the syllables "ke" (and "se," "te," "ne," "he," "me," "ye," "re" and "we"), the correct pronunciation in Japanese is (roughly) "~ay," not "~ey." When we speak in English we tend to pronounce words like "karaoke" (ka-ra-oh-kay) as "ka-ri-oh-key," just as we pronounce "Hiroshima" with the emphasis on the 3rd syllable in English, rather than the 2nd as is correct in Japanese. This is fine when speaking English, but not in an academic article. Exploding Boy 18:57, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I cleaned up the spelling debate a lot. I placed matcha on the top because it is recognised by Wikipedia. It is still relevant because, well, just call the Agency for Cultural Affairs. Call the ISO. I put their contact info in the article (is that okay, is there a way to make that better?)

Also, I added some different articles, reviews, and books to check out. I deleted my silly error on sake (DUH) I can't believe I wrote that wrong.

Anyhow, let's make it sound more professional and please, just google maccha before you delete this debate. It is relevant because people do spell it this way, even if it is less than those who spell it matcha. More than mattya anyway.

Also, help on the references. I can't figure out the code. I included the references in the Edit section and it is so far invisible on the actual article.

Newshinjitsu 09:33, 5 June 2007 (UTC)NewShinjitsu

Here is an interesting online source. Look at the date. Call the Japanese government for an update on what they did. http://www.cic.sfu.ca/tqj/JapaneseStudy/romaji.html

I think it's fair to note that the word is occasionally spelled maccha, and I've added a note saying so. However, your lengthy rant about why it should be spelled that way is original research, which is not allowed, and completely offtopic for an article about a variety of powdered tea. As you can see from this Talk page, the consensus on this matter is 100% against you, so please stop reverting. Jpatokal 11:26, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more. Let's move past this. Also, I changed the reference to Chan to Zen, because that is the English name for the movement, as well as the Japanese one. I hope that's ok. Alexwoods 14:23, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, let us improve on the article. Deleting information you do not agree with is very unethical. Please read it and improve it. I am curious if anyone read the Japanese Study article?

Newshinjitsu 06:50, 6 June 2007 (UTC)NewShinjitsu

Also, will the person who keeps changing also to occasionally stop doing so. The correct term is also. I understand the opinion that it is not used often and that it is not correct. But that is an opinion. Also is a far more accurate word because it does not bely opinion. Encyclopedia writing is something I obviously still have a long way to improve on, but I think 84,000+ Google hits for the maccha spelling (to use thea argument that was used against me in this context) demands at least that "occasionally" is not accurate. Please stop changing that.

Newshinjitsu 08:25, 6 June 2007 (UTC)NewShinjitsu

84,000 vs 1,210,000 is under 7%, so that's pretty occasional to me. But I would be fine with saying "also" instead. Jpatokal 09:32, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

"Occasionally" is the correct term here. "Also" implies an equal number of cases. This is incorrect. And by the way, I've just had a look at some of those "maccha" links. Several of them actually use the correct spelling "matcha." In other words, they're using "maccha" as a kind of redirect. Exploding Boy 15:17, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

"Occasional" would be implying that the spelling is incorrect here. "Also" does not imply the same amount of hits. If they were the same, maybe the article would be called matcha/maccha. Now that the spelling debate has been appropriately moved to its own page, I am not pushing the issue here. Can we not all call a truce and just suffer the word "also"?NewshinjitsuNewShinjitsu

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the spelling is inaccurate according to both Hepburn (matcha) and Kunrei (mattya). Jpatokal 11:12, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. The spelling is incorrect. And I believe we can safely call this debate over. Newshinjutsu's entire contribution history -- 5 months' worth -- has been on the issue of the spelling of this one word. It's time to move on. Exploding Boy 15:20, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Check out the Japanese government's table on romanisation: http://www.bunka.go.jp/kokugo/frame.asp?tm=20070621171031 Nowhere is tch okay. Click backa nd surf around. It shows the ん romanisation. I am looking for proof, other than google hits, that matcha is acceptable in a source that is as reliable as ISO, or Monbusho.

And please stop reversing my edits. Let us add to the knowledge, not delete it.

Newshinjitsu 08:29, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

You are not adding to knowledge, Newshinjitsu. You are instead boring everyone silly. (True, my inner psychopathologist is starting to find you slightly interesting, but not at all in the way that you might hope.) Read Jpatokal's comment (11:12, 7 June 2007) a short distance above. Continue reading Exploding Boy's metacomment (15:20, 7 June 2007) immediately below it. If you're really hung up on ISO romanization, I'll give you a precise URL (no nonsense "Click back nd surf around"): this one. See section 5.4 and 表2; their combination implies that what you're after is mattya. -- Hoary 10:19, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your advice Exploding Boy. However, if you check out the website I posted, that is provided by a very credible source, you will se that matcha is not mentioned. Sokuon are now only represented by a doubling of the constantant following the vowel. Cha is still acceptable, therefore the only options are maccha or mattya.

Newshinjitsu 21:22, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Newshinjitsu, I clicked on your link. It redirects to an uninformative page. Meanwhile, you either haven't bothered to look at or haven't bothered to digest what you have been told. Everyone here is tired of your underinformed obsession with the spelling maccha. Now run along and attend to your coursework. -- Hoary 23:45, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

And hey, if the "constantant" is doubled, wouldn't it be "machcha" then? Jpatokal 17:51, 25 June 2007 (UTC) (dancing the matchacha)

That's a good one, Jpatokal. Think happa, kitte, and futta. Think the common nickname Acchan. Hacchaku. These are transliterated as a doubling of the letter following the vowel. Has anyone called the Cultural Affairs Agency and asked? I understand there is little agreement here, but that would be a really good way to go for somebody.

And Hoary, quit blocking me please. I understand your frustration. Trust me, it is returned. However, let's work peacably on this. I did not add that "also spelled maccha" section. That was there for a long time before I started to learn about Wikipedia. It goes against what you know and I respect that. But there are some solid arguments for it to be there, namely ISO and Japanese government. We disagree about popularity in Japan, granted, but ask a Japanese person to write 抹茶 in rômaji. Not a good scientific approach. The scientific approach is done by the ISO and the government. The ISO is particularly concerned with both uniformity AND popular concensus.

The website I gave you is the Japanese Cultural Affairs official page. I think it is terribly organized, but that table shows what they do. Back up a page and you will have options to check out the "other rules". They mention how to transliterate ん and the sokuon.

But somebody give them a call other than me.

Newshinjitsu 09:02, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

This is what the ISO says, straight from the poor much-beaten dead horse's mouth:

5. 4　二重子音

子音で始まる音節の前に小さな「っ」（表1-72）が来るときは、この記号はやや右寄り（横書きではやや下寄り）に書かれる。このような場合は、次に来る子音を重ねる。

　例：がっこう ＝ gakkô

...

表2 - 非口蓋化音節を表わす２連字の仮名　（原注1）

7 ちゃ チャ tya

Now I know you can't read Japanese, but if the ISO really thinks that you should spell まっちゃ as "maccha", then you should see the letter "c" or the combination "ch" in there somewhere, right? So please count how many times the letter "c" and the combination "ch" appear in the document. Here's a hint: the answers are "zero" and "zero", because according to the ISO, you're supposed to spell まっちゃ as mattya.

There is thus nothing to work on and no issue to revolve, because you are simply and unequivocally wrong. Now please drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass. Jpatokal 10:58, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Interested parties should note that Hoary does not "keep blocking" Newshinjitsu. He blocked him once, in accordance with policy, for a 3RR violation. Note, however, that in accordance with policy, Newshinjitsu may find himself blocked again if he persists in his tendentious editing campaign regarding the spelling of the word matcha. Exploding Boy 18:09, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Health Properties (multiple sections consolidated into one)

"No mention of antioxidant or other health properties": [Undated, unidentified author] Matcha contains EGCG & Catechins, giving it a uniquely high Oxygen Radical Absorbance Capacity. This is poorly referenced in this post. Matcha is also rich in Chlorophyll

"Health benefits section possibly biased": There is a health benefits section but no mention about the possibility of fluorosis because of high fluoride content, or about possible aluminium contamination of some matcha. Of course we should find reliable sources too if adding these... 76.10.128.192 (talk) 16:49, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

"Health Benefits": Can the article please include some mention of health benefits. I notice at least two prior entries on this page regarding health benefits, yet the present article has no section on health benefits. Various (inadequately reliable) websites make health claims, see, for example: http://matchasource.com/health-benefits-of-matcha-tea/ What does a review of reliable sources tell us about the health benefits? Even if there is no reliable evidence of health benefits, it is probably worth mentioning the various claims that are made, and commenting on the reliability of those claims. Thanks! --Lbeaumont (talk) 19:32, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Any discussion of health effects would need WP:MEDRS backing. The page had some poorly-sourced claims in the past and was improved. Alexbrn (talk) 23:42, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, Alexbrn, for the link to the reliable sources guidelines. This article may have been improved but it may also have deteriorated again, since then. The section had claims with footnotes linking to a website selling the product: https://www.marimatcha.com/matcha-101. That website cited a presumably scientific journal and article but no publication date or page number. I replaced the two footnotes linking to the marketing website with 'citation needed', per WP:CITENEED. (I also consolidated three sections regarding health properties into one section here.)

Pre-Japanese Ritual Use?

Is there any evidence for pre-Japanese use of matcha as a sacrament in Chan buddhism? Alexwoods 12:14, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't have any industrial-grade references on had, but everybody seems to pretty much agree that matcha didn't exist in Japan before Zen monk Eisai brought it in from China, which would seem to imply that Zen (Chan) monks in China were using it before. The "sacrament" wording is likely inappropriate though, so I've excised that bit. Jpatokal 13:54, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I don't dispute that it was brought to Japan by Eisai, that is well documented. My issue is with the claim that it was used ritually in Chan Buddhism in China at all. Everything I've read on the origins of the tea ceremony, including the Wikipedia page, indicated that it developed in Japan. Alexwoods 14:09, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

As I recall it was used as an offering, but I don't have a source for that. Exploding Boy 15:56, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Why is it spelled "matcha"?

When written in hiragana, its まっちゃ, which when rominized, is maccha. Can someone explain this?? THROUGH FIRE JUSTICE IS SERVED! 21:50, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

When written in hiragana, its まっちゃ Yes indeed. / which when rominized, is maccha. No. Or anyway not when it's romanized in this way, which for better or worse is the way used within en:WP. And if Japanese weren't romanized in this way, the only obvious alternative would be to romanize it in this way (or a minor variant thereof), which for this word would result not in "maccha" but in mattya. -- Hoary 23:11, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

"Maccha" is the correct spelling. However, some conservative north americans still hold on to a dated version of the Hepburn system. It is similar to spelling espresso "expresso", a spelling with a history, but not used by the Italians. More info under espresso. ~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Goatea (talk • contribs) 07:40, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Sigh. There is no version of any standardized system under which まっちゃ is romanized "maccha". Jpatokal (talk) 10:21, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

No textbook written after 2000 will have matcha in it. Only maccha. When I was in Japan, my profs explained this to me. Ask any Japanese person to write maccha and they will spell it maccha. The government is trying to clean up Hepburn, and the tc was one of the things to go because it's rare inside the country to spell this way. "Kit Kat"'s chocolate bar has maccha spelled on it, etc. It's just the north americans. ~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Goatea (talk • contribs) 23:20, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Regardless of opinion, why doesn't this article say also spelled maccha? I tried writing that and it got deleted. People should know it's not a spelling mistake to spell it maccha. ~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Goatea (talk • contribs) 23:22, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

We won't budge on the issue. Even if we would, we would ask you to prove Wikipedia:Reliable sources which *explicitly* say that maccha is used instead of matcha. We beg ourselves to the US LOC system. WhisperToMe (talk) 03:49, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

This non-issue is dead, as explained here. And a redirect from "maccha" to "matcha" fixes everything. -- Hoary (talk) 23:46, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I totally took your advice and read the archived discussion. I called the Japanese Language Division and they said they don't recognize "matcha" as legitimate. They said only "maccha" and "mattya" are legit. They also said most people spell it "maccha", and they are okay with that.

~~goatea —Preceding unsigned comment added by Goatea (talk • contribs) 06:55, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

The Japanese Language Division, you say? Care to share the phone number? Jpatokal (talk) 07:20, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh wow... :D TomorrowTime (talk) 08:25, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

The number is +81-3-5253-4111 Ask for the language division. Goatea (talk) 11:01, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Hey, that's Monbukagakusho's switchboard. I'm almost, but not quite, tempted to try! Jpatokal (talk) 13:52, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I have never seen the spelling "maccha" in Japan. Or outside Japan either, for that matter. Only in a few cases online. "Matcha" is by far and away the most common spelling. And I've never seen any romaji at all on the Kit Kat Matcha: it's written in kanji. Also, as indicated previously, Monbusho has nothing to do with how we write Japanese words in English. Why must we go through this continually?

By the way, it's also worth noting (although it doesn't have direct influence on how we spell it here) that every other language Wikipedia article on the tea spells it like we do, including the Chinese article. Exploding Boy (talk) 17:41, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

It's also worth noting that Goatea's sole contributions have been to this discussion. Perhaps s/he's simply a new manifestation of the last objector? Exploding Boy (talk) 17:47, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the vote of confidence Exploding Boy. It's interesting that there is no way that you guys are open to the possibility that you might be wrong. I mean I don't really care either way. I just thought it was interesting cuz I have seen different spellings and I like the tea. It's kind of sad for all those companies who spell it matcha, I would say. But if you guys think the Japanese government has no rights over the spelling of the word, then enjoy your little matcha club. I'm sure there will be more and more people who start to question this. But as long as the same 5 people keep tabs on this article, I'm sure you can fend them off. Good luck people. And it would be interesting if one of you did try phoning and explained your case to the government. You might come across as open minded to change. Peace. Goatea (talk) 03:48, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

And for the record, I am a different "objector". Goatea (talk) 03:52, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Please do not archive. It is important that this article remains open for others to voice their opinion. Goatea (talk) 07:29, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

This non-issue has been done to death, Goatea. Enough. -- Hoary (talk) 12:22, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I think this article should be renamed to maccha. This matcha spelling is embarassing. The only argument for it is that Google search finds matcha more than maccha. When a person searches for maccha, they generally search for maccha and turn it into 抹茶, which come up a lot in Google. Anyhow, it would seem that no matter how many Japanese profs, looking at packaging from Japan, talking with Japanese people, they all spell it maccha. The ones who know matcha, just are aware of it as a strange phenomenon.

What I am talking about here is ego. To think that we, as English speakers, can claim that such a word is under our jurisdiction to define? And such a new word for the english speaking mainstream. It would be much more respectful to get off this matcha trip and start spelling it correctly.

If you agree, please post in here. This issue is embarassing to have up and does a lot of damage. There are some tea instructors who accidentally spell it with a t because of this article. Yegads. The good news is that a number of tea schools have already updated their curriculum, like the VCC in Vancouver.

- NipponDancer —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.68.109.177 (talk) 09:32, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

→ Hepburn romanization. Jpatokal (talk) 10:31, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Stolen Article

Large parts of this article have been copy pasted from http://www.afternoonteaparty.com/2006/12/08/matcha-green-tea/ --Rektide (talk) 19:01, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Or maybe you're being too rash. That blog entry states this article as one of its sources... TomorrowTime (talk) 20:30, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with TomorrowTime. Also look at the date the article was received on afternoonteaparty.com (it says December 8, 2006). Then go to the Wikipedia article Matcha (not the Talk page) and click History. Scroll down to the last version before that and click it to see what was on Wikipedia before it was on afternoonteaparty. I think you'll agree the copying and pasting went the other way. Fg2 (talk) 20:39, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Korean name

Powdered green tea appears to be used in some Korean products. What is the Korean name? Badagnani (talk) 03:22, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Probably it's the Korean pronunciation of 抹茶. However I'm not sure we need to include it - whatever it is - in the article as it's not clear how that would be relevant. I don't think matcha is particularly popular in Korea and I note that there doesn't seem to be a Korean-language Wikipedia page for it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexwoods (talk • contribs) 13:41, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Powdered green tea is mentioned at hotteok. I think it's used as an ingredient in some special kinds of noodles too. Badagnani (talk) 18:19, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

So it would be 말차 (malcha). This item shows up extensively on Korean websites: [1] Badagnani (talk) 18:36, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Good detective work, but I don't see how this is relevant to the article. There is no page for 말차 in the Korean wiki, and only 29,000 google hits, most of which seem to be referring to the Japanese product. By way of contrast, the English term gets over 900,000 hits and the kanji / hanzi over 7 million. The most I would say about that is that Japanese matcha appears to be known in Korea, which is not really information that should be in the article, unless you want to start a section of countries in which matcha is known to exist. It's clearly not a popular drink in Korea the way green tea is. If you feel like putting some energy into this subject, I for one would love to see more info on Wikipedia about native Korean green teas. Alexwoods (talk) 20:27, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Spelling redux

Blech... just read through The Great Matcha/Maccha/Mattya Spelling Debate. Fun stuff. I can understand the revert of my recent edit, but hear me out. I'm not proposing a page move or a change in emphasis. While I admit to having very little knowledge of romanization schemes, as the reference I posted says, the "Maccha" spelling is in actual use (though a Google search, along with my own experience, suggests it's very much in the minority). I understand the bad blood over the spelling debate, carried over from Gotea/Newshinjitsu's little crusade, but I can't think of any ways in which the two extra words "or Maccha" have a negative effect on readers, and I can think of a couple of positive effects. --Sneftel (talk) 14:25, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Basically it boils down to "well, if Maccha, then why not Mattya?".

AFAIK there is no WP-wide policy on alternate names, but Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) suggests that "Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language [...]) are permitted and should be listed in alphabetic order of their respective languages". Obviously matcha is not a place; but on a quick Google I get 110k hits for maccha vs 1.6M matcha, which comes out to less than 10%. Jpatokal (talk) 12:05, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Jpatokal that it's not necessary, or desirable, to list exhaustively the spellings of the word. That's better done in a dictionary than an encyclopedia, anyway. I think the suggestion on geographic names is intended to cover one place with multiple languages or nations in its history, for example, Strasbourg. The cutoff of 10% is sensible for avoiding many edit wars, while being fair and uniform to people who speak the languages or are citizens of the countries. Powdered tea doesn't have such a constituency, so I wouldn't think we'd have to be as careful to be fair since there aren't groups of people whose native romanization is Kunrei-shiki or wāpuro. Wikipedia has developed a systematic style guide for representing Japanese using letters. I vigorously argued against some aspects of the guide (although nothing related to writing maccha) but I lost. For consistency across articles, I recommend sticking to Wikipedia romanization, for better or for worse. And if maccha, why not "Zyoudo Sinnsyuu" or "Yagyû Jyûbê"? We'd be both divided and unsystematic if we okayed random variances from policy. It would become harder for readers to figure out what we mean. Fg2 (talk) 12:44, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I think the redirect is more than sufficient in this case. Exploding Boy (talk) 17:18, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Matcha is not the same as powdered sencha

Currently the article wrongly gives the impression that matcha = "powdered green tea". But that would mean powdered sencha = matcha, obviously false. --C S (talk) 09:16, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I see the correct information is in the production section but the beginning of the article and infobox gives the wrong impression. So I will change it. --C S (talk) 09:17, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

The infobox gives alternative names in actual use, and matcha is referred to in English as "powdered tea" [2], not "a particular form of powdered tea". Jpatokal (talk) 19:01, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me, but I looked through several pages of your helpful Google search on "powdered tea" and it does little to establish that the alternative English name of "Matcha" is "powdered tea". In fact, most of the hits are for terms such as "Matcha powdered tea" or "Matcha, powdered tea used in the Japanese tea ceremony". Please give some references, preferably good authoritative ones, for the fact(?) that the English term for "matcha" is "powdered tea". --C S (talk) 00:11, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not claiming it's "the" English term, the infobox is just there to state that it's one possible alternative term. And it is: here's a Google search for pages with "japanese powdered tea" minus matcha/maccha/macha, and it gets ~8000 hits, virtually all of which seem to refer to matcha. There's even a dictionary that translates English "powdered tea" as Japanese "matcha". Jpatokal (talk) 05:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

The fact that some random online dictionary gives the translation of "matcha" as "powdered tea" does not make that true, nor does it establish "powdered tea" (or "Japanese powdered tea") as a common alternative term for "matcha". Even if the ~8000 G-hits were using the term "powdered tea" in the context of matcha, e.g. japanese tea ceremony equipment, their use of "powdered tea" as in "bowl used to grind tea leaves into powdered tea" hardly establishes "powdered tea" as an alternate term for "matcha" anymore than referring to a Chevrolet Corvette as a sports car establishes the term "sports car" as being an alternative term for "Corvette". Another example: "In sado, special powdered tea, different from ordinary Japanese tea is chiefly used. The powdered tea is put into a teacup..." It seems to me that virtually all the hits are of this variety, using "powdered tea" as descriptive in a particular context, but not implying that "powdered tea" = "matcha". Indeed, this example makes it clear that they are referring to a "special powdered tea". In an eBay ad description, one can hardly expect a high level of clarity. Can you give me a single, authoritative source that explains that "Japanese powdered tea" is a common, established English usage meaning "matcha", rather than say "powdered tea" from Japan? Please do me the courtesy of actually doing some research and providing sources. This habit of yours of giving me Google search links which so easily and miraculously prove your point is getting wearisome, since it actually takes me a while to look through the results only to find the results are not so conclusive. --C S (talk) 05:33, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Here's four.

WWWJDIC. Search for "powdered tea" with "Restrict to common words only", get "matcha" as the only result.

EUDict. Search for English "powdered tea", get Japanese "matcha".

FreeDict. Search for "powdered tea", get "matcha" as the only result.

Saiga-JP. Search for "powdered tea", get "matcha" as the only result. Jpatokal (talk) 11:22, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

There are three different kinds of powdered tea in Japan. Matcha/抹茶, Funmatsucha/粉末茶 and Konacha/粉茶. It's so sad that there is only one name in English but I think it's correct to describe matcha as "a particular form of powdered tea". Oda Mari (talk) 06:39, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Chlorophyll and tannins

One section states: "Also, as a result of chlorophyll's relationship to tannin, younger growth is greener and more vibrant in colour, while more developed leaves further down the plant have had their chlorophyll convert gradually into tannin[citation needed], giving a more bitter flavour and duller brown-green colour profile."

Granted, it has "citation needed," but you will never find a citation for this statement because chlorophylls and tannins are not chemically related. As a chemist, I would recommend removing this statement until somebody produces a scientific reference for this assertion (i.e. not one from some guy selling tea).

138.162.0.44 (talk) 19:46, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Sounds sensible. The "chlorophyll convert gradually into tannin" thing was odd news to me too, so I've deleted this line per the "Zero information is preferred to misleading or false information"[3] doctrine and http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/plants/toxicagents/tannin.html 62.147.27.134 (talk) 12:55, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Additional English source

The only source for the measurements given in the usucha/koicha recipes is the Yahoo Encyclopedia in Japanese, which is not ideal sourcing. I found one good how-to page in English that has all the good data and could serve as a secondary footnote to backup the Japanese-language ones: http://www.yuuki-cha.com/matcha_green_tea_powder.php

Obviously, it's hosted on a commercial website (I'm unrelated to them) and I have just scrubbed the article from 4 spammy links[4][5][6] (because they added no value per WP:EL or were plain wrong), so I don't want to look like I'm adding this one instead. But I really think it is good enough for sourcing the recipes, so I suggest that you look at it and decide whether to use it as a second source for that section. 62.147.27.134 (talk) 13:10, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

"Exploded"?

The article rather casually claims that "matcha outside Japan is often exploded" (as opposed to stone ground). What does this mean, and can it possibly be correct? 75.156.6.118 (talk) 06:34, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

It was incomprehensible. I removed it. Thank you for pointing that out. Oda Mari (talk) 15:36, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Popular in japan?

first sentences should state made in Japan. icetea8 (talk) 12:49, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Matcha originated in China, and today most over 90% of the matcha supply is made in China. Matcha is culturally more relevant to the Japanese than it is to the chinese, because in Japan it is considered the to be high quality tea, and in china it is considered low qualitity tea. Thus it is accurate it say it is most polular in japan, but it not to say it comes from Japan. RevDan (talk) 02:58, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Not all powdered tea is matcha. As the article says, powdered tea originates from China, but matcha refers specifically to the ceremonial tea prepared from gyokuro leaves, which (AFAIK) is not drunk in China at all. Jpatokal (talk) 10:44, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

What you are quoting is marketing hype from a website. 抹茶 (mo-cha/matcha) and the tea ceremony know today in japan, have their origins in the song dynasty of china, and is refereed to in ancient Chinese text. Matcha was known in Japan since the 11th century, long before 玉露 (gyokuro) was invented in year 1835. By covering the tea plants in Japan, they sought to replicate the low light conditions of the misty mountain tea fields in China. When I said 90% of the worlds matcha supply comes from china I'm not referring to "green tea powder". 75.149.62.182 (talk) 03:00, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Again, powdered green tea comes from China, and the article already says so; but matcha in its current form and the current process for making it were developed in Japan, and the stuff is not even drunk any more in China.

Also, the "origin" label in the infobox is there to say where the tea is currently produced (=Japan), not where the plant "originally" comes from. Jpatokal (talk) 12:22, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Even most of the matcha sold by Japanese tea companies is grown in China (a fact that they don't openly advertise) The origin is China no matter how you want to look at it. But since the most prestigious and well know matcha comes from Japan, I will concede to Japan being in the infobox along with China. I hope you can see the generosity of this compromise. 75.149.62.182 (talk) 01:13, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Please provide sources, 75.149.62.182. Thank you. Oda Mari (talk) 06:12, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Preparation quantities?

The article says -

Usucha, or thin tea, is prepared with approximately 1.75 grams[9] (amounting to 1.5 heaping chashaku scoop, or about half a teaspoon i.e. level teaspoon) of matcha...

and

Koicha, or thick tea, requires significantly more matcha (usually about doubling the powder and halving the water): approximately 3.75 grams[10] (amounting to 3 heaping chashaku scoops, or about one teaspoon i.e. full teaspoon) of matcha...

It's entirely unclear what is meant by the teaspoon portion of this. A teaspoon is a fairly exact unit of measurement. "Half a teaspoon" is half a teaspoon. I have one in my kitchen, when I fill it with something, leveled off, that is half a teaspoon ... it is not a "level teaspoon" - a teaspoon is a "level teaspoon". Then Koicha goes on to say it is "about one teaspoon", but Usucha is a "level teaspoon" and Koicha is supposed to be roughly double ... and "i.e. full teaspoon" doesn't help any ... what does that mean? A heaping teaspoon (which is not an exact measurement and should probably be avoided)? If Usucha is made with one level teaspoon and Koicha is made with double, it should be two level teaspoons, a.k.a. "two teaspoons" ...

Could someone please provide some clarification so this can be cleaned up? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Polaris75 (talk • contribs) 16:29, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Based on the conversions here [7], the initial amounts (half teaspoon for usucha, full for koicha) seem correct. Fixing article now. Jpatokal (talk) 21:40, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Temperature

Seeking a reliable source for the water temperature in the article. It currently reads 80°C -- this sounds far too hot for matcha. But if it can be referenced, then so be it. --Ds13 (talk) 02:57, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

One of the major matcha producers in Japan recommends 75-85°C in winter and 70-80°C in summer, so 80°C sounds right in the ball park. [8] Jpatokal (talk) 11:07, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

_____

Hi. On the off-chance that anyone's still invested in this entry, 80° isn't too hot for matcha at all. And nor is 90°. I'm looking for a non-commercial source.

Many Japanese people use even hotter water. In some schools of traditional tea ceremony, the water is kept audibly 'sighing' before it's introduced to the bowl, if you're interested: indication of skill with the coals, aesthetic quality of the sound, keeping the tea hot for several people to sip the bowl, matcha tastes fine when you use hot water..!

It's counter-intuitive but matcha doesn't respond to heat like leaf teas do. Horaido make theirs in the shop with fresh boiled water, for example, and recommend it on their site too (check it out:) They're a famous old matcha seller in Kyoto. I've stuck this in the entry for now since there are no links to their tea and indicates that yes, the Japanese do make matcha with water at 90° and hotter, but acknowledge we need a source that's not from a shop.

188.177.37.126 (talk) 11:01, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

References

Production

Could anyone offer any clarification on this sentence

"This slows down growth, turns the leaves a darker shade of green and causes the production of amino acids."

All plants are constantly producing amino acids regardless of growth rate so I imagine the author is indicating some amino acids in particular which are not normally produced. I cannot seem to find which they may be though Lady of the dead (talk) 15:43, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Origin?

In the history, it says the origin is Chinese, but the origin on the matcha information on the side says it is Japan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fatman210 (talk • contribs) 05:05, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Commercial information

Could you add some rough commercial information, such as "x% (0000 Tm) of the world matcha is produced in China, y% in Japan". "n% of the production is consumed in Japan",... Thank you. --Error (talk) 17:59, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

A very healthy alternative

Matcha is also a very healthy alternative to regular green tea.

I can believe that this is true. And ditto for water, herb tea, coffee, and more.

But I'm no expert. Maybe matcha is somehow healthier than the others. If so, let's see reliable, disinterested sources for this. -- Hoary (talk) 13:16, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

A few points

There are several facts that are not supported by reliable resources. The links that are available for an article/website do work. Health benefits of drinking matcha can be added.Shonoac (talk) 22:27, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

Total free amino acids

"Shading results in an increase in caffeine, total free amino acids, including theanine, but also reduces the accumulation of flavonoids (catechins) in leaves".

What does "total free amino acids" mean?

ICE77 (talk) 07:09, 17 June 2021 (UTC)